The Ten vs the 603

Bob S · Nov 19, 2023

Gary K said:
I know Sunday keepers like to think that is a NT law but it isn't. God's law is eternal. All of it. This establishes forever the continuity of God's law.

JN15:10 If you obey My teaching, you will live in My love. In this way, I have obeyed My Father’s teaching and live in His love. 11 I have told you these things so My joy may be in you and your joy may be full. 12 “This is what I tell you to do: Love each other just as I have loved you. 13 No one can have greater love than to give his life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do what I tell you.

John 13:34
I give you a new Law. You are to love each other. You must love each other as I have loved you. 35 If you love each other, all men will know you are My followers.”

Gary K · Nov 19, 2023

Bob S said:
JN15:10 If you obey My teaching, you will live in My love. In this way, I have obeyed My Father’s teaching and live in His love. 11 I have told you these things so My joy may be in you and your joy may be full. 12 “This is what I tell you to do: Love each other just as I have loved you. 13 No one can have greater love than to give his life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do what I tell you.

John 13:34
I give you a new Law. You are to love each other. You must love each other as I have loved you. 35 If you love each other, all men will know you are My followers.”

What's your point? I just spent a lot of time demonstrating from a lot of scripture and the writings of the Jews that they did not love anyone, including each other as they murdered Jesus. That is unless you think racism is loving those who aren't of your nation or you're beliefs. Yeah, the commandment to love one another was new to the disciples, but it was taught throughout the OT.

Luke 9: 52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Mark 9 : 33 ¶And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way?
34 But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest.
35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

Was this the disciples loving one another as Jesus loved them? So was this a new commandment to them? Were they loving anyone?

What happened to them after the HS was poured on Pentacost?

Acts 2: 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

So after Pentacost did the disciples keep the commandment of the OT?

Leviticus 19: 18 ¶Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.

Gary K · Nov 19, 2023

Leaf473 said:
I understand that there was racism. But not every Jewish person was a pharisee. There were other groups... Sadducees, zealots...

Are you saying that because Jewish people were racist about samaritans, therefore they were always guilty of having idols? Every single Jewish person was guilty of breaking the commandment about not making an idol?

I am just speechless. No, there was a very small minority who weren't. Simeon, Anna, Zacharias and Elizabeth. and John the Baptist were the only ones mentioned in scripture who were actually looking for the true Messiah. Even John didn't fully understand Jesus' mission or he wouldn't have sent his disciples to Jesus to ask Him if He really was the Messiah. Even Joseph and Mary didn't really understand His mission.

Luke 2: 48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?
50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

So is saying all the Jews hyperbole or the truth? I'd say those who understood were such a tiny minority it isn't a non factual statement.

Bob S · Nov 19, 2023

Gary K said:
What's your point? I just spent a lot of time demonstrating from a lot of scripture and the writings of the Jews that they did not love anyone, including each other as they murdered Jesus. That is unless you think racism is loving those who aren't of you're nation or you're beliefs. Yeah, the commandment to love one another was new to the disciples, but it was taught throughout the OT.

Luke 9: 52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Mark 9 :
33 ¶And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way?
34 But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest.
35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

Was this the disciples loving one another as Jesus loved them? So was this a new commandment to them? Were they l loving of anyone?

What happened to them after the HS was poured on Pentacost?

Acts 2: 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
So after Pentacost did the disciples keep the commandment of the OT?

Leviticus 19: 18 ¶Thou shalt not avengeHi, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.

Why would Jesus have told us that the love commandment He gave was NEW? Maybe you should compare His commandment with the ones found in the Old Testament. It is so strange you are unable to discern what He quoted as compared to the loving our neighbors command.

Gary K · Nov 19, 2023

Leaf473 said:
I'm sure many Jews felt that way, but like any group of people, not necessarily everyone.

Anyways, there's nothing actually in the story that says those things. Also, I got confused about this, the lawyer isn't in the story. He asks the question that introduces the story.

So in the story, regarding the priest and the Levite, does it say they hated the man who was beaten? Because in the story, the priest and the Levite don't interact with the Samaritan.

