When The penny drops.

[Always in His Presence]

.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Is it not a case of inoculation?

...tasting - but not coming to a knowledge of the Truth.

Then being resistant to it ?

How can one tell the difference for one's self?

 

[d taylor]

I recall seeing this very Sproul episode a couple years ago and it shocked me, angered me, and made me grateful God pulled me from the teeth of Orthodoxy. Just an abhorrent display of false piety … which indeed is the fruit of the gospel, He loves me-He loves me not, which is no gospel at all. I would bet Dr. Sproul and all who espouse this works oriented gospel NEVER end/ended a gospel presentation with that nonsense!

Jesus straightened out this whole “works gospel” mindset after performing miracles to validate His identity.

”They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.“
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭28‬-‭29‬ ‭ASV‬‬

John 6:28-29 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. | American Standard Version (ASV) | Download The Bibl

They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

bible.com

Blessings,

-
​

God promise is plainly stated, how they miss it is beyond me.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 5:24 states believe and the person has 1. everlasting life, 2. shall not come into judgment and 3. has passed from death to life.

The verse never even comes close to saying, may have everlasting life or may not come into judgment or will eventually pass from death to life (if you live a good life), etc....

John 5:24 is like listing to this masterpiece from Bach so peaceful and calming

 

[Carl Emerson]

How can one tell the difference for one's self?

I am not sure one can unless one's inner state is revealed by the Holy Spirit.

If one feels the need to know then this is a grace in itself. If that is the case seeking Him with a whole heart with fasting would be appropriate.

He wants us to be fully convinced, fully committed, fully surrendered.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I am not sure one can unless one's inner state is revealed by the Holy Spirit.

If one feel the need to know then this is a grace in itself. If that is the case seeking Him with a whole heart with fasting would be appropriate.

He wants us to be fully convinced, fully committed, fully surrendered.

Your reply is a good one. I take it as an acknowledgement that one simply cannot, apart from a gracious act of God, know that one is saved. And if you agree that how I am interpreting your post is correct then it seems that reformed practical belief is very similar to Catholic practical belief. And do you agree, may I ask, that on top of believing, on top of the act of faith, the Christian life involves a life of fidelity, a life of faithfulness and that if one lives a faithless life without fidelity to God then one cannot confidently claim to be saved.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Your reply is a good one. I take it as an acknowledgement that one simply cannot, apart from a gracious act of God, know that one is saved. And if you agree that how I am interpreting your post is correct then it seems that reformed practical belief is very similar to Catholic practical belief. And do you agree, may I ask, that on top of believing, on top of the act of faith, the Christian life involves a life of fidelity, a life of faithfulness and that if one lives a faithless life without fidelity to God then one cannot confidently claim to be saved.

Dr. Luther once said that faith and mortal sin cannot co-exist.

Luther does not mean that one cannot commit a grievous sin while one has faith; for Luther mortal sins are not merely grievous sins, but rather sins without remorse, sin without repentance. If I sin without remorse, do I have faith? If I sin, then deny the Holy Spirit who is drawing me to repentance, and insist on my own way--do I have faith? Am I not "making shipwreck" of my faith if I reject and quench the Holy Spirit? If I allow the callouses upon my heart to turn stoney, if I return like a dog to my own vomit, if I singe my conscience and make it numb to the call and voice of the Holy Spirit who through God's commandment calls me to my knees in true repentance and calls me to hear Good News of mercy and forgiveness that washes me clean and softens the stoney heart.

If sin abounds and grace abounds all the more, ought I then go on sinning because of the amazing abundance of grace? Rather, because of the amazing abundance of grace ought I not behold the dread state I was in when I was at enmity with God, before I could know Him as Father, before I could know Him through through faith in His Son; and therefore all the more cleave to the precious hope which is mine in Christ, to throw myself before the Throne of Mercy confessing I am a sinner, for here is the boldness of my faith: Have mercy on me, a sinner.

The Lord taught us that the servant who knew what he ought to do but does not do it will "be beaten with many blows", for "to whom much is given much is required". In this way, when we who call ourselves God's people live as though there is no law and we, therefore, can live with impunity--then on the Day of Judgment it is not merely that we shall be regarded the same as an unbeliever; but shall be condemned with a condemnation far more severe than the one who did not believe. For "it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God".

