THE LAW OF MOSES FLOWS FROM THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

[Bob S]

Paul never said the Ten Commandments are no longer the commandments of God,

Oh, how soon you forget SB. The old adage "out of sight, out of mind " applies here. In fact, you have even falsely commented on 2Cor3:6-11, claiming it does not mean what it says. The fact is that Paul did write that the 10 Commandments were only temporary and now we are guided by the Holy Spirit. They were God's commandments to Israel

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Oh, how soon you forget SB. The old adage "out of sight, out of mind " applies here. In fact, you have even falsely commented on 2Cor3:6-11, claiming it does not mean what it says. The fact is that Paul did write that the 10 Commandments were only temporary and now we are guided by the Holy Spirit. They were God's commandments to Israel

No Paul never taught the Ten Commandments were temporary and now we can sin Rom 7:7 dishonor God Rom 2:21-23 and do not need to keep the greatest commandments James 2:8 Rom 13:9 Deut 5, Deut 6 and is leading us to be an enmity to God Rom 8:7-8 and be left outside the gates of heaven Mat 7:23 Rev 22:14-15. God in His wisdom gave us the warning what people would do with Paul's writings, guess it will all get sorted out soon enough

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

No, I do not diminish God's commands for new covenant believers, but apparently you have. When I quote John in 1Jn 3:19-24 and ask you to comment all I get is IGNORE. John was not Paul, yet they were one in writing that we are not under the commands of the old covenant. John writes we are of the TRUTH if we believe in the One God sent, Jesus Christ, and LOVE one another as He loves us. Apparently, you believe another gospel with a bunch of ritual commands that had no bearing on anyone except the Israelites.

I really do not need to know which commands you think are important to observe because I have scripture that Jesus has left us and the power of the Holy Spirit to guide me into knowing the real truth. Your way is hard and fruitless. Jesus' way is so simple even a little child comprehends it.

you still do not answer a simple question because you do not know. Believing also means doing the will of GOD Like Jesus did the will of our Father in Heaven, Jesus asked us to follow the commandments to have eternal life,
Mat 19:17 “Why do you ask Me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

You can still continue to ignore what Jesus asked us to do it is your choice but I hope you will do as Jesus asked and keep the commandments.

Mat 19:18 “Which ones?” the man asked. Jesus answered, “‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness,

Mat 19:19 honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself.’”

Here is it clear Jesus was enumerating the commandments that are the Covenant.

Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’

Mat 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

Blessings Bob.

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

I notice that you keep an image of male flesh of this world. So, are you saying that a large chunk of the Second Commandment of the Old Covenant does not belong?

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

I notice that you keep an image of male flesh of this world. So, are you saying that a large chunk of the Second Commandment of the Old Covenant does not belong?

Image of Jesus from a Reconstruction of the turin shroud

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

Image of Jesus from a Reconstruction of the turin shroud

Indeed. I see you are not keeping one of the items in the Second Commandment. I certainly will not, as I find it very helpful to draw diagrams for people representing things in this world, and also I make little black-inked wooden crosses, to help keep the Cross of Christ and His blood spilled out for many in the minds of as many as I can. Would you like one? I can send anywhere you like by USPS. I make them for everyone who cares about Christ but is not going to try to obey that part of the Second of the Ten Commandments.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

I put it there For a reason but it is personal, nice trap just like a pharisee would have done but i saw it coming.

 

[guevaraj]

I make little black-inked wooden crosses, to help keep the Cross of Christ and His blood spilled out for many in the minds of as many as I can. Would you like one? I can send anywhere you like by USPS. I make them for everyone who cares about Christ but is not going to try to obey that part of the Second of the Ten Commandments.

Brother, happy Sabbath that began this Friday, May 2, 2025, at 12:20 p.m. EDT! It is still a sin if you think you are willfully violating the second commandment. However, I don't believe the second commandment is violated by making crosses like yours, unless the object is bowed down to them or served. The translators have made the passage seem more inclusive than the original. The original does not refer to the earthly, but to what is above and below the earthly. In my opinion, it refers to making the unseen seen. Here is the transliteration of the passage.

