Do calvinists believe that God wills them to sin?

[sunlover1]

Simple question

 

[Call me Nic]

Calvinists don't believe in free will. They believe that God created some destined for hell and some destined for heaven. So, yes, ultimately.

But they're wrong according to the Bible.

 

[Tree of Life]

Simple question

Hah! It's actually not a simple question.

Does God want believers to sin in a moral sense? No. God's commands that we not sin.

Does God sovereignly ordain our sin and use it for his good purposes? Yes. This is exactly what God did with the worst sin ever committed - the betrayal, arrest, and murder of the Son of God. The murder of Jesus was free actions of men which God did not approve of, but he did sovereignly decree in order to accomplish our salvation.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

It's an interesting issue. While I do not believe that God makes us sin, we sin of our own 'free will' (not true free will, mind you) but that God already knew everything we did, do, and would do. My personal opinion.

 

[sunlover1]

Hah! It's actually not a simple question.

Not for you maybe lol.
It's simple for me.

"Sin not" ~ God

Does God want believers to sin in a moral sense? No. God's commands that we not sin.

Amen!
I agree! (except He doesn't want us to sin in ANY sense, does He?
Scripture is my source , and I see no qualifiers there)

Does God sovereignly ordain our sin

Let's look at the word first,
ORDAIN:
or·dain . ôrˈdān/ verb

1. 1.
   make (someone) a priest or minister; confer holy orders on.
   synonyms: confer holy orders on, appoint, anoint, consecrate, install, invest, induct
   "the Church voted to ordain women"
2. 2.
   order or decree (something) officially.
   "equal punishment was ordained for the two crimes"
   synonyms: decree, rule, order, command, enjoin, lay/set down, establish, dictate, legislate, prescribe, pronounce
   "she ordained that anyone found hunting in the forest must pay a fine"

and use it for his good purposes? Yes.

He sure does use all things for His own purposes.
But He didn't and doesn't ordain sin.
He can't both forbid it and also ordain it.
Those are opposites.

This is exactly what God did with the worst sin ever committed - the betrayal, arrest, and murder of the Son of God. The murder of Jesus was free actions of men which God did not approve of, but he did sovereignly decree in order to accomplish our salvation.

God knew they would do it, but He didn't order it done.
Those are two different things.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

So twisted...

 

[mark kennedy]

No, God could never do anything that is contrary to his righteous, holy and sinless nature:

However, if my falsehood accentuates God’s truthfulness, to the increase of His glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner? Why not say, as some slanderously claim that we say, “- Let us do evil that good may result?” Their condemnation is deserved! What then? Are we any better? Not at all. For we have already made the charge that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin. (Rom. 3:7-9)
​

God reveals sin, he does not encourage and certainly doesn't promote it. The Law says, 'Thou shalt not covet', according to Paul this brought out all kinds of covetous desire. Paul didn't say this was God's fault, that there was anything wrong with the Law, he said there was sin in his heart that responded to the Law.

The question is absurd, the rhetorical and I suspect, fallacious question, is circular in it's orientation.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Rescued One]

Does God prevent sin? Is Satan more powerful than God?

 

[sunlover1]

It's an interesting issue. While I do not believe that God makes us sin,

Me either.
it would be goofy for Him to tell us not to and then make us do it. lol

we sin of our own 'free will'

Must be so!

(not true free will, mind you)

Can it be free but not truly free??
Whatchutalkinabout?

but that God already knew everything we did, do, and would do. My personal opinion.

I give my babies free access of the play room. I know that they'll make a mess, but
i let them use it anyhow. Do I love the mess? No, but it's free access nonetheless.

 

[sunlover1]

No, God could never do anything that is contrary to his righteous, holy and sinless nature:

However, if my falsehood accentuates God’s truthfulness, to the increase of His glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner? Why not say, as some slanderously claim that we say, “- Let us do evil that good may result?” Their condemnation is deserved! What then? Are we any better? Not at all. For we have already made the charge that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin. (Rom. 3:7-9)
​

God reveals sin, he does not encourage and certainly doesn't promote it. The Law says, 'Thou shalt not covet', according to Paul this brought out all kinds of covetous desire. Paul didn't say this was God's fault, that there was anything wrong with the Law, he said there was sin in his heart that responded to the Law.

