The revised Old Covenant

[Lukaris]

There seem to be some Jews who believe that Jesus was a valid rabbi who kept the law of Moses and fulfilled it with a new covenant to be given to the Gentiles. So a basic view of this would be love of God & neighbor ( Matthew 22:36-40) is universal. The 10 commandments ( Exodus 20:1-17 etc.) & 613 laws given to Moses are for the Jews.

There are basically 7 moral laws ( law of Noah) for the Gentiles ( Matthew 19:16-19, Romans 13:8) that are contingent upon the Apostles council in Acts 15:1-29 ( this is acknowledged by some Jews not my guesses). The New Testament is for the Gentiles and the Old is for the Jews).

Apparently there had been false messiahs among the Jews for centuries and many came to see Jesus ( & Paul) in a more reasonable light. I don’t agree with this as enough of course but had the Jews been treated better maybe the Gospel would have been better understood

The Gospel was initially sent out to the Jews first, but they started murdering the Apostles also, so GOD turned unto the Gentiles. They murdered their own Messiah, in many respects they are under a curse because of that.

i know but the problem is that the people as a whole end up scapegoated. Whatever curse there is, is probably akin to the mark of Cain that all of us are affected by. The first Christian martyrs, like Stephen, were Jewish born. We have to be wise and harmless as much as possible ( Matthew 10:16).

Somehow I quoted my op also.

 

[Dan Perez]

Not one of those verses says that the ten commandments is written in or on a Christian's heart. You've posted most of them before and failed to make the link needed to prove your claims. You're wrong again.

But says in Rom 13:8 says you OWE nothing to no one , EXCEPT to LOVE one another , for the one loving the other

one has fulfilled the LAW

And Paul than wrote in Rom 13:9 , You shall not commit Adultery

You shall NOT commit MURDER

You shall NOT STEAL

You shall NOT TESTIFY FALSELY

You shall NOT DESIRE AFTER

You IF there is any DIFFERENCE , Commandment , it is SUMMED UP , in this word , NAMELY You shall LOVE your

NEIGHBOR as YOIRSELF

And when you the word NOT // OU , is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTIILE NGATIVE and it means you better not do it .

dan p

 

[ARBITER01]

i know but the problem is that the people as a whole end up scapegoated.

1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
1Th 2:15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drave out us, and please not God, and are contrary to all men;
1Th 2:16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always: but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Not trying to argue the point, but scripture is quite clear that they did this to themselves.

 

[The Liturgist]

The holy scriptures teach that the Law [of Moses] is the Old Covenant and that there is a New Covenant in Christ. Is the New Covenant a revision of the Old Covenant with the same Law [of Moses] being normative for Christian behaviours, including observing the ten commandments and the various specific laws that are based upon or derived from the ten commandments?

Correct. Attempts by Sabbatarians to claim otherwise are contradicted by the Institution Narrative of the Eucharist, which coincidentally their denominations do not emphasize in the way traditional liturgical churches such as the Roman church to which you belong, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches to which I belong, and our Lutheran and Anglican friends tend to emphasize it.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

If we've got a revised old covenant instead of a new covenant then why did Jesus die as the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

If we've got a revised old covenant instead of a new covenant then why did Jesus die as the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world?

Did He die so we can continue worshipping other gods, vain His name, break His holy Sabbath day, covet, murder and steal and live unholy lives? Of course not, why the New Covenant is established on better promises Heb 8:6 on how we can keep Gods holy law and not sin since our salvation is from sin Mat 1:21 no one is saved in their sins Heb 10:26-30

 

[The Liturgist]

If we've got a revised old covenant instead of a new covenant then why did Jesus die as the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world?

Indeed - and why did God Himself put on our humanity in the person of the Only Begotten Son and Logos, on the night He was betrayed, declare that which is in the chalice to be His blood of the New Covenant, if there is no New Covenant?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Indeed - and why did God Himself put on our humanity in the person of the Only Begotten Son and Logos, on the night He was betrayed, declare that which is in the chalice to be His blood of the New Covenant, if there is no New Covenant?

Who said there was no New Covenant? The Scriptures clearly tell us there is, but its established on better promises Heb 8:6 and says it still has God's law not written on a better surface- our heart Heb 8:10

 

[The Liturgist]

Who said there was no New Covenant? The Scriptures clearly tell us there is, but its established on better promises Heb 8:6 and says it still has God's law not written on a better surface- our heart Heb 8:10

I wasn’t replying to you.

 

[ARBITER01]

Do tell where is the Scripture that says the Ten Commandments that was written personally by the God of the Universe is not God’s law. What Scripture do you claim that has proved otherwise?