The tension in Christianity has always been that there is Good News to the sinner who beholds their guilt and says, "Have mercy on me, a sinner" because we do not worship a God of despair, but of hope; not a God of withholding but a God of abundance--who is abundant in mercy, who showers us with grace, who meets us in our poverty in Christ Jesus who suffers and dies for us unworthy sinners. And therefore the wretched sinner can have confidence, not in himself, but in Christ, and the God who through Christ loves the whole world of sinners. At the same time, to the arrogant, the proud, the remorseless--there is proclaimed condemnation, for the Law stands against them proving them to be liars and hypocrites, impious, unrighteous, and altogether worthless. And so there is Judgment, and each must some day stand and give account.

Christ came to tax collectors, prostitutes, and sinners preaching mercy and forgiveness, announcing the kingdom in the grace of His own generosity and love saying "It is not the healthy, but the sick, who need a doctor". And simultaneously stands up against the self-righteous hypocrites who call themselves religious but for whom religion was merely a mask to wear, and Christ calls them blind guides, children of the devil, liars and murderers and thieves, white-washed sepulchers, and snakes asking how they can possibly imagine that they would escape the wrath of God.

Calling myself "Christian" on the Last Day isn't going to impress God. It will no more impress Him than if I try to enumerate all my "achievements" in this life, and yet have thoroughly failed to give care to the "least of these" and all my claims of faith will be meaningless, for here even my appeal to faith is an appeal to my own righteousness, not relying on the righteousness of Christ. The vain appeal of "Lord, Lord, did we not do all these things in Your name?"

For it is not my works that will come to my rescue on the Last Day, not even the work of my "faith"--as though believing the right things, or having the right religion will matter. Even the demons believe, and they tremble, as St. James says.

In this way "Justification by faith alone" is not "saved by believing the right things" or "saved by having the right religion" or "saved because I said the sinner's prayer". Though in the centuries since the Reformation it has been perverted by some to mean these things.

Faith trusts, specifically, faith trusts the mercy of God. But mercy is not mercy unless I reckon myself in need of mercy. It is only in that I know myself to be a wretched sinner before the Law that I can behold mercy as mercy, and through mercy alone shall I pass from death to life. The only way I'm surviving the Day of Judgment is by grace alone, for there is One who is righteous and it's not me, it's Jesus. Therefore "faith" which is mere arrogance is not faith, but merely another sounding of the gavel on that Day which thunderously declares me guilty. Therefore I must get on my knees, for it is only at the Cross of Jesus Christ that I shall find solace.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jipsah]

Dr. Luther once said that faith and mortal sin cannot co-exist.


Faith trusts, specifically, faith trusts the mercy of God. But mercy is not mercy unless I reckon myself in need of mercy. It is only in that I know myself to be a wretched sinner before the Law that I can behold mercy as mercy, and through mercy alone shall I pass from death to life. The only way I'm surviving the Day of Judgment is by grace alone, for there is One who is righteous and it's not me, it's Jesus. Therefore "faith" which is mere arrogance is not faith, but merely another sounding of the gavel on that Day which thunderously declares me guilty. Therefore I must get on my knees, for it is only at the Cross of Jesus Christ that I shall find solace.

Thanks bruv. I needed that.

 

[Carl Emerson]

do you agree, may I ask, that on top of believing, on top of the act of faith, the Christian life involves a life of fidelity, a life of faithfulness and that if one lives a faithless life without fidelity to God then one cannot confidently claim to be saved.

I think we as humans want to formulate life and worse still make laws out of it and worse still act violently against those who disagree.

So in response I make plain that my 'theology' is not learned from teachers but from life with Him.

Now to your question, first the very matter of believing, is a gift.

Second to me faith is not an act, but a gift.

Faith comes from hearing - but not all have ears to hear.

Then the matter of fidelity...

My journey began knowing God was real through his evidence in creation by the age of 4 or 5.

This was a deep belief and very personal.

Then at 8 Jesus appeared to me face to face after I threw a dart into my sisters leg.

I still remember it vividly after 70 years - He simply said that there was nothing in my life that I would do that He would not see...

Then at 13 I was at a Christian camp and my friends were going forward at meetings to give their lives to God and become born again by repentance from sin and receiving the Spirit of Jesus enthroned within.