Here's more about the influence of the Pharisees.

John 7: 12 And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people.
13 Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.

John 9: 22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.

John 19: 38 ¶And after this Joseph of Arimathea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.

John 20: 19 ¶Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

Leaf473 · Nov 19, 2023

Gary K said:
I just find this incredible. I can show you all kinds of evidence of extreme prejudice and you brush it off as if it meaningless. That kind of prejudice is also an idol when it consumes an entire nation. Peter had his prejudice until a message from God told him to drop it and Peter obeyed. In other words he kept the commandments of God, all ten of them.
It seems to me you have a real issue with truth. I'm sorry to have to say it but if I'm going to be honest I must. You deserve to have me be honest with you.

Showing that there is extreme prejudice in a group is not the same as showing that every single person in the group hated the target group to such a degree that it became an idol for them

Leaf473 · Nov 19, 2023

Gary K said:
No, we do not have to be slaves to sin.

That's cool, I'll reword it:
@Gary K my man, if we sin we become a slave to sin, don't we? Is it reasonable to say that we have then made an idol, put something before God?

Gary K said:
Go back and read my thread Is sinning necessary. I have used a lot of scripture in that thread, more than anyone should be willing to ignore. Do you really want to think of yourself as a slave to sin?

Matthew 1: 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The text does not say save them in their sins. The word translated as from is the following.

[*StrongsGreek*]
00575
ἀπό apó, apo'
a primary particle;
"off," i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative):--(X here-)after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for(-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-)on(-ce), since, with.
In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.

Is it not an idol to knowingly hang on to something that is demonstrably false.

Leaf473 · Nov 19, 2023

Gary K said:
I am just speechless. No, there was a very small minority who weren't. Simeon, Anna, Zacharias and Elizabeth. and John the Baptist were the only ones mentioned in scripture who were actually looking for the true Messiah. Even John didn't fully understand Jesus' mission or he wouldn't have sent his disciples to Jesus to ask Him if He really was the Messiah. Even Joseph and Mary didn't really understand His mission.

Luke 2: 48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?
50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

So is saying all the Jews hyperbole or the truth? I'd say those who understood were such a tiny minority it isn't a non factual statement.

Is that a Yes? You are saying that virtually every Jewish person had made an idol?

Leaf473 · Nov 19, 2023

Aaron112 said:
Who doubts that most people on earth (at least two thirds) serve demons ?

It's possible.

Gary K · Nov 19, 2023

Leaf473 said:
That's cool, I'll reword it:
@Gary K my man, if we sin we become a slave to sin, don't we? Is it reasonable to say that we have then made an idol, put something before God?

If you study my Is sinning necessary thread you will find out we need not be slaves to sin. God has made every provision necessary to make it possible for us not to sin. God is not unjust. He doesn't tell us to do something and then not make it possible for us to accomplish. You really think Jesus telling us to be perfect just as our Father in heaven is perfect is Him being cruel by telling us to do something we cannot do through His help?

Leaf473 · Nov 19, 2023

Gary K said:
If you study my Is sinning necessary thread you will find out we need not be slaves to sin.

It's not what I asked

Gary K said:
God has made every provision necessary to make it possible for us not to sin. God is not unjust. He doesn't tell us to do something and then not make it possible for us to accomplish.

Gary K said:
You really think Jesus telling us to be perfect just as our Father in heaven is perfect is Him being cruel by telling us to do something we cannot do through His help?

No, I don't think that

Peace be with you, my man!

Gary K · Nov 19, 2023

Aaron112 said:
I think if you remember Scripture, that some 'kings' or 'wise' men came to serve Jesus because they were looking for the Messiah/King to arrive ?
And perhaps the shepherds - did they come and bow down to Jesus ? (after the heavenly chorus alerted them) .....
And later, maybe the children who wanted to get to Jesus and who the disciples of Jesus tried to prevent ?
And probably some (though few?) others as well.... as written...