Not you shall make for yourself a carved image of any likeness that in heaven above, or that in the earth beneath, or that in the water under the earth. (Exodus 20:4 interlinear)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Bob S]

Please do not speak for me or the reasons I obey God. You are not God so would have no idea what I do or why I do it. EGW is not the reason I keep God's commandments. God is.

I have only ever quoted the Scriptures for the reason I obey God's commandments, because God gave them, both written and spoken by God, His personal Testimony. Exo 31:18 If one takes issue with it, the argument needs to be addressed with Him. I am just a servant of His, trying to live by His every Words instead of following man-made ideas and traditions Jesus warned us about Mat 15:3-14

Why do you read something into my posts that is not there? I never indicated that you observe Sabbath because of Ellen, but you cannot truthfully tell us Ellen is not the driving force of the SDA church.

 

[Bob S]

No Paul never taught the Ten Commandments were temporary and now we can sin Rom 7:7 dishonor God Rom 2:21-23 and do not need to keep the greatest commandments James 2:8 Rom 13:9 Deut 5, Deut 6 and is leading us to be an enmity to God Rom 8:7-8 and be left outside the gates of heaven Mat 7:23 Rev 22:14-15. God in His wisdom gave us the warning what people would do with Paul's writings, guess it will all get sorted out soon enough

Paul never said because we are not under the 10 commandments that we could sin. The 10 were the guide for Israel. The Holy Spirit is the guide for all mankind. That is what 2Cor3:6-11 tells us, so you are completely wrong in trying to tell the readers of the forum that Paul didn't teach the 10 were temporary. 2Cor3: 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! Transitory means temporary in case you didn't realize it SB. The ministry of death engraved in stone was temporary. They ended along with the rest of the laws of the old covenant.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Paul never said because we are not under the 10 commandments that we could sin. The 10 were the guide for Israel. The Holy Spirit is the guide for all mankind. That is what 2Cor3:6-11 tells us, so you are completely wrong in trying to tell the readers of the forum that Paul didn't teach the 10 were temporary. 2Cor3: 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! Transitory means temporary in case you didn't realize it SB. The ministry of death engraved in stone was temporary. They ended along with the rest of the laws of the old covenant.

You can't have it both ways. Claim the Ten Commandments was temporary, but also the law Paul quotes from to define what sin is when breaking Rom 7:7 and dishonoring God when breaking Rom 2:21-23 and makes up the second greatest commandment to love thy neighbor Rom 13:9 and to love God with all our heart Deut 6, Deut 5 as if someone in Christ should ever be free to sin and dishonor God not love their neighbor or love God. Jesus taught not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments and comes with a warning for those who do, I would recommend taking more seriously Mat 5:19-30 keeping our own laws/traditions in lieu of God’s commandments Jesus said again quoting directly from the Ten Commandments ones heart is far from God and worshipping Him in vain, He went on to say this path leads those who teach and follow their teachings in a ditch Mat 15:3-14 the same warning we have about misunderstanding Pauls writings and twisting Scripture which leads people to destruction 2 Peter 3:16

Our salvation is from sin Mat 1:21 no one is saved in their sins.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” [g]says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Anyway, we have been down this path too many times and you are set in your ways and no one will ever convince me we no longer need to only worship God or break the least of these commandments and we can just toss out God’s personal will and Testimony Psa 40:8 Heb 8:10 Exo 31:18 so I guess all will get sorted out soon enough. Be well.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Here is an article for those interested in going a bit deeper in their study of this passage in how Pauls teachings harmonize with God’s. We know Paul is hard to understand and can be a salvation issue by the twisting of his teachings, so best to spend time in prayerful study so we don’t have Paul completely contradict Jesus, which he would never do.

THE CHARGE

Paul says in 2 Cor. 3 that the Ten Commandments, which was written in stone (verse 3) were a ministration of death and condemnation that was abolished.

THE SHORT ANSWER

Since the law was written in the hearts of the Corinthians, and they literally became living, moving and walking epistles, it follows that the Law was not abolished, but rather changed from tables of stone to “fleshy tables of the heart” (verses 2- 3). One need not tell them to avoid stealing, killing or lying. So long as they continue submitted to the Spirit, they will live the precepts of the Law in their lives. They are “known and read by all men.” How then, pray tell, has the Ten Commandments been abolished?