I couldn't share my faith publicly so I took off up the shores of Lake Wanaka and in a lonely place lay down on the gravel shore and prayed thus... "I know that I have always been yours but there comes a time for me to give my life fully back to you and put you in charge." Sorry for my sin - please come into my life and take over..." at that moment I heard footsteps coming towards me on the stones and when I looked up there was no one there - but Jesus has been with me within ever since.

I was baptised at 16 and active in a Baptist church at that time.

Deep down I knew that what Jesus demonstrated in life was far from what I saw believers doing and was afraid that if I totally surrendered I would end up as a ragged barefooted prophet on the street (or something) - so I liberalised my faith out of fear of total commitment.

Then at 17 I was drawn away from church by meeting a girl who couldn't share my faith and stayed 7 years in a marriage that was never consumated. She moved in with my best friend and divorced me.

During this time - having a serious identity problem I was an easy target for the enemy of our souls and through social pressure was drawn into taking drugs. My life rapidly shipwrecked and I was committed to a Psych ward and administered ECT.

Believers that I never knew heard of my being very sick and prayed for me. The shocks reduced one to a vegetable state with a completely broken will.

BUT GOD.

I was released prematurely and the journey back to Jesus began. The still small voice was saying - return to your Christian routes.

So I took off up country with the one aim of seeking Jesus - and on the wharf at Collingwood He met me sovereignly - proverbially picked me up and gave me a shake saying these are the rails, stay on them. The rails were His Word through Scripture which was to completely reshape my world view.

This was the beginning of seven years of prayer and ministry to restore and reshape my life.

This dialogue does not do justice to the reality of the journey - weeping through services week after week -

I attended a non-denominational Bible College and started obeying what I read in scripture - confess your sins one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed. I started doing this out of obedience and folks were healed.

Now 40 years married with five children and a real wife and partner in faith.

So my journey raises theological issues.

In my fallen state seriously in sin, many thought there was no hope for me.

Fidelity was long gone but I returned as a prodigal.

And when was I saved?

On the beach at Wanaka at 13 is my response because without Jesus in me then I would never have survived what I went through. There would have been no still small voice.

At no stage did I renounce Him but my actions certainly did not honour Him.

So theologically I can't say the called can loose faith because He is faithful when we are faithless.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I think we as humans want to formulate life and worse still make laws out of it and worse still act violently against those who disagree.

So in response I make plain that my 'theology' is not learned from teachers but from life with Him.

Now to your question, first the very matter of believing, is a gift.

Second to me faith is not an act, but a gift.

Faith comes from hearing - but not all have ears to hear.

Then the matter of fidelity...

My journey began knowing God was real through his evidence in creation by the age of 4 or 5.

This was a deep belief and very personal.

Then at 8 Jesus appeared to me face to face after I threw a dart into my sisters leg.

I still remember it vividly after 70 years - He simply said that there was nothing in my life that I would do that He would not see...

Then at 13 I was at a Christian camp and my friends were going forward at meetings to give their lives to God and become born again by repentance from sin and receiving the Spirit of Jesus enthroned within.

I couldn't share my faith publicly so I took off up the shores of Lake Wanaka and in a lonely place lay down on the gravel shore and prayed thus... "I know that I have always been yours but there comes a time for me to give my life fully back to you and put you in charge." Sorry for my sin - please come into my life and take over..." at that moment I heard footsteps coming towards me on the stones and when I looked up there was no one there - but Jesus has been with me within ever since.

I was baptised at 16 and active in a Baptist church at that time.

Deep down I knew that what Jesus demonstrated in life was far from what I saw believers doing and was afraid that if I totally surrendered I would end up as a ragged barefooted prophet on the street (or something) - so I liberalised my faith out of fear of total commitment.

Then at 17 I was drawn away from church by meeting a girl who couldn't share my faith and stayed 7 years in a marriage that was never consumated. She moved in with my best friend and divorced me.

During this time - having a serious identity problem I was an easy target for the enemy of our souls and through social pressure was drawn into taking drugs. My life rapidly shipwrecked and I was committed to a Psych ward and administered ECT.

Believers that I never knew heard of my being very sick and prayed for me. The shocks reduced one to a vegetable state with a completely broken will.

BUT GOD.

I was released prematurely and the journey back to Jesus began. The still small voice was saying - return to your Christian routes.

So I took off up country with the one aim of seeking Jesus - and on the wharf at Collingwood He met me sovereignly - proverbially picked me up and gave me a shake saying these are the rails, stay on them. The rails were His Word through Scripture which was to completely reshape my world view.