It is in scripture about this,....


8 For if the first covenant that was had been faultless, then no place for a second would have been sought,

9 But in finding fault with them, HE saith: "Behold, the days art coming, saith The LORD, when I wilt make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

10 Not according to the covenant that I made with their forefathers, in the day of My taking hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, for they remained not in that covenant of Mine, and I disregarded them, saith The LORD.


The New covenant is not like the old one according to GOD, as re-stated in the book of Hebrews.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It is in scripture about this,....


8 For if the first covenant that was had been faultless, then no place for a second would have been sought,

9 But in finding fault with them, HE saith: "Behold, the days art coming, saith The LORD, when I wilt make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

10 Not according to the covenant that I made with their forefathers, in the day of My taking hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, for they remained not in that covenant of Mine, and I disregarded them, saith The LORD.


The New covenant is not like the old one according to GOD, as re-stated in the book of Hebrews.

A covenant means agreement and it wasn't the same agreement, because before Israel God only made covenants with individuals. With the covenant with Israel, it was made with an entire nation representing His church. All of God's people keep God's commandments because that is what someone in Christ does John 15:10, they obey, not disobey.

 

[ARBITER01]

A covenant means agreement and it wasn't the same agreement, because before Israel God only made covenants with individuals. With the covenant with Israel, it was made with an entire nation representing His church. All of God's people keep God's commandments because that is what someone in Christ does John 15:10, they obey, not disobey.

I don't think you're really paying attention here,.... GOD specifically says that the new covenant with Israel and Judah will not be like the old one.

 

[The Liturgist]

had the Jews been treated better maybe the Gospel would have been better understood by more people in general,

More Jews became Christian than most people realize. If we look at the membership of the Christian Churches in the Middle East, Africa and the Mar Thoma Christians of India, we find substantial numbers of Christians of Jewish descent in the Middle Eastern churches among Christians of the Assyrian / Suroye / Aramaic-speaking Christians whether Antiochian Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Syriac Catholic, Melkite Greek Catholic, Assyrian Church of the East, Ancient Church of the East, Maronite Catholic and Chaldean Catholic, and among the Mar Thoma Christians of the Malabar Coast of India, whether Syriac Orthodox, Indian Orthodox, Syro-Malabar Catholic, Malankara Catholic or other jurisdictions; indeed, among the Mar Thoma Christians (also known as Nasranis), there are some of pure Jewish descent who are endogamous, and the Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox, who aside from the convert population in the Americas, are mainly descended from the Ethiopian people who practiced Judaism before becoming the third or fourth country to convert to Orthodoxy, around the same time as Georgia.

Additionally, there are Christians of Jewish descent throughout the Mediterranean; every Patriarchate has some; there are a number in the Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem, and among the Pontic Greeks who were forced to flee Turkey in 1920 (and who along with the Assyrians and Armenians were victims of the 1915 genocide), and there are some among the Cypriot Orthodox and the Alexandrian Greek Orthodox and among the Christians of Italy, particularly the south due to its historic connections to the East, and elsewhere.

That said there have of course been failures in treating Jews who did not convert, mainly in how the governments of the Roman Empire and its successor states in both the West and the East treated the Jewish population.

* hence the similarities in church architecture, since Georgians and Armenians both used the Cathedral of Holy Etchmadzin with its conical dome as a reference, and this cathedral is slightly older than the Hagia Sophia, which became the reference model for most of the rest of Eastern Orthodoxy, Coptic Orthodoxy and also after the beginning of Turkocratia, when the Ottomans stole it and desecrated it, a prototype for subsequent Turkish mosques, but this is actually of benefit because when we convert the Turks to Holy Orthodoxy, their mosques are ready-made for conversion into Orthodox temples. I propose to turn the Blue Mosque into a Convent dedicated to the Dormition of the Theotokos, the New Mosque into a church dedicated to the Holy Ascension or the Holy Transfiguration of Christ our Lord, due to its position overlooking the rest of Constantinople, and I have actually drawn up conversion plans for other mosques.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I don't think you're really paying attention here,.... GOD specifically says that the new covenant with Israel and Judah will not be like the old one.

Sorry, I thought you were quoting a verse from the OT, not Hebrews. Now that I am on the same page this passage should clear up your questions.

Hebrews 8:6 clears this up, why the New Covenant is not like the old one, it was established on better promises Heb 8:6 but still contains God's law, thus saith the Lord, written on a better surface Heb 8:10. So what are the better promises of the New Covenant? This should be our focus instead of trying to force the NV to be about "new laws" when it clearly says that's not whats its established on.