But what Messiah were the Pharisees looking for? For one who would set up a spiritual kingdom or one to set up a kingdom to rule this world? The Pharisees wanted one who would destroy the Romans and put Israel and specifically, they themselves, into power. They mistook the prophecies concerning the second coming for his first coming because that is what they wanted. They were self centered control freak hypocrites and murderers.

Gary K · Nov 19, 2023

Leaf473 said:
It's not what I asked

No, I don't think that

Peace be with you, my man!

It answers your question. We don't have to become slaves to sin but seems to me you would rather be a slave to it than overcome it through God's power. I can tell you by experience it's a much more joyful life learning to fully trust trust God than to live as a slave.

Gary K · Nov 19, 2023

Aaron112 said:
I did not see that as a question in your post.

It wasn't. But, as the Jews obviously rejected Jesus who were the looking for? An earthly king, or someone who would make possible to overcome sin.

I realize this is a foreign concept to most people as we've always been taught sin is our master but is that really true? Is God so unjust He tells us to do the impossible?

Go study all the scripture in my Is sinning necessary thread. Do you really think God gives us promises that He can't keep?

Ezekiel 36: 25 ¶Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

How hard is a heart of stone? A heart of flesh is something much softer and far pliable. His Spirit is something that enables us to walk in Hi statutes and do His Judgments. There's not a word in that passage that tell us we are incapable or that we must struggle to become righteous.

Further on in the chapter God tells us this:

Ezekiel 36: 31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord God, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

Who does all of this? God. Do you think God would do for Israel what He will not do for you and I?

Gary K · Nov 19, 2023

Aaron112 said:
That's too confusing for something simple, Gary.

What is confusing about it? God is just? God is able to keep His promises? That's too confusing for you to understand?

Leaf473 · Nov 20, 2023

Gary K said:
It answers your question. We don't have to become slaves to sin but seems to me you would rather be a slave to it than overcome it through God's power.

It doesn't answer the question, I didn't ask if we have to become slaves to sin

Gary K said:
I can tell you by experience it's a much more joyful life learning to fully trust trust God than to live as a slave.

Amen to that!

Gary K · Nov 20, 2023

Leaf473 said:
It doesn't answer the question, I didn't ask if we have to become slaves to sin

Amen to that!

Yes it does. Here was what I replied to.

@Gary K my man, if we sin we become a slave to sin, don't we? Is it reasonable to say that we have then made an idol, put something before God?

We don't have to become slaves to sin. My thread Is sinning necessary covers that that question very thoroughly with scripture. If we don't sin as a practice we will not be creating idols .

Leaf473 · Nov 20, 2023

Gary K said:
Yes it does. Here was what I replied to.

We don't have to become slaves to sin. My thread Is sinning necessary covers that that question very thoroughly with scripture. If we don't sin as a practice we will not be creating idols .

No, the question starts out, "If we sin..."

Consider the question, "If you go to the store, will you buy me some milk?"

You could respond: "I'm not going to the store."

People often communicate that way, but it doesn't actually answer the question. The question is conditional, "If..."

So there is a condition to this question, "If we sin..."

I'm sure you agree that sin does occur, or has occurred, yes? Not that it has to be that way for any particular person, but it happens, doesn't it?

Gary K · Nov 20, 2023

Leaf473 said:
No, the question starts out, "If we sin..."

Consider the question, "If you go to the store, will you buy me some milk?"

You could respond: "I'm not going to the store."

People often communicate that way, but it doesn't actually answer the question. The question is conditional, "If..."

So there is a condition to this question, "If we sin..."

I'm sure you agree that sin does occur, or has occurred, yes? Not that it has to be that way for any particular person, but it happens, doesn't it?

Yes. And if we immediately repent we are forgiven. We don't have a chance to set up an idol that way for that implies doing the same thing repetitively.

Leaf473 · Nov 20, 2023

Gary K said:
Yes. And if we immediately repent we are forgiven. We don't have a chance to set up an idol that way for that implies doing the same thing repetitively.

Good! Then was the Samaritan sinning, or was he keeping all of the laws that were given up to that time that applied to him?

The Ten vs the 603

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