This was the beginning of seven years of prayer and ministry to restore and reshape my life.

This dialogue does not do justice to the reality of the journey - weeping through services week after week -

I attended a denominational Bible College and started obeying what I read in scripture - confess your sins one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed. I started doing this out of obedience and folks were healed.

Now 40 years married with five children and a real wife and partner in faith.

So my journey raises theological issues.

In my fallen state seriously in sin, many thought there was no hope for me.

Fidelity was long gone but I returned as a prodigal.

And when was I saved?

On the beach at Wanaka at 13 is my response because without Jesus in me then I would never have survived what I went through. There would have been no still small voice.

At no stage did I renounce Him but my actions certainly did not honour Him.

So theologically I can't say the called can loose faith because He is faithful when we are faithless.

Thank you for sharing your journey so openly. It’s clear that Christ has been present in your life, even in times of suffering and wandering.

Catholics affirm that faith is a gift—freely given by God. But it’s also a response: an act of the will, sustained by grace and perfected through love. The Church teaches that salvation begins with baptism, is nourished by the Eucharist, and restored through reconciliation. It’s not a one-time event, but a lifelong journey of grace and cooperation.

Your encounter with Jesus at Lake Wanaka is moving. While private revelations aren’t binding, the Church recognises that they can be genuine signs of God’s love, especially when they draw us closer to Him and His Church.

You asked when you were saved. Salvation begins in baptism and unfolds through a life of faith, hope, and charity. Even when we fall, Christ remains faithful. His mercy is always available, especially through the sacraments.

Finally, I’d gently add that theology and lived experience aren’t opposed. Theology helps us understand and deepen our relationship with God, guided by Scripture, Tradition, and the Church’s teaching.

Thank you again for your witness. May Christ continue to guide you and bless your family.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Dr. Luther once said that faith and mortal sin cannot co-exist.

Luther does not mean that one cannot commit a grievous sin while one has faith; for Luther mortal sins are not merely grievous sins, but rather sins without remorse, sin without repentance. If I sin without remorse, do I have faith? If I sin, then deny the Holy Spirit who is drawing me to repentance, and insist on my own way--do I have faith? Am I not "making shipwreck" of my faith if I reject and quench the Holy Spirit? If I allow the callouses upon my heart to turn stoney, if I return like a dog to my own vomit, if I singe my conscience and make it numb to the call and voice of the Holy Spirit who through God's commandment calls me to my knees in true repentance and calls me to hear Good News of mercy and forgiveness that washes me clean and softens the stoney heart.

If sin abounds and grace abounds all the more, ought I then go on sinning because of the amazing abundance of grace? Rather, because of the amazing abundance of grace ought I not behold the dread state I was in when I was at enmity with God, before I could know Him as Father, before I could know Him through through faith in His Son; and therefore all the more cleave to the precious hope which is mine in Christ, to throw myself before the Throne of Mercy confessing I am a sinner, for here is the boldness of my faith: Have mercy on me, a sinner.

The Lord taught us that the servant who knew what he ought to do but does not do it will "be beaten with many blows", for "to whom much is given much is required". In this way, when we who call ourselves God's people live as though there is no law and we, therefore, can live with impunity--then on the Day of Judgment it is not merely that we shall be regarded the same as an unbeliever; but shall be condemned with a condemnation far more severe than the one who did not believe. For "it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God".

The tension in Christianity has always been that there is Good News to the sinner who beholds their guilt and says, "Have mercy on me, a sinner" because we do not worship a God of despair, but of hope; not a God of withholding but a God of abundance--who is abundant in mercy, who showers us with grace, who meets us in our poverty in Christ Jesus who suffers and dies for us unworthy sinners. And therefore the wretched sinner can have confidence, not in himself, but in Christ, and the God who through Christ loves the whole world of sinners. At the same time, to the arrogant, the proud, the remorseless--there is proclaimed condemnation, for the Law stands against them proving them to be liars and hypocrites, impious, unrighteous, and altogether worthless. And so there is Judgment, and each must some day stand and give account.

Christ came to tax collectors, prostitutes, and sinners preaching mercy and forgiveness, announcing the kingdom in the grace of His own generosity and love saying "It is not the healthy, but the sick, who need a doctor". And simultaneously stands up against the self-righteous hypocrites who call themselves religious but for whom religion was merely a mask to wear, and Christ calls them blind guides, children of the devil, liars and murderers and thieves, white-washed sepulchers, and snakes asking how they can possibly imagine that they would escape the wrath of God.

