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Featured Do calvinists believe that God wills them to sin?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by sunlover1, Apr 18, 2018.

  1. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    You didn’t really answer the questions

    And when God withdraws from man they are left to their own selves in their sin.

    I could ask the questions another way

    1. When a Christian does iniquity or sin dies God make him do it?

    2. When a Christian denies the Lord does God make him do it?

    3.when a Christian lies does God make him do it

    The point here is that if a person is lost or a believer and they do iniquity or deny God or lie etc God does not make the do it. They choose their own ways and not God’s way showing that they have a will that can oppose God’s will.

    But John is saying that what all men do, whether they are lost or found, is actually God doing it and making them do it like robots
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018
  2. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    He wouldn’t even agree that for his idea to be correct it cannot contradict any of the scriptures. :(
     
  3. Jennifer Rothnie

    Jennifer Rothnie Well-Known Member

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    God planning for and making good of the evil of man doesn't mean He willed those people to sin (vs. knowing they would sin, and how they would sin, and utilizing that to ensure His plan of redemption would be fulfilled.)

    Acts 4:27-28 "Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your purpose and counsel had predestined should happen."

    What did God predestine? Christ's death! Jesus even mentions this a number of times, as does OT prophecy (Mk 10:45, I Cor 15:3, etc.) This doesn't mean God predestined the sin of Pilate and every other individual among the Gentiles or Jews.

    Indeed, Jesus clarifies that while His death is sure, that doesn't mean God wills any individual in particular to sin (vs. knowing they will): "For the Son of Man is going as it has been decreed, but woe to that one by whom he is betrayed!" (Luke 22:22) [Notice a reference here again to Jesus being delivered over to the earthly authorities by God's foreknowledge and will.]

    Jesus clarifies this even further in Mk 10:33 - there is no ambiguity about what is God's will (Christ's death, Christ's deliverance into the power of the Jews) and what is not God's will but rather God's good made out of man's evil (the individual crimes committed by people leading up to the crucifixion.)

    ""We are going up to Jerusalem," he said, "and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles, who will mock Him and spit on Him and flog Him and kill Him." Mk 10:33

    God's will/plan/counsel decreed that Jesus be delivered over to the Jews (which is why Jesus went willingly) but did not will (vs. know and plan for) specifically for Judas to betray Jesus. The Jews (not God, but again Christ submitted willingly) then delivered Jesus over to the Gentiles and pressured the Romans to crucify Him. The Romans, not God, killed Christ and God never gave them permission or reason to do so.

    [Note: If God commands or wills a sin, then the responsibility for that sin would lie with God - just as a military commander is responsible for any wrongdoing a subordinate commits while following his own orders. Even if the soldier could be held partially responsible for the crime to, the commander bears a larger portion of the 'guilt.'

    Gen 50:19-20 Doesn't state that God willed for the evil actions of the brothers. Rather, it contrasts man's purpose with God's purpose. While the brothers were plotting for evil, God was planning for good. That doesn't mean God had to will the evil actions! Rather, God 'plotted' for good, looking to man's future and the famine to come, so Joseph coming to Egypt was intended by God for good. He knew the heart of the brothers. (It is possible God influenced Judah to be merciful to his brother and not kill him, as well, yet left them to their own hearts on whether or not to sell Joseph when the traders came by.) God later influenced Joseph's life on a number of occasions as well, such as giving him dream interpretations or increasing his favor among those who knew him to help him rise in position. God didn't need to "will sin" in any of those circumstances.

    Habakkuk 1:5-6 Again shows God's influence over history but does not show Him willing sin. God is going to give power to the Chaldeans (it is not sinful to give a leader military strength or power.) God knows what the Chaldeans will do with that power, but doesn't will any specific sins of the Chaldeans. What God wills He cannot punish, for he bears the blame of authority. The Chaldeans would subject the Israelites, but they would later be punished for their own crimes (such as in Dan 5:30 and elsewhere.)
     
  4. HosannaHM

    HosannaHM Christian Saved by Grace

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    So a couple things:
    1. I did answer your questions, but I will answer the revised ones as well.
    2. I don't necessarily endorse everything John is saying. It's not blind fatalism, it's about what I've seen you state before- rightly dividing the Word of truth. I think we should all be striving for that outcome no matter what side of the argument we stand on.

