Sabbatarianism

[Soyeong]

You do not make any sense. The 7th day is the 7th day. Period.

It is the 7th day from the start of Creation, not from whenever you feel like starting to count. There is no evidence in the Bible that the Israelites permitted to pick whatever day they wanted to be their 7th day, but rather they kept it together as a community when God gave them a double portion of manna.

 

[trophy33]

It is the 7th day from the start of Creation, not from whenever you feel like starting to count.

Cool. But nonsensical. Show me a calendar week since the Big Bang 14 billion years ago, being kept still the same, by... whom? Protons and neutrons?

The 7-day week is a cultural thing, since Babylonians and Sumerians. They based the number on the number of visible celestial bodies (the Sun, Moon and 5 planets).

They named the days after those celestial bodies and the 7th day was considered a day of rest, even though from different reasons than in the book of Exodus. They counted each 7th day from New Moon (7th, 14th, 21st, 28th) a day in which certain activities were prohibited. They thought these are "evil days", though.

Hebrews adopted many Babylonian concepts but gave them different or even opposite cultural meanings.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

Exodus does not care about Constantine, ISO or what nations call any day in their language. It only says that the 7th day should be a Sabbath rest.

If your 7th day is Sunday, in your culture and state, then you should hypothetically keep Sunday, if you believe you are still to literally follow the Exodus commandment.

Sunday is the 1st day of the week on which Yeshua was raised .. our weekly calendar is still the same as the one of the 1st century. The Bible does not speak about the Sabbath day as just randomly any 7-th day ... the week days were very specific. And a Sabbath day (7th day of the weekly cycle) by definition cannot be also the Sunday (the 1st day). The weekly cycle of Yeshua's era is the same as ours - it's illogical/impossible to state a Sunday might as well be called a 7th-day aka Sabbath Day. I don't remember any church father who has ever held that position.

This is all still orthogonal to the issue whether a Gentile believer in this era should keep the Sabbath Day as found in Generis or the Torah.

Just for my information - do I recall correctly you hold the 'supersessionism' / 'replacement' theology position? I.e. a physical / people of Israel does not play a role anymore in Gods plan and future dealing of Him with this world?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

There is no commandment to keep the seventh day in the gospels.

 

[trophy33]

There is no commandment to keep the seventh day in the gospels.

Nor anywhere else in the New Testament. Nor in other Christian first church writings. Nor in any Christian creeds. Etc.

 

[trophy33]

Sunday is the 1st day of the week on which Yeshua was raised

According to the Jewish week in the 1st century. But for example in Europe, Sunday is the 7th day of the week. Therefore, the Seventh Day Adventists in Europe actually live according to a different week than the society around them. If they, for example, work as accountants or clerks etc, they must keep two different weeks in their heads.

 

[trophy33]

Just for my information - do I recall correctly you hold the 'supersessionism' / 'replacement' theology position? I.e. a physical / people of Israel does not play a role anymore in Gods plan and future dealing of Him with this world?

Any nation plays a role in God's plan, any person, even every atom does. But if you mean whether ethnic Jews or their culture or their opinions etc. have some special theological or spiritual position in Christianity/the kingdom of God as such, then my answer is no.

 

[BobRyan]

The Catholic Church views seventh-day Sabbatarianism, which advocates worship on Saturday as the Sabbath, as a misunderstanding of Christian tradition.

first of all -- I really do like the genuine and logical conclusion you make for your premises -- the problem is that your premise is not accurate.

1. the term "Sabbatarianism" is not found in the Bible.
2. If keeping the Sabbath in its unaltered God-given form - the 7th day of the week Ex 20:8-11 -- then all the saints of Heb 11, and all the writers of the NT were "Sabbatarians"
3. Paul was engaged in Gospel preaching to gentiles and jews "Every Sabbath" Acts 18:4
4. Gentiles ask for more Gospel preaching to be scheduled for them again "The NEXT Sabbath" in Acts 13 at which point they invite almost "the entire town"

The Church teaches that Sunday, the day of Christ's resurrection, is the Lord's Day

The Catholic church teaches that the LORD's day is the 7th day of the week "as God gave it".