Calling myself "Christian" on the Last Day isn't going to impress God. It will no more impress Him than if I try to enumerate all my "achievements" in this life, and yet have thoroughly failed to give care to the "least of these" and all my claims of faith will be meaningless, for here even my appeal to faith is an appeal to my own righteousness, not relying on the righteousness of Christ. The vain appeal of "Lord, Lord, did we not do all these things in Your name?"

For it is not my works that will come to my rescue on the Last Day, not even the work of my "faith"--as though believing the right things, or having the right religion will matter. Even the demons believe, and they tremble, as St. James says.

In this way "Justification by faith alone" is not "saved by believing the right things" or "saved by having the right religion" or "saved because I said the sinner's prayer". Though in the centuries since the Reformation it has been perverted by some to mean these things.

Faith trusts, specifically, faith trusts the mercy of God. But mercy is not mercy unless I reckon myself in need of mercy. It is only in that I know myself to be a wretched sinner before the Law that I can behold mercy as mercy, and through mercy alone shall I pass from death to life. The only way I'm surviving the Day of Judgment is by grace alone, for there is One who is righteous and it's not me, it's Jesus. Therefore "faith" which is mere arrogance is not faith, but merely another sounding of the gavel on that Day which thunderously declares me guilty. Therefore I must get on my knees, for it is only at the Cross of Jesus Christ that I shall find solace.

-CryptoLutheran

I appreciate the theological seriousness with which you approach the mystery of grace, judgment, and repentance. Your reflections echo many truths that the Catholic Church holds dear—especially the urgency of conversion, the danger of presumption, and the absolute necessity of divine mercy.

I affirm that faith is a gift from God, infused into the soul at baptism and sustained by grace. Yet faith alone does not justify. The Church teaches that we are justified by grace through faith working in love (cf. Galatians 5:6). This is not a denial of grace, but its proper unfolding: grace initiates, faith receives, and charity perfects. The Council of Trent solemnly declared that justification is not merely the imputation of Christ’s righteousness, but a real interior renewal of the soul (cf. Session VI, Decree on Justification).

You rightly note that mortal sin and true faith cannot co-exist without contradiction. The Church teaches that mortal sin, freely chosen and committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent, severs the bond of charity and extinguishes sanctifying grace. In such a state, one may retain belief in God, but not the living faith that justifies. This is why the sacrament of reconciliation is so vital—it restores what was lost, not by our merit, but by Christ’s mercy.

I also share your concern about false security. Calling oneself “Christian” or claiming faith without repentance is indeed a grave danger. The Lord’s warning in Matthew 7—“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’…”—is a sobering reminder that faith must bear fruit. Yet the Church does not teach that we are saved by our works, but that good works, done in grace, are the necessary expression of living faith. They are not the cause of salvation, but its consequence.

You speak of mercy beautifully, and I wholeheartedly agree: mercy is only mercy to the one who knows he is in need. The Church proclaims this in every Mass—“Lord, have mercy”—and in every confession, where the sinner kneels not in despair, but in hope. Christ’s mercy is not a licence to sin, but the power to rise again. As St. Paul says, “Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means!” (Romans 6:1–2).

Finally, I would clarify that justification is not by “faith alone” in the Lutheran sense, but by grace through faith, hope, and charity. The sacraments are not only symbols but also real encounters with Christ, instituted by Him for our salvation. Baptism, Eucharist, and Confession are not human inventions but divine gifts, through which grace is truly conferred.

On the Last Day, I will not appeal to my own righteousness, nor to my achievements, nor even to my faith as a possession. I will cling to Christ, crucified and risen, and to the mercy He offers through His Church. And I trust that He who began a good work in me will bring it to completion.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 7
16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Rom 2:4-16 explains lost vs saved in detail

 

[BobRyan]

After I had become a Catholic, I had an SMS conversation with a Presbyterian minister who expressed fairly profound surprise that I had embraced Catholicism and thus had returned to Christianity. What he wrote in his SMSs gave me the impression that he expected that I would have become an atheist and would have never returned to Christianity

Returned to Christianity after being??

 

[Carl Emerson]

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Mark 16

“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned. 17 These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Returned to Christianity after being??

that is explained in The original post, have you read it fully?