    Now these questions:
    1. No God does not make men sin. He doesn't have to. The same way you don't have to make a dog bark or a cat meow. It's natural. That is a valid response to your question

    2. No, God doesn't make people refuse.

    3. Again no, God doesn't make Him lie, murder, steal(sin) It's not our sin that makes us sinners. We sin because we are sinners.
     
  5. Jennifer Rothnie

    Jennifer Rothnie Well-Known Member

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    While there is some dispute over where 'from the foundation of the world' should connect to, the plain reading of the Greek favors connecting it with the lamb. This also fits with the word use of John 17:24 and the thought of I Pet 1:19-20 and Matt 25:34. Connecting it with 'written' would have a parallel in Rev 17:8, but not enough to make it the stronger reading. Indeed the arguments for connecting it to written do not rely on support that shows it is a better translation from the Greek, but appeal to the phrase seeming 'confusing' if applied to the lamb.
     
  6. Jennifer Rothnie

    Jennifer Rothnie Well-Known Member

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    God didn't will Adam and Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit. He specifically commanded (willed) them not to! And it is due to their sin that humanity became fallen in nature.

    I assume you are referring to *creation* in Rom 8 that was subject to 'vanity' (aka the curse.) This was a punishment from God for man's sin. Rom 8:21 gives the purpose clause for God subjected creation to futility and not just punishing man: "that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God."

    The creation longs for its future redemption. All the worries of the world about the state of the planet, natural disasters, hunger, etc. - they will all be solved at the restoration of all things when the Earth is also brought into glory and made new. This is educational, I guess, as we believers can look at this and think that just as the Earth will put on new garments, so will we!

    Remember, though, that the fallen state of man and creation is a punishment by God. God ordains punishments (Lake of Fire, Ancient Israel's earthly subjection to another country, etc.) and can even harden people in their own stubbornness and love of sin, but that doesn't mean He ordains the crime. God knows and plans for events to be turned to His purpose - but that doesn't mean He has to will that any particular person commit a particular sin.
     
  7. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    Hi; Romans 8 is certainly a profound and pivotal chapter! :)
     
  8. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    I asked when a "christian sins" or denies God or lies etc


    whose choice is it for them to sin or lie or deny God?

    this verse sort of answers it

    Isaiah 66 - 3. He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.”

    God says they did that which he delighted not and chose their own ways
     
  9. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    But John is saying that God does all things and makes men sin . This is what the teaching that says men have no will, or freewill does. It makes God the author of sin and it accuses God of all the evils in the universe. It is a horrible blasphemous doctrine

    does God make men blaspheme the Holy Ghost? God forbid, God would never do this. (don't answer that question) i don't want any to blaspheme.

    so when men do such things it is of their own will and not Gd forcing them.
     
  10. Jennifer Rothnie

    Jennifer Rothnie Well-Known Member

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    It being the Lord's will that Christ suffer and die as a sacrifice doesn't mean God ordered Christ crucified! If God had ordered it, there would be no need for Christ to cry "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" since they would have just been following orders.

    This is both a misunderstanding of predestination and sovereignty and an unfair mischaracterization of other Christians.

    #1 Sovereignty doesn't, and never has, meant absolute determination of the movement of every person and molecule under one's control. Rather, sovereignty is a term of Dominion - the power and right to make and enforce rules and laws. A sovereign may delegate, allow freedom within bounds, punish wrongdoers, etc. A sovereign does not have to micromanage, and it would be a poor sovereign who forced his people to break the laws he himself made.

    How does God's supreme sovereignty, in particular, play out? Here are: some ways

    * He makes provision for nature and man (I Chron 29:12-15, James 1:17, Psalm 84:3, Psalm 104:14-23, Psalm 104:27-30, Psalm 12:5, Matt 6:26)

    * He tasks us as His servants to perform His will (Acts 1:8, Rom 12:2, II Cor 10:13-15, Matt 14:13, I Thess 5:12-18, I Pet 2:15, Heb 10:36, I Cor 4:1, Rom 2:13)

    * He gives us power to perform His will (Ex 10:1-20, Rev 11:6, Acts 1:8, Heb 11; Phil 2:12-13, Ezra 6:1-12, I Peter 4:10, Mark 16:15-18, Isaiah 45:1-7)