The question is absurd, the rhetorical and I suspect, fallacious question, is circular in it's orientation.

Grace and peace,
Mark

I think it's a great question.
And i agree that God does not will sin.

 

[sunlover1]

So twisted...

Who, what?

 

[Tree of Life]

He sure does use all things for His own purposes.
But He didn't and doesn't ordain sin.
He can't both forbid it and also ordain it.
Those are opposites.

God knew they would do it, but He didn't order it done.
Those are two different things.

That's an interesting thought. But it's not what the Bible teaches.

Acts 4:27-28 - 27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Genesis 50:19-20 - 19 But Joseph said to them, “Do not fear, for am I in the place of God? 20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Habakkuk 1:5-6 -
5 “Look among the nations, and see;
wonder and be astounded.
For I am doing a work in your days
that you would not believe if told.
6 For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans,
that bitter and hasty nation,
who march through the breadth of the earth,
to seize dwellings not their own.

 

[Innerfire89]

Calvinists don't believe in free will. They believe that God created some destined for hell and some destined for heaven. So, yes, ultimately.

But they're wrong according to the Bible.

Not quite.
Calvinists believe freewill is in bondage to the sinful nature and that God is sovereign over our will.
We believe God intervenes in the lives of the elect and passes over the reprobate to leave them the punishment they rightly deserve.

 

[straykat]

As much as predestination is scriptural, the funniest thing is seeing humans trying to actually explain it. Would you like to fall into a Black Hole as well? Contemplate the Trinity? Get in a time machine and kill your grandfather? Or __insert paradox here_.

Even funnier is actually making it a central tenet of one's faith. It's one thing to believe it. Another to actually enshrine it!

 

[mark kennedy]

I think it's a great question.
And i agree that God does not will sin.

Of course he doesn't but that won't stop him from, as a act of judgment, turning you over to it.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. (Romans 1:24-25)​

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

Me either.
it would be goofy for Him to tell us not to and then make us do it. lol


Must be so!



Can it be free but not truly free??
Whatchutalkinabout?


I give my babies free access of the play room. I know that they'll make a mess, but
i let them use it anyhow. Do I love the mess? No, but it's free access nonetheless.

Interesting viewpoint.

Check out Molinism. Paradoxical view of free will.

 

[mark kennedy]

Hah! It's actually not a simple question.

Does God want believers to sin in a moral sense? No. God's commands that we not sin.

Does God sovereignly ordain our sin and use it for his good purposes? Yes. This is exactly what God did with the worst sin ever committed - the betrayal, arrest, and murder of the Son of God. The murder of Jesus was free actions of men which God did not approve of, but he did sovereignly decree in order to accomplish our salvation.

God is in the business of exposing sin, he never ordained anything that was not the righteousness of God in Christ.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Who, what?

Heterodoxy at times...

 

[Call me Nic]

Not quite.
Calvinists believe freewill is in bondage to the sinful nature and that God is sovereign over our will.
We believe God intervenes in the lives of the elect and passes over the reprobate to leave them the punishment they rightly deserve.

But what you claim is that a man cannot freely choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and accept the grace of God without being quickened from his "totally depraved" state. Calvinists believe that by the "Irresistible Grace" of God, a man is given life so as to have faith, thereby granting unconditional election, whether the individual would have chosen said salvation or not. You also do not believe that Christ died for the entire world, and that a saint must endure to the end to be saved; while "Perseverance of the Saints" states that all saints will endure to the end, it is dramatically different from the doctrine of "Once saved, Always saved."

Am I right or wrong?

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

God is in the business of exposing sin, he never ordained anything that was not the righteousness of God in Christ.

Amen.