Do calvinists believe that God wills them to sin?

[John tower]

So does God force men to deny him? And to sin? And to lie?

God cannot deny himself

God cannot lie

And God does no iniquity

And God does not temp men with evil

Jesus said,

Luke 11 - 9. And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.”

He did not say “I will force you as a robot to ask and I will force you as a robot to seek and I will force you as a robot to knock and I will force the door opened regardless of what you think believe say or do . “

The prisoners of Christ .

 

[BNR32FAN]

Read Romans 9(11-22): Argue with that if you like !

So it’s either John 3:16 is right or Romans 9 is right? Both are not correct?

 

[mark kennedy]

Rom 8(28): All things work together for good to them that are the called ! Well one says how could evil ever work together for good ? Well according to God himself : Evil is needed to become as a God : Genesis 3(22): God speaking : The man is become as one of us , to know good AND EVIL ! Do according to God both good AND EVIL are needed to become as a God ! So God has created all things , even the things we don't understand and think are bad and then erroneously say God did not create because we erroneously think they are bad : that's why the bible says lean not unto your own understanding !

All things working together includes persecution and hardship, not some mystical knowledge of evil. God can know what evil is without sin, we can't. There are the communicable attributes of God, love, righteousness, the fruit of the Holy Spirit and the exercise of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Being all powerfully and all knowing is beyond us. The knowledge of good and evil came with a curse, death was the result. Secret knowledge has long been the bait for the lure of the occult. They call them the dark arts for a reason, it's because they are shrouded in mystery for all but the initiated. That knowledge is spiritual poison.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The Prisoners of Christ : Amen !

Deuteronomy 15 - 16. And it shall be, if he say unto thee, I will not go away from thee; because he loveth thee and thine house, because he is well with thee; 17. Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise.”

 

[HosannaHM]

Again you don’t answer the questions that will expose this doctrine and help you to be free of it

I would like to see these questions

 

[BNR32FAN]

The prisoners of Christ .

Is that going to be your answer for all the questions?

 

[BNR32FAN]

What about the people’s names who will be blotted out of the book of life? How did their name get into the book of life and why will they be blotted out?

 

[John tower]

It just sounds to me like you haven't done the math. 2+2=4. If you keep thinking about these Scriptures you'll see it.

Ephesians 1(11): Him who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of his own will ! : If all things are already after his will it is impossible to have our will , as all things are already after his will ! : What part of this do you not understand?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Read Romans 9(11-22): Argue with that if you like !

You don’t understand Romans 9 we can go through that whole chaoter if you want

But read the conclusion of Romans 9 in context

Romans 9 - 30. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;”

 

[John tower]

What about the people’s names who will be blotted out of the book of life? How did their name get into the book of life and why will they be blotted out?

They went out from us that they might be manifest that they never were really of us !

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ephesians 1(11): Him who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of his own will ! : If all things are already after his will it is impossible to have our will , as all things are already after his will ! : What part of this do you not understand?

All things are according to His will because He has foreseen it and is satisfied with the results. That doesn’t mean that He chose who will be saved and who won’t be saved.

 

[mark kennedy]

No man is able to pluck them out of the fathers hand , not even themselves as they qualify as a man : ALL that the father gives : none are lost : He not only knows who are his beforehand but the very hairs of their heads are numbered : How is that for knowing who his predestined elect are knowing the number of their hairs !

God knows how men are saved and who, there is no list predetermined. The hairs of you head are in the present tense and so is you standing before God. What God knew was that to be saved you must be the righteousness of God in Christ.

 

[BNR32FAN]

They went out from us that they might be manifest that they never were really of us !

God foresees all their names wouldn’t be in the book of life if they were never with God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I’m going to step back for a little while. Brother John has a lot of questions coming at him at one time.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Ephesians 1(11): Him who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of his own will ! : If all things are already after his will it is impossible to have our will , as all things are already after his will ! : What part of this do you not understand?

No one counsels God is all that means

Men’s will and ways are spoken of all through scripture and are contrary to Gods ways

In fact some things that man does in thier freewill God never even commanded or came to his mind little enough making them do it. As scripture clearly shows

Jeremiah 19 - 5. They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:”

And

“ Acts 14 - 16. Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.”

Isaiah 66 - 3. He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.”

It’s hard John to resist such scriptures isn’t it

All the verses you bring can be answered but you don’t answer the many verses that correct you this is part of the problem

 

[John tower]

All things are according to His will because He has foreseen it and is satisfied with the results. That doesn’t mean that He chose who will be saved and who won’t be saved.

ALL things after his will : ALL things does mean that he pre chose : ALL things after his will : ALL things : He has foreseen it because he has predestined it : predestination is a biblical fact all over the bible ! : Why do you want to continually attack God saying he did not predestinate all things : Tell me why ?

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Hah! It's actually not a simple question.

Does God want believers to sin in a moral sense? No. God's commands that we not sin.

Does God sovereignly ordain our sin and use it for his good purposes? Yes. This is exactly what God did with the worst sin ever committed - the betrayal, arrest, and murder of the Son of God. The murder of Jesus was free actions of men which God did not approve of, but he did sovereignly decree in order to accomplish our salvation.

What you describe would be God willing that we sin, as to ordain something/someone is to appoint, arrange, charge, command, etc. Basically it's will + direction. The moral command to sin would be a contradiction, as he cannot both command (ordain) we sin and command we not sin; else it would be surface level lie or deception as He would be giving us a verbal command that He otherwise commands/ordains we be unable to fulfill.

The verse you use to support this does not actually support it. What does Acts 2:23 say? "This man was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross." Jesus being delivered over into the hands of the Jews was by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge. Is there a sin in Jesus becoming flesh, or a sin in God placing Jesus under the Earthly authorities of the day in allowing Jesus to be arrested by the Jewish elders and the people, or a sin in allowing Jesus to be tried by the Romans? No! It was God's plan before time that Jesus would die to bring redemption (Rev 13:8), and for that to occur Jesus needed to take human flesh and be delivered into the hands of the Jews. Jesus clarified that even though He could ask His Father to rescue Him and get twelve legions of angels, scripture could only be fulfilled if He went with the party arresting Him (Matt 26:47-56.)

Now let's look at the other half of Acts 2:23: "and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross." Did God ordain the individual wickedness of each heart? Did God put Christ to death? No - the Jews, with the help of the Romans, crucified Christ. Nothing in the verse states that God commanded or ordained actual sin vs. delivering Christ over into their power in the knowledge that those wicked people would crucify Christ and fulfill scripture.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I would like to see these questions

Ok

1. Does God make men deny himself?

2. Does God make men do iniquity or sin? Is Christ the minister of sin?

3. Does God make men lie?

4. Does Go make men blaspheme the Holy Ghost? God forbid such a thought don’t answer this one I am just pointing out the horror of such a doctrine and the absolute seriousness of this topic and the great danger of what John is saying

 

[BNR32FAN]

ALL things after his will : ALL things does mean that he pre chose : ALL things after his will : ALL things : He has foreseen it because he has predestined it : predestination is a biblical fact all over the bible ! : Why do you want to continually attack God saying he did not predestinate all things : Tell me why ?

Because brother I cannot believe that God does not love each and every person. Including those who are not saved.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ok

1. Does God make men deny himself?

2. Does God make men do iniquity or sin? Is Christ the minister of sin?

3. Does God make men lie?

4. Does Go make men blaspheme the Holy Ghost? God forbid such a thought don’t answer this one I am just pointing out the horror of such a doctrine and the absolute seriousness of this topic and the great danger of what John is saying

Both those who are saved and those who are not saved will still sin. Why would the people God has chosen still stumble in sin?