Do calvinists believe that God wills them to sin?

Does God will you to sin?


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straykat

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Much could be said about systematic theology (but I have not much time), most every branch/denomination of Christianity has their systematicians with works which they have to draw from. A couple of considerations for you. If Scripture is not revelation from God, then you are right, we cannot get inside the mind of God, there is no contact therefore between His and ours. If Scripture is revelation from God, but not accurate, we might possibly get inside the mind of God, but could never know about from some personal relative mystical experience. Another point, God is not the author of confusion, His thoughts are pure and perfect and not lacking. If they are perfect, they are logical, if the are logical they have unity and organization. Systematic theology is about studying doctrines of Scripture in an organized manner, seeing the unity and relationship between doctrines.

This is partly why I've leaned to the Orthodox (not a member though): The appreciation for mystery. And lack of systematic theology.. but a depth in worship and prayer. I love the scriptures too (I can believe and love.. but not always understand). These three have become good enough for me. God didn't call me to be an egghead. Just to take up my cross and die with him.. and rise.

This may sound like an excuse.. and I'm simply not intelligent enough to fathom theology in these ways. But I'm OK with that. Cue Lynrd Skynrd: Simple Man ;)
 
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HwtChirino

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Not because God withholds grace to anyone, because again, Christ died for everyone, the Gospel is for everyone, grace is for everyone. Not because it is up to us to choose or reject Christ. But because for reasons we do not currently know, and may never know.

We accept this as a mystery and a paradox.

We have known the answer to this so-called "mystery" and "paradox" for 2 millennia.

You cannot say that God wills all to be saved and gives grace to all to be saved, but simultaneously maintain that it is not up to us to choose or reject Christ. What?! That makes no sense whatsoever. None at all. For the fact that what you say is irrational, I believe this is the reason why you deem it a mystery and a paradox.

If I repent, if I have faith, if I do good works, how do you say that this is not my choice, and that I do not choose Christ, and that I do not choose or desire to be saved?

You say rightly when you assert that man is the recipient of grace, of the Eucharist, of salvation, of eternal life. Yes, man receives. But man also asks, he seeks, he knocks. Therefore, man is active, not passive in his salvation. And when I speak of salvation, I mean it the same way you do.

The giver of salvation is God; the recipient is man. The grace is of God. The choice is of man. God wills man to be saved. Man must also will to be saved. God offers eternal life. Man must receive eternal life if he desires it. How does man do that? He repents, he gets baptized, he believes in Jesus Christ, he strives to please God, he repents when he sins, he constantly strives to grow closer to God. Does any of this warrant him salvation? No, man does not earn anything, nor is he worthy of anything by his own efforts or works. But his will, his desire, his choice to seek and receive salvation, these things make him eligible to receive salvation from God.

Why do you keep saying salvation is monergistic when it is clearly not? If you mean that salvation is monergistic in that God is ultimately the One who saves man and grants him eternal life, then yes, of course. But if you mean that man cannot freely choose God and seek salvation in Jesus Christ by faith in Him so that he might receive eternal life, then I say that this is the furthest thing from the truth. Yet, I saw that you said that God gives grace to all, but not all accept it and not all turn to the Lord. This is true. Nevertheless, you cannot say truthfully that man is not active in his salvation if he desires and seeks it of God through faith in Christ.

As evidence for this, I bring to your attention the story of the prodigal son. You keep mentioning Lazarus, but you entirely neglect mentioning the parables of the Lord, the ones in which He says, "The kingdom of heaven is like..." Lazarus prefigured man's salvation, indeed, but it does not support your argument as you think. This is because the Lord issued a command and Lazarus obeyed. So, instead, it supports my point, which is that man is an active agent in his own salvation. For, if man does not heed the calling of God, he is not saved. And this you blatantly support.

In the end, we are both very close in beliefs. It may be that our vocabulary is causing miscommunication. But, in some ways, it still seems like you are saying things that I don't agree with.
 
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HwtChirino

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This is partly why I've leaned to the Orthodox (not a member though): The appreciation for mystery. And lack of systematic theology.. but a depth in worship and prayer. I love the scriptures too (I can believe and love.. but not always understand). These three have become good enough for me. God didn't call me to be an egghead. Just to take up my cross and die with him.. and rise.

This may sound like an excuse.. and I'm simply not intelligent enough to fathom theology in these ways. But I'm OK with that. Cue Lynrd Skynrd: Simple Man ;)

Are you on your way to becoming an official member of the Church?
 
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straykat

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Are you on your way to becoming an official member of the Church?

I'd like to, but the nearest churches are on the other side of town (an OCA, Antiochian, and Greek). I also don't have reliable transportation.. so even if I do get there now, a continuing catechumen period will still be difficult.

I suppose this is a really good time for prayer actually :)
 
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HwtChirino

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I'd like to, but the nearest churches are on the other side of town (an OCA, Antiochian, and Greek). I also don't have reliable transportation.. so even if I do get there now, a continuing catechumen period will still be difficult.