    * He sets the standard of righteousness (Rom 1:17, Psalm 18:30, Eph 2:3, Psalm 119:3, Deut 32:4, PSalm 145:17, Isaiah 5:16, Isaiah 51:6, Dan 9:14, Jer 9:24)

    * He punishes the wicked and is the final judge of the fate of man (I Pet 3:10-12, Rev 20:11-15, Isaiah 13:11, Rom 6:23, Psalm 145:20, Rom 2:6-10, II Thess 2:8)

    * He sets the rules by which deliverance, forgiveness, and pardon are obtained (Num 25:22-29, Jer 26:1-6, II Chron 7:14, John 3:16, Heb 10:11-18, Luke 4:14-21, Heb 9:22, Matt 5:29, Isiah 45:22-25)

    * He makes righteous laws and decrees (Ex 19:12-23, Lev 20:8, Psalm 93:5, Num 23:19, Deut 6:1, Rom 1:32, Rom 5:18, Rom 10:4)

    * He appoints others to carry out His decrees [God delegates] (Heb 1:14, Matt 25:14-30, Hab 1:6, Zech 11:16, Amons 6:4, Acts 3:26, Gal 4:6, John 3:31-36, II Chron 18:21, I Kings 14:14, I John 4:10)

    *He punishes the servants that do not follow his decrees (Matt 25:24-30, II Pet 2:4-22, Mal 3:17-18, Matt 18:21-35, )

    * He binds even time and space to subject to His eternal plan (Heb 4:7, Rom 16:25-27, Rom 8:22-25, Rev 21:21, II Pet 3:3-10, I Cor 2:7, I Pet 1:20, Isaiah 46:9-10, Acts 2:23)

    * His kingdom is eternal and cannot be destroyed by man or Satan (Dan 7:13-27, Eph 1:15-23, I Chron 29:10-13, Rev 1:18, II Pet 1:10-11, Psalm 145:13, Dan 6:26, Dan 2:44, Matt 6:19-20)

    The ability for man to act in obedience under God's commands, or rebel and disobey and God's authority to punish, is actually a mark of God's supreme sovereign power. Believing that man has a free will to act and choose obedience in no way contradicts or minimizes God's power and kingship.

    [Question: Is God sovereign or do we have a free will?
    See Answer: Is God sovereign or do we have a free will?]

    #2 Predestination, as per the Greek, means to 'pre-limit' or 'set boundaries beforehand.' It does not have connotations of the English term 'destiny.' God setting the limits and boundaries of the sea is an example of predestination, but God determining the motion of every water molecule and every wave is not.

    * He puts boundaries and limits on nature. (Jer 5:22, Job 38:4-41, Job 9:4-9, Psalm 104:1-13, Lev 26:3-5, II Chron 7:11-16, Jer 8:7, Jer 10:13)

    * He puts boundaries and limits on the life and history of man and the nations (Job 14:5, Acts 17:26, Num 34:1-12, II Chron 13:4-18, I Kings 9:5, Psalm 2:1-12, Jer 45:4, Luke 12:25, II Kings 7:1-20, Gen 22:8-14, Isaiah 45:9-13, Dan 4:34, Dan 2:21)

    * God predestined the plan of salvation to include Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers (Eph 3:2-6, Rom 3:21-31, Rom 9:1-26, Rom 15:5-13, John 1:11-13, Isa 45:9-10, Rom 9:11-16, etc).

    [How are predestination and election connected with foreknowledge?
    See Answer: How are predestination and election connected with foreknowledge?]

    People aren't somehow rejecting Christ or scripture by rejecting one proposed earthly interpretation of scripture. All Christians grow in knowledge as they walk with Christ (II Pet 1:3-11.) Not having perfect knowledge or rejecting one earthly theory among many doesn't mean they are rejecting scripture, especially if they base their rejection of that theory in scripture.

    I agree that that is your personal opinion, that Calvinism is debatable, and that soteriology can be a difficult subject to tackle.

    The substance of this argument of yours I am responding to adds no scripture or new theological angle to the discussion, but relies on criticizing half of the church as rejecting scripture and diminishing God. If offering criticism instead of substance is a concern for you, than I suggest you look to your own writings.
     