Two things are mentioned as done away, the ministration of that which was engraved on stone, along with the glory that was shining on the face of Moses (verses 7-16). The latter was replaced by Christ’s more glorious face, according to verses 13-18. But what does Paul mean by “ministration?” The word holds the original meaning of service towards others. Note that it was not the Decalogue itself, but the ministration of it, or the then instituted manner of teaching and enforcing it, that was abolished, to be succeeded by the ministration of the same Law by the apostles and the Spirit (3:3, 4:1)!
The ultimate proof that the Ten Commandment are not here being spoken of as abolished is in verse 12:

“Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, [which] put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished.”

In Exodus 34 we read the story to which Paul is referring to. It says in verse 29 that “when Moses came down from Mount Sinai” the “two tablets of the Testimony were in Moses’ hand…” Thus they could look at the Decalogue. What, then, was it that they could not look at? “And when Moses had finished speaking with them, he put a veil on his face… And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses’ face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him” (verses 33-25). What the Israelites could “not stedfastly look” at was the face of Moses when he covered it. That was what was abolished, to be replaced by the face of Christ!
Unfortunately, this veil still prevented their hearts from seeing the glory of Christ when they read the scriptures. But when that heart is turned to the Lord, “the vail shall be taken away” and they shall behold “the glory of the Lord” (verses 14-18). These same people have the Law in their hearts, manifest it through their actions and as a result do not go around saying that it has been abolished.

THE LONG ANSWER

2 Corinthians 3 is the critic’s go-to when they want to claim that the Ten Commandments have been abolished, but a closer examination of each text in question reveals a different story.(6)Before speaking of what has been abolished, Paul actually establishes the Ten Commandments by revealing that the Corinthians are living examples of what the New Covenant looks like in living form. They are the epistle because, as the New Covenant promised, the Ten Commandments have been written in their hearts (cf. verses 1-3, Jer. 31:33). In other words, far from being abolished, they are reestablished in a better location, from tables of stone to “fleshy table of the heart” (verse 3). Keep in mind that we are literally talking about the Ten Commandments here, because that is the allusion when the text speaks about “tables of stone.”
What does the text mean by the heart? Not the literal organ of course. The heart represents the mind, the seat of all thoughts, intellect, passions, desires, affections and endeavors. The mind is what makes who we are in person and character, and dictates our actions in the physical realm. “For as he thinketh in his heart” says the wise man, “so is he” (Prov. 23:7). So then, if the Law was written in their hearts, it has become a natural part of their very being. One need not tell them to avoid stealing, killing or lying. They know the Law, their very impulse, so long as they continue submitted to the Spirit, is to obey God. Their lives demonstrate it’s precepts to the whole world as if they were living, walking, and talking epistles. People can read the Law in their lives and character. They are “known and read by all men.” How then, pray tell, has the Ten Commandments been abolished? Any thinking man with reasoning powers can see that such a claim flies in the face of the very point that Paul is trying to make here!
With this in mind we know for sure that what follows in this chapter cannot now say that the Ten Commandments have been abolished. Therefore, a critical look at each reference to something being abolished reveals exactly what those things were. Let us do that now:

“But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away. How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.” (verses 7-11).

Two things are mentioned as done away with here, the ministration of that which was engraved on stone, along with the glory that was shining on the face of Moses. The latter was replaced by Christ’s more glorious face, according to verses 13-18. But what does Paul mean by “ministration?” The word holds the original meaning of service towards others. Note that it was not the Decalogue itself, but the ministration of it, or the then instituted manner of teaching and enforcing it, that was abolished, to be succeeded by the ministration of the same Law by the apostles and the Spirit (3:3, 4:1)! It is like taking a man from point A to point B on a bike versus taking him on a car. The car is the better, faster way. But changing the mode of transportation does not change the man being transported. Whereas before of their own strength the people sought to reach the standard of the moral precepts of the Decalogue,(8) now God takes His people there by using His Spirit to write the Ten Commandments in their hearts.
Recall the New Covenant promise, “I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts.” “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].” (Jer. 31:33, Eze. 36:26-27). Clearly what was removed was the manner in which that law is given. The ministration changed, not the Law.
The ultimate proof that the Ten Commandment are not here being spoken of as abolished is in verse 12:

“Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, [which] put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished.”