I suppose this is a really good time for prayer actually :)
All things are possible with God.

I suspect that you will find several gracious lights of Christ who would be more than willing to supply your transportation needs if you merely outreach each parish.

Or maybe God will simply carry you away like He did to Phillip :D
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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God permits sin, knows it will happen, but that doesn't place the guilt of sin on the Lord, the Father, or the Holy Spirit. God uses sin to accomplish His will, but that is not tantamount to the act itself. God cannot cause sin to happen.
 
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JoeP222w

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Calvinists don't believe in free will.

Common misrepresentation of Calvinism.

Man does not have autonomous free will. Man does make moral choices but apart from the grace of God, man's will is in bondage to sin.

They believe that God created some destined for hell and some destined for heaven. So, yes, ultimately.

Romans 9.
But they're wrong according to the Bible.

Assertion without evidence is an argument from silence.
 
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Dr Bruce Atkinson

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Simple question

IF some Calvinists believe this way, they are ridiculously in error. Sin, by definition, is going against the will of God. But I personally know no Calvinists who say this.

God gave Adam and Eve sufficient free will to rebel against Him (sin). We descendants have a warped nature (original sin) but not all to the same extent--- but no one can be good enough to earn heaven (except Jesus, of course).

Because God knows the Elect before the foundation of the world, He knows who are not among the Elect. "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren" (Romans 8:29-30). Note the order that Paul puts this.... first foreknowledge, then predestination (chosen). God never coerced anyone to sin. However, once human beings did sin, some have been chosen (by His grace and foreknowledge) to be saved.
 
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Tree of Life

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If God predestined His creation to sin, in what way are you able to clear God of the charge of being the author of sin?

God does not violate any of his commands or his character when he ordains that his creatures freely sin. God does not intend evil, but good in the ordination of his creatures sin.
 
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HwtChirino

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God does not violate any of his commands or his character when he ordains that his creatures freely sin. God does not intend evil, but good in the ordination of his creatures sin.
No, that is completely illogical. For, if He commands man to do good and keep His commandments, God would be unjust in ordaining man to sin in order to accomplish good. Furthermore, this statement of yours makes God guilty of hijacking man's free will since you make the Lord the originator of man's sin. And if this be the case, then God would be guilty of sin Himself, since whatever opposes His commandments and His laws is sin, evil, unjust, and unrighteous. But that God would be the source of a man's sin is a completely impious and blasphemous statement, and I believe that you would do well to repent of this absurd doctrine.

And if you or anyone rail the accusation against me that I do not speak truly and that I am speaking of the attributes of God in a human way, I am justified in reflecting the same accusation against those who accuse me in this way.

Let me conclude with refutations that are clear:

1) If you say, "God does not violate any of his commands or his character when he ordains that his creatures freely sin", explain to me how what you say is right. Because, as far as I can tell, this statement is based on no sound doctrine but only on a man's opinion. When you accuse God of ordaining man's sin, you make Him the impetus of man's sin, or more accurately, you make God the determinant of man's sin, not man. And we know that this is what you mean because you have said that nothing occurs without God willing it to be so, even the sin of man.

2) Then, tell me, what do you have to say to the great Apostle James? He says, Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man. Now, it follows that if James clearly tells us that God does not tempt any man with evil, the Lord also does not ordain man to commit evil.

3) You cannot accuse God of ordaining sin without accusing Him of ordaining evil. And, if you say this, then you blaspheme by making God the creator of evil rather than of good only. Yet, we know that all who are truly pious Christians reject this heretical notion and instead proclaim the true glory of God by saying that God is the originator of good alone, and it was Satan who created evil, and it was man to also brought evil and sin and death into the world. Hence, the Scriptures never in any way place the blame on God but on man, saying, By one man, sin entered into the world.

4) And please also tell me why you believe in a hypocritical God, who you esteem as completely righteous and good, but whom you utterly destroy with the conclusion that He ordained evil and sin. Moreover, it is clear, from your own words, that what you mean by "ordained" is synonymous with "determined". Now, I accuse you of preaching a hypocritical God because if God commands His creation to be perfect, to do good, to live righteously, to keep His commandments, then it would be ludicrous for the Lord to ordain that man act in opposition to these things unto man's own death and destruction.

5) Lastly, you say, God does not intend evil, but good in ordination of His creatures sin. Explain this also. You have not done an adequate job of defending this position. As it stands, the statement is also illogical and unsubstantiated by the Truth. You attempt to disconnect sin from evil, claiming that they are unrelated and not the same thing. How is that true? Quite clearly, it cannot be true, for whatever is sin is evil and unrighteous and ungodly and in opposition to God. If you believe in a god who ordains man's sin, then I charge you with believing in a god who is totally depraved.
 
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HwtChirino

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Common misrepresentation of Calvinism.