But that later the Catholic Church "changed it"

and the proper day for Christian worship. This shift from Saturday to Sunday worship began in the early Church and is rooted in the New Testament,

Not according to the Catholic Church statement about what is not actually in the Bible.

======================== EXAMPLE
"The Faith Explained" Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.
1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" by Leo Trese page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

"nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

================================== next example
Convert's Catechism

Full text of "The convert's catechism of Catholic doctrine"
3. The Third Commandment.
Q. What is the Third Commandment?
A. The Third Commandment is: Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.
---------------------------50
Q. Which is the Sabbath day ?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday ?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 336), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.

Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?

A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.

Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her.


Q. What does the Third Commandment command?
A. The Third Commandment commands us to sanctify Sunday as the Lord's Day.

=========================== next example
Thomaston, Georgia
May 22, 1934

Pop Pius XI
Rome, Italy

Dear Sir;
Is the accusation true, that Protestants accuse you of? They say you
changed the Seventh Day Sabbath to the, so-called, Christian Sunday:
Identical with the First Day of the week. If so, when did you make the
change, and by what authority?

Yours very truly,
J. L. Day

The Reply:
THE CATHOLIC EXTENSION MAGAZINE
180 Wabash Ave., Chicago, Illinois
(Under the Blessing of Pop Pius XI)​

Dear sir:
Regarding the change from the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the
Christian Sunday, I wish to draw your attention to the facts:

> (1) That Protestants, who accept the Bible as the only rule of faith and religion, should by all means go back to the observance of the Sabbath.
The fact that they do not, but on the contrary observe the Sunday, stultifies them in the eyes of every thinking man.

(2) We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith.
Besides the Bible we have the living Church, the authority of the Church,
as a rule to guide us. ...
(3) We also say that of all Protestants, the Seventh-day Adventists are
the only group that reason correctly and are consistent with their
teachings. It is always somewhat laughable to see the Protestant Churches,
in pulpit and legislature, demand the observance of Sunday of which there
is nothing in the Bible.

With best wishes,
Peter R. Tramer, Editor

 

[BobRyan]

The Church also emphasises that the Sabbath commandment is fulfilled in Christ, who offers eternal rest and salvation.

The Catholic church says it is a mortal sin to avoid the Sabbath on the actual day that the Sabbath is to be kept. (in their view it is of course week-day-1 even though they do not have a single text in the Bible calling week-day-1 the Sabbath)

Therefore, the observance of Sunday is not merely about following a rule but celebrating the new covenant established through Jesus.

Jer 31:31-34 is the New Covenant in scripture .. .quoted verbatim from the OT in Heb 8. unchanged.

Jesus ratified it, and of course Gen 2:1-4 is Jesus creating it as Ex 20:8-11 and Heb 8 point out.

 

[BobRyan]

According to the Jewish week in the 1st century. But for example in Europe, Sunday is the 7th day of the week.

Sunday "became the 7th day" of the week in Europe late in the 20th century. If next year they change to having Tuesday as the 7th day of week -- that too would not change the Bible

Therefore, the Seventh Day Adventists in Europe actually live according to a different week than the society around them. If they, for example, work as accountants or clerks etc, they must keep two different weeks in their heads.

In a world where the Bible does not change with every vote of a politician, that can indeed be the result

 

[BobRyan]

Cool. But nonsensical. Show me a calendar week since the Big Bang 14 billion years ago, being kept still the same, by... whom? Protons and neutrons?

The 7-day week is a cultural thing, since Babylonians and Sumerians. They based the number on the number of visible celestial bodies (the Sun, Moon and 5 planets).

Gen 2:1-3 is about an event long before Babylon -- and is not written from Babylon or after Babylonian captivity -- it is speaking of an event before the flood.
Ex 20:8-11 does not say "for Babylon has decided..."
Nor did Babylon ever quote Gen 2 for its laws.