In Exodus 34 we read the story to which Paul is referring to. It says in verse 29 that “when Moses came down from Mount Sinai” the “two tablets of the Testimony were in Moses’ hand…” Thus they could look at the Decalogue. What, then, was it that they could not look at? “And when Moses had finished speaking with them, he put a veil on his face… And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses’ face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him” (verses 33-25). What the Israelites could “not stedfastly look” at was the face of Moses when he covered it. That was what was abolished, to be replaced by the face of Christ!
Unfortunately, this veil still prevented their hearts from seeing the glory of Christ when they read the scriptures. But when that heart is turned to the Lord, “the vail shall be taken away” and they shall behold “the glory of the Lord” (verses 14-18).

Two things remain to be addressed. What did Paul mean when he said that the letter kills, and why did he address the Ten Commandments as the ministration of death and condemnation? One answer will suffice to reply to both these questions. The phrase “letter of the law” is an idiomatic phrase contrasting the spiritual, or principles of the law from the literal keeping of the words of the law. That there are these two aspects to the Law is made crystal clear by Jesus when he used the seventh commandment as an example. One can keep the letter (literally having relations with another woman outside your marriage) and yet break the spiritual aspect (lusting after that woman in your heart).(10) When one tries to keep the letter of the law, without the spiritual principles, you will fail, and thus be condemned to death by it. Moreover, when you are not aware of the Law, it will condemn you once you do become aware of it, because you will see that you are in violation. This is why the Law is called the ministration of death and condemnation, because it kills you and condemns you when you break it, not when you keep it!
Paul does not go deep into explaining what he means by death and condemnation here, but he does in Romans. Notice:

“What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all [manner of evil] desire. For apart from the law sin [was] dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which [was] to [bring] life, I found to [bring] death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed [me].” (Rom. 7:7-11)

It was the moment he became aware that he was in violation of the tenth commandment that the Law condemned him to death. You see the problem was not in keeping the commandment, but in not keeping the commandment! Note the next three verses:

“Therefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.” (Rom 7:12-14).

Three important details I want to highlight here:

1. The fact that the Law points out his sin places no fault on the law, but on him. Thus the Law is “holy, just and good.”
2. It was sin that produced death in him. The commandment pointed out his fault, and in this way brings death only when you are in violation of it!
3. Did the fact that the commandment pointed out his sin mean that he no longer had to keep it? Of course not! He clearly said that that which is good, the Law, has not become death to him.

It would not be the first time that the Law is spoken of in this manner. Notice how David speaks of the Law in the same way but uses that as motivation to actually keep it!

“All Your commandments [are] faithful; They persecute me wrongfully; Help me! They almost made an end of me on earth, But I did not forsake Your precepts. Revive me according to Your lovingkindness, So that I may keep the testimony of Your mouth.” (Psa. 119:86-88).

The critics view their inability of keeping the Law as a reason to avoid it or believe it must have been abolished. But the Bible views our inability to keep it as a reason to cry out to God for strength to obey!

Now, how can the Law be both death/condemnation and also “holy, just and good?” As explained above, it is death when breaking it, but life when keeping it. The old “ministration” of the Ten Commandments under Moses came with punishments and death when broken. Since the people could not keep the Law (Heb. 8:8), God now has a new ministration, the ministration of righteousness. God is now placing the Law in the heart of the individual who desires it, causing him to obey it, and thus avoiding the penalty that comes with breaking it. It is too bad that the critics interpret 2 Cor. 3 to mean that the Law has been abolished. Not only is that contrary to the context, but it leads the believer to go on breaking a Law he thinks is abolished!
The very next chapter says that the life of Christ is made “manifest” through the believer (2 Cor. 4:10-11). This is the very essence of the New Covenant. Christ lives His life, a life of obedience, through the acts of the believer, essentially causing him to live the moral precepts of the Law that has been written in his heart. So rather then going around saying that the Ten Commandments have been abolished, the believer, living under the New Covenant, will both manifest obedience to them through his acts and proclaim the importance of obedience to others as well.