 

[ARBITER01]

Hebrews 8:6 clears this up, the New Covenant is not like the old one, it was established on better promises Heb 8:6 but still contains God's law, thus saith the Lord, written on a better surface Heb 8:10.

That's not what the text says.

GOD says HE will put HIS "laws" (Plural) in our hearts. HE didn't say HE would put the law of Moses into our hearts.

So what are the better promises of the New Covenant? This should be our focus instead of trying to force the NV to be about "new laws" when it clearly says that's not whats its established on.

It is established on commandments from Jesus. We are to follow and obey Him. That is the will of The Father now. So yes, it is based on new laws.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

That's not what the text says.

GOD says HE will put HIS "laws" (Plural) in our hearts. HE didn't say HE would put the law of Moses into our hearts.

God said He would put His laws


Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

God claimed the Ten Commandments as His.

Deut 4:13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.
Exo 20: but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

So yes, it is based on new laws.

Says no Scripture. What did Jesus teach? That we no longer need to only worship God, can vain His holy name, covet, steal or break the least of these commandments- No, Jesus taught and lived the opposite Mat 5:17-30, Mat 19:17-19 John 15:10 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 15:3-14 John 15:10 1 John 2:6

 

[ARBITER01]

God said He would put His laws


Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

God claimed the Ten Commandments as His.

Deut 4:13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.


Says no Scripture. What did Jesus teach? That we no longer need to only worship God, can vain His holy name, covet, steal or break the least of these commandments- No, Jesus taught and lived the opposite Mat 5:17-30, Mat 19:17-19 John 15:10 Mark 7:7-13 Math 15:3-14

You're ignoring scripture that is being posted,......

8 For if the first covenant that was had been faultless, then no place for a second would have been sought,

9 But in finding fault with them, HE saith: "Behold, the days art coming, saith The LORD, when I wilt make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

10 Not according to the covenant that I made with their forefathers, in the day of My taking hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, for they remained not in that covenant of Mine, and I disregarded them, saith The LORD.

Do you see that text I increased the font size on??? Do you see it?????? Are you paying attention?????

According to scripture right there, the new covenant is not based on the old covenant that GOD made with Moses, so yes, it is based on new laws.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You're ignoring scripture that is being posted,......

8 For if the first covenant that was had been faultless, then no place for a second would have been sought,

9 But in finding fault with them, HE saith: "Behold, the days art coming, saith The LORD, when I wilt make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

10 Not according to the covenant that I made with their forefathers, in the day of My taking hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, for they remained not in that covenant of Mine, and I disregarded them, saith The LORD.

Do you see that text I increased the font size on??? Do you see it?????? Are you paying attention?????

According to scripture right there, the new covenant is not based on the old covenant that GOD made with Moses, so yes, it is based on new laws.

If its established on better promises how can it be the same covenant? What it doesn't say that you added, that it was established on new or better laws. It doesn't say that anywhere in the entire Bible. But it does say it has God's laws now written in the heart.

Why Jesus quoted directly from the unit of Ten saying when we lay aside the commandment of God meaning, its not for me, ones heart is far from Him, because it shows rebellion Rom 8:7-8 against what God placed in our hearts and minds- His law.

Mat 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father [a]or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people [c]draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

And if you keep reading Jesus said this path leads those who do this and those who follow, into a ditch. Why He said quoting again from the unit of Ten not to break or teach others to break, the least of these commandments Mat 5:19 If we can't believe the very teachings of Jesus Christ, how do we believe or have the faith of Jesus?

 

[ARBITER01]

If its established on better promises how can it be the same covenant? What it doesn't say that you added, that it was established on new or better laws. It doesn't say that anywhere in the entire Bible. But it does say it has God's law now written in the heart.

Why Jesus quoted directly from the unit of Ten saying when we lay aside the commandment of God meaning, its not for me, ones heart is far from Him, because it shows rebellion against what God placed in our hearts and minds- His law.

Mat 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father [a]or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people [c]draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

And if you keep reading Jesus said this path leads those who do this and those who follow, into a ditch.

I think I'll have to put you on ignore.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Who said there was no New Covenant? The Scriptures clearly tell us there is, but its established on better promises Heb 8:6 and says it still has God's law not written on a better surface- our heart Heb 8:10

Aren't you advocating for the ten commandments being written in Christian's hearts? That would be a revised old covenant, right? Revised by transferring "the Law" from stone tablets to tablets of flesh, right? Same words, same contract/covenant just different tablets.