  11. HosannaHM

    HosannaHM Christian Saved by Grace

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    Okay I see where you're going. I've kind of touched on this a bit, but I'm not sure if it's being understood.

    In the negative it is true: People "choose" to sin. That doesn't make it an open and shut case for free will. The question is not do people choose to sin. They do, and they do it willingly. The better question is why do people sin?
    Sinning is what people do because they are sinners. In contrast, no one can do good apart from the work of God. They have to be given a new heart to "will" what is righteous
     
  12. HosannaHM

    HosannaHM Christian Saved by Grace

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    Which I don't agree with. God doesn't make men sin. He doesn't have to.

    It also depends on how we are defining our terms. "Free will" is almost relative depending on who is using the phrase.
     
  13. RC1970

    RC1970 post tenebras lux

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    I agree, God must grant us a new heart. But, where did we get our old "sinful" heart?
     
  14. HosannaHM

    HosannaHM Christian Saved by Grace

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    From Adam.

    Adam chose to sin. Adam was given a "free will" in the sense of being able to do good or bad. Adam was made righteous and chose sin. We were not made righteous, but the death and sin we received from Adam carries over to his seed i.e. mankind
     
  15. Jennifer Rothnie

    Jennifer Rothnie Well-Known Member

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    #1 Faith is not righteous of itself, rather it is believing that Christ is righteous and that His righteousness will be imputed to our accounts. So man being fallen sinners doesn't make them unable to believe that Christ was the sinless Messiah.

    #2 An unbeliever can't achieve sinless perfection, obviously, but that doesn't mean they are unable to do anything good ever whatsoever. Even God mentions that unbelievers can do good at times and commends them for good things at times (Rom 2:13-16, I Kings 21:49, Acts 10:1-4, Dan 4, Jonah 1:16, etc.)
    [Question: Can natural, fallen man do anything that is spiritually good?
    See Answer: Can natural, fallen man do anything that is spiritually good?]

    Sometimes it is claimed off Rom 3:11-12 that the passage proves no unbeliever can do any untainted good at all. But not only does the poetic psalm it quotes from not take that view (rather Psalm 53 is speaking of fools and evildoers attacking God's people and the longing for salvation for Israel to come out of Zion) but the passage and context does not fit it. 'No one does good' is being referenced in Romans as proof no one can attain righteousness via the law, whether Jew or Gentile, for all alike are under the power of sin. The passage specifically clarifies that there is a righteousness apart from the law which is by faith. That righteousness is given to anyone who believes, and that belief isn't based in any person's works or goodness but only in Christ.

    #3 After we believe, not before, we are given new life in Christ (Rom 6:4). We get the indwelling Holy Spirit and are renewed 'day by day' as we walk by the Spirit. The Spirit helps us grow in relationship with Christ and determine what the will of God is. Yet we don't do all these new good works to perfect ourselves or be saved, but out of obedience to our new Master - Christ.
     
  16. sunlover1

    sunlover1 Beloved, Let us love one another

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    How should we respond to that in context of the entire counsel of God?
    Or maybe you can give an example?
     
  17. John tower

    John tower The Called Out

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    All pre ordained by God as part if his deliberate plan : to say otherwise is to imply that God is not in control of his own creation : When you start questioning God you are straying onto dangerous ground !
     
  18. RC1970

    RC1970 post tenebras lux

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    So Adam is responsible for our nature? Or, did God declare a curse on Adam and his descendants?
     
  19. HosannaHM

    HosannaHM Christian Saved by Grace

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    Faith is also the gift of God, and to believe the gospel you must be born again. Otherwise they won't believe

    Good as in good to your fellow man, yes. Good as in good works given by God, no. Jesus even said apart from me you can do nothing. I'm also thinking of the rich young ruler. "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone" Mark 10:18

    Romans 3 can be applicable. No one is righteous- besides God and God alone. He even prepared our good works before hand. Our righteousness is as filthy rags.

    Agreed!
     
  20. HosannaHM

    HosannaHM Christian Saved by Grace

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    I can't help but feel I'm being herded :)

    Adam is responsible for his sin. God declared the curse. Are there implications I'm missing?
     
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