Does 2 Corinthians 3 abolish the ten commandments? - Advent Defense League

adventdefenseleague.com

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Paul never said because we are not under the 10 commandments that we could sin. The 10 were the guide for Israel. The Holy Spirit is the guide for all mankind. That is what 2Cor3:6-11 tells us, so you are completely wrong in trying to tell the readers of the forum that Paul didn't teach the 10 were temporary. 2Cor3: 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! Transitory means temporary in case you didn't realize it SB. The ministry of death engraved in stone was temporary. They ended along with the rest of the laws of the old covenant.

yes transitory means from the tables of stone to our hearts and minds, this is what is means, (jeremiah 31:31-33) you are still stuck on the word fulfill, I have looked up the usage of this word in the gospels, and in different translations, and in french also that is closer to Greek than English. I am putting a thread together and will send you the link, once it is ready.

Have a good sabbath.

 

[DamianWarS]

The issue is not the law, the issue is trying to separate Christ law as if its different than God's commandments. You do know that Christ is God and all their laws are the same? The commandments of God have always been fulfilled by love. No one loves God by worshipping other gods, or not using His name in a holy manner, or bowing to idols or breaking God's holy Sabbath day, no one loves their fellow man by stealing, lying, committing adultery etc. Why the love of God is keeping the commandments of God 1 John 5:3

I only speak of lawful action taught by Christ, nothing is broken.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Paul never said because we are not under the 10 commandments that we could sin. The 10 were the guide for Israel. The Holy Spirit is the guide for all mankind. That is what 2Cor3:6-11 tells us, so you are completely wrong in trying to tell the readers of the forum that Paul didn't teach the 10 were temporary. 2Cor3: 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! Transitory means temporary in case you didn't realize it SB. The ministry of death engraved in stone was temporary. They ended along with the rest of the laws of the old covenant.

Ho Bob, here is the link I said I would post;

Matthew 5:17-18 "I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill" Does Fulfill mean "to end" or "to accomplish, complete"?

The word "fulfill" in Matthew, particularly in the context of the New Testament, generally means to accomplish or to complete rather than to end something. It's often used in relation to prophecies or promises, indicating that what was predicted or spoken has come to pass in its entirety. Let's...

www.christianforums.com

 

[DamianWarS]

May I comment on your very wise and thought-out post? My comment is that God never intended for Gentile nations to adhere to the covenant He gave to those who came out of Egypt. There is no indication that God ever changed the covenant to include any other nation. The Law of the covenant was specifically for Israel.

I agree, (but I'll leave the personal comments regarding SB out of it) however regardless of your heritage Christ's law happens to still produce lawful action (even if that's not your focus). So it's a win win regardless of what approach you take. We may value the law and keep it through Christ's law which Christ shows as a mechanism of lawful action to law-keeping Jews (pre-cross) or we may value Christ's law and NT teaching without thinking of how it effects law knowing as James puts it "you are doing right" (James 2:8).

In both cases Christ's law is the practice but so long as it's Christ's law I'm indifferent to the labels given it. We need to grow beyond the superficial and learn to be led by the spirit which is the goal. Anyone led by the spirit will break no law and won't be keeping a law check list in their back pocket ready to pounce when someone steps out of line. in that space the semantics seem silly to fight about since we are all brothers/sisters in Christ but if we keep Christ law we are doing right and that should be good enough. Let's embrace the love aspect of brothers/sisters, not the rivalry.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

May I comment on your very wise and thought-out post? My comment is that God never intended for Gentile nations to adhere to the covenant He gave to those who came out of Egypt. There is no indication that God ever changed the covenant to include any other nation. The Law of the covenant was specifically for Israel.

Jesus' rebuke was entirely with the Jews much of which was over Sabbath issues. Jesus never rebuked Gentiles for not observing any of the rituals including the weekly Sabbath. Not one letter in the New Testament ever spoke of anyone having to observe a day. Instead, we find just the opposite, Paul especially wrote that we are not under the dictates of the Law of the old covenant. SB's church prophet wrote that all are subject to Sabbath observance, tithing and food laws of the old covenant. If members do not tithe, they lose their eternal inheritance. If anyone has ever heard of Sabbath keeping and refuse to observe it, they are lost. This is drilled into them and hence we see it in SB's posts.

Bob, there are indications in the Torah that anyone could join with God's people do a search with the words sojourn or sojourner or stranger(s) depends on the version you use but these appear in KJV