Do calvinists believe that God wills them to sin?

[LoveofTruth]

Because brother I cannot believe that God does not love each and every person. Including those who are not saved.

Yes Jesus even tells us to love our enemies

 

[Tree of Life]

What you describe would be God willing that we sin, as to ordain something/someone is to appoint, arrange, charge, command, etc. Basically it's will + direction. The moral command to sin would be a contradiction, as he cannot both command (ordain) we sin and command we not sin; else it would be surface level lie or deception as He would be giving us a verbal command that He otherwise commands/ordains we be unable to fulfill.

The verse you use to support this does not actually support it. What does Acts 2:23 say? "This man was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross." Jesus being delivered over into the hands of the Jews was by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge. Is there a sin in Jesus becoming flesh, or a sin in God placing Jesus under the Earthly authorities of the day in allowing Jesus to be arrested by the Jewish elders and the people, or a sin in allowing Jesus to be tried by the Romans? No! It was God's plan before time that Jesus would die to bring redemption (Rev 13:8), and for that to occur Jesus needed to take human flesh and be delivered into the hands of the Jews. Jesus clarified that even though He could ask His Father to rescue Him and get twelve legions of angels, scripture could only be fulfilled if He went with the party arresting Him (Matt 26:47-56.)

Now let's look at the other half of Acts 2:23: "and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross." Did God ordain the individual wickedness of each heart? Did God put Christ to death? No - the Jews, with the help of the Romans, crucified Christ. Nothing in the verse states that God commanded or ordained actual sin vs. delivering Christ over into their power in the knowledge that those wicked people would crucify Christ and fulfill scripture.

Acts 4:26-27 - 27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Both those who are saved and those who are not saved will still sin. Why would the people God has chosen still stumble in sin?

Because we all have to choose and yield to God and as believers we will sometime not do this

 

[John tower]

God knows how men are saved and who, there is no list predetermined. The hairs of you head are in the present tense and so is you standing before God. What God knew was that to be saved you must be the righteousness of God in Christ.

Man the way you wrest scriptures with your endless private interpretstions is scary : I'd be afraid to continually explain away God's word the way you do : It does not matter what verse you are given you explain them all away in your own reasonings : Like Christ said : You make the word of God of none effect by your traditions : God's word cannot change you because you just explain it away whatever it says : Your mind is made up : don't confuse you with the facts !

 

[LoveofTruth]

Isaiah 66 - 3. He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.”

 

[BNR32FAN]

Man the way you wrest scriptures with your endless private interpretstions is scary : I'd be afraid to continually explain away God's word the way you do : It does not matter what verse you are given you explain them all away in your own reasonings : Like Christ said : You make the word of God of none effect by your traditions : God's word cannot change you because you just explain it away whatever it says : Your mind is made up : don't confuse you with the facts !

Brother you still haven’t shown that your idea of predestination doesn’t contradict John 3:16.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Man the way you wrest scriptures with your endless private interpretstions is scary : I'd be afraid to continually explain away God's word the way you do : It does not matter what verse you are given you explain them all away in your own reasonings : Like Christ said : You make the word of God of none effect by your traditions : God's word cannot change you because you just explain it away whatever it says : Your mind is made up : don't confuse you with the facts !

I’m praying for you brother that God will give you guidance and understanding.

 

[HosannaHM]

John, you sound really excited about the doctrines of grace. Channel that into speaking grace to your hearers

 

[John tower]

Because we all have to choose and yield to God and as believers we will sometime not do this

Rom 8 :The creature was made subject to vanity : part of our deliberate educational process , all pre ordained by God : Rom 8(28) .

 

[BNR32FAN]

Isaiah 66 - 3. He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.”

Yes and...

“For they don’t understand God’s way of making people right with himself. Refusing to accept God’s way, they cling to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:3‬

 

[John tower]

I’m praying for you brother that God will give you guidance and understanding.

Everything just bounces right off you : amazing : The problem with that attitude is that you can never move foreward if you just reject everything !

 

[LoveofTruth]

The prisoners of Christ .

You must answer sections like this that totally correct your understanding

Be honest with the text

Isaiah 66 - 3. He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.”

God says they did that which he delighted not and chose their own ways

How much clearer can it be ??

 

[BNR32FAN]

Everything just bounces right off you : amazing : The problem with that attitude is that you can never move foreward if you just reject everything !

If your idea is true it cannot contradict any of the scriptures. Do we agree on that?

 

[John tower]

John, you sound really excited about the doctrines of grace. Channel that into speaking grace to your hearers

I try .

 

[John tower]

If your idea is true it cannot contradict any of the scriptures. Do we agree on that?

No clue what your talking about .

 

[LoveofTruth]

Everything just bounces right off you : amazing : The problem with that attitude is that you can never move foreward if you just reject everything !

You must consider John that believers in Christ will have a witness against some things you say here and so they cannot agree with you

And there are many scriptures that God shows that disagree with your understanding

And every verse you bring does not agree with your overall understanding

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yes and...

“For they don’t understand God’s way of making people right with himself. Refusing to accept God’s way, they cling to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:3‬

Yes as clear as can be

But for some reason these verses are hidden from John

He won’t address them because they clearly expose the error he has been handing out to others in flyers for years

There’s a huge piece of humble pie that has to be eaten

 

[HosannaHM]

Ok

1. Does God make men deny himself?

2. Does God make men do iniquity or sin? Is Christ the minister of sin?

3. Does God make men lie?

4. Does Go make men blaspheme the Holy Ghost? God forbid such a thought don’t answer this one I am just pointing out the horror of such a doctrine and the absolute seriousness of this topic and the great danger of what John is saying

Alright I'll give it a shot brother:

1. God doesn't have to make men deny him; they naturally do(1 Cor 2:14).

2. God doesn't make men sin. By nature, children of wrath(Eph 2:1-2)

3. Lying is sin. So back to question #2 no God doesn't make men lie.

4. God doesn't have to.

I think we should start at the natural state of man. This is why free will won't make any sense unless it's in light of total depravity. God is infinitely more great and holy than we can conceive, and we are far worse than we would like to think we are.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Rom 8 :The creature was made subject to vanity : part of our deliberate educational process , all pre ordained by God : Rom 8(28) .

I already have a long answer to that verse in another forum showing that it does not mean what you imply

 

[BNR32FAN]

No clue what your talking about .

So we can’t even agree on that then?