Man does not have autonomous free will. Man does make moral choices but apart from the grace of God, man's will is in bondage to sin.



Romans 9.


Assertion without evidence is an argument from silence.
Excuse me for highlighting the hypocrisy in your statement, for you yourself make the claim that Man does not have autonomous free will. First of all, you do not explain yourself thoroughly with regards to what you mean by this. Because if you on the one hand say man does not have free will, but then on the other hand you say he can make choices, then you contradict yourself. This is a complete logical fallacy; you cannot say that man has no free will while maintaining that man has the ability to choose anything.

But if this is what you truly mean, then provide evidence to support your argument as you yourself have demanded of others.
 
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HwtChirino

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This is why calvinism is 90% total depravity and 10% for the remaining 4 points. If you don't understand(to a degree) the holiness of God, you cannot understand the sinfulness of fallen man.

However, if your understanding of God is skewed and impious, then you cannot properly understand God or man, resulting in false conclusions.

In fact, anything that is true theology--when it is accomplished without the Holy Spirit, but solely by the intellect of man and his distorted understanding of the Scriptures--cannot be called theology but man's invention, a product of his exceeding pride, not of truth, not of grace, not of godliness, but of arrogance and the spirit of error.
 
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HosannaHM

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Also, it's clear to calvinists that we make choices. To say "Well if God is sovereign I can't make any choices" is to make a straw man case against calvinism. The question isn't that we make decisions. The question is why we make them. Boil it down to this:
Can God thwart the will of man?
Can man thwart the will of God? I'm not talking about refusing salvation. I'm saying if God wants a man to do something, can he make him do it?

God doesn't have to will men to sin. They will naturally do it on their own (Eph.2:1-8). That doesn't make sin God's fault, but shows the grace and mercy He has toward His creation in forgiving sinners deserving wrath.
 
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HosannaHM

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In fact, anything that is true theology--when it is accomplished without the Holy Spirit, but solely by the intellect of man and his distorted understanding of the Scriptures--cannot be called theology but man's invention, a product of his exceeding pride, not of truth, not of grace, not of godliness, but of arrogance and the spirit of error.

Agreed!
 
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HwtChirino

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Also, it's clear to calvinists that we make choices. To say "Well if God is sovereign I can't make any choices" is to make a straw man case against calvinism.

Okay, very good.

The question isn't that we make decisions. The question is why we make them. Boil it down to this:
Can God thwart the will of man?

No, God does not violate man's free will.

Can man thwart the will of God?
Likewise, man cannot violate God's free will.

I'm not talking about refusing salvation. I'm saying if God wants a man to do something, can he make him do it?
No, God will not force man to do anything.

God doesn't have to will men to sin. They will naturally do it on their own (Eph.2:1-8). That doesn't make sin God's fault, but shows the grace and mercy He has toward His creation in forgiving sinners deserving wrath.
Yes, that is the truth. Man's fallen nature predisposes man towards sin. Not only this, but man also inherits death from Adam. Yes, God is very merciful in saving sinners. What is your point?
 
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HosannaHM

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No, God does not violate man's free will.

What about the Apostle Paul on the Damascus road? He set out to accomplish his will but God intervened

No, God will not force man to do anything.

What about what Jesus says to the crowds? "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” John 6:63-65

If no one will come to Christ without the drawing of the Father and the power of the Spirit, isn't it a good thing that our will gets trumped by God's will?

Yes, that is the truth. Man's fallen nature predisposes man towards sin. Not only this, but man also inherits death from Adam. Yes, God is very merciful in saving sinners. What is your point?

The point in that passage is this: A dead man cannot choose, but God made us alive in Christ. If you're dead in sins and trespasses, you have to to be revived by God's grace. Therefore to choose God, he has to given the ability to choose
 
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John tower

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You know, i asked you this simple question more than once and never got an answer.
Now i make a thread to find out.. lol
That Scripture can be interpreted any way one wants to.
As we all know the enemy comes to steal the word.
And he twists it.
So just a yay or nay was all i asked for


God pre ordains both Good and Evil : Col 1(17) !
 
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Marvin Knox

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God knew they would do it, but He didn't order it done. Those are two different things.
Au contraire!

"Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand." Isaiah 53:10

While the sovereign will of God is a difficult discussion - attempts to deny His absolute sovereign predestination of everything which happens in His creation is an attempt to diminish Him and it does not please Him for anyone to do so.

People may be well meaning, I suppose, in their unscriptural conjectures - but they are rejecting the Word of God non the less.

Calvinists may have some faults theologically. They are debatable.

But their theology concerning the sovereignty of God is a well meaning (and pretty much right on IMO) attempt to tackle a difficult subject.

It is better by far than the statements of those who simply want to criticize while adding little to the theological discussion on the subject.

P.S. - This criticism could have been leveled at any number of folks here. I simple chose your post to respond to because it was there and because you were the original OP.:)
 
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