Moses was not "adopting Babylonian concepts" neither was God.

2 Tim 3:15-16 God said all scripture is "inspired by God and to be used for doctrine" rather than "inspired by Babylon and not to be used for doctrine"

God said that for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 and even the Catholic church admits that in IS 66 - that term meant Saturday, the 7th day of the week.

 

[BobRyan]

And fun fact, the Seventh Day Adventists keep the 6th day in Europe and elsewhere, because they prefer name and not the week's order.

While Catholics, protestants etc gather on the 7th day.

Fun fact - the Bible does not change its law every time a politician votes something.

I guess we all knew that.

 

[BobRyan]

This shift from Saturday to Sunday worship began in the early Church and is rooted in the New Testament, where the apostles and early Christians gathered on the first day of the week.

1. Every single instance of the term Sabbath as a reference for a day of worship each week - in the NT - is always the 7th day of the week. The day when the Synagogue attendees worshipped - see Acts 13 and Acts 18:4.
2. The NT church knew nothing of a week-day-1 "Sabbath" each week from what we see in the actual NT text itself.
3. IF they had the idea that the term "Sabbath" would from now on be a reference to the first day of the week - they would have said it - at least once kind of the way they repeatedly said that the Gospel/salvation was not just for Jews but also for gentiles - repeatedly.

 

[trophy33]

Gen 2:1-3 is about an event long before Babylon -- and is not written from Babylon or after Babylonian captivity -- it is speaking of an event before the flood.
Ex 20:8-11 does not say "for Babylon has decided..."
Nor did Babylon ever quote Gen 2 for its laws.

Moses was not "adopting Babylonian concepts" neither was God.

2 Tim 3:15-16 God said all scripture is "inspired by God and to be used for doctrine" rather than "inspired by Babylon and not to be used for doctrine"

God said that for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 and even the Catholic church admits that in IS 66 - that term meant Saturday, the 7th day of the week.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

There is no commandment to keep the seventh day in the gospels.

The Sabbath commandment is still a commandment in the gospels Luke 23:56 because God wrote His law, which includes the seventh day Sabbath in the hearts of all His NC believers Heb 8:10 why we see Jesus and the apostles keeping every Sabbath faithfully

 

[trophy33]

The Sabbath commandment is still a commandment in the gospels Luke 23:56 because God wrote His law, which includes the seventh day Sabbath in the hearts of all His NC believers Heb 8:10 why we see Jesus and the apostles keeping every Sabbath faithfully

Do you understand the context of the commandment in the Jewish culture? They took the number of 7 from the Babylonians during their exile (it was an evil day on which some work was prohibited) and they turned it upside down (making it a sacred day for their people). They created two traditions for its reasoning - the creation drama of Gen 1 and the exodus from Egypt.

What would be a basis for a Christian today to keep it? Our ancestors did not run from Egypt, did not live in Babylon and we know that Gen 1 is not a literal history.

Let us focus on good works, love, hope, education (learning new things) etc instead. These virtues are universal, neither cultural nor ceremonial.

 

[Apple Sky]

Why almost all ancient languages Saturday translates into Sabbath.

Yes I have noticed this. In Spanish Saturday is Sábado.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Do you understand the context of the commandment in the Jewish culture? They took the number of 7 from the Babylonians during their exile (it was an evil day on which some work was prohibited) and they turned it upside down (making it a sacred day for their people). They created two traditions for its reasoning - the creation drama of Gen 1 and the exodus from Egypt.

What would be a basis for a Christian today to keep it? Our ancestors did not run from Egypt, did not live in Babylon and we know that Gen 1 is not a literal history.

Let us focus on good works, love, hope, education (learning new things) etc instead. These virtues are universal, neither cultural nor ceremonial.

I am going to have to rely on the Testimony of Jesus Christ in all of these matters, because He is the only way.

First of all, the close followers of Jesus who was in His inner circle, when Jesus rested in His tomb on the Sabbath, they also rested according to the Sabbath commandment Luke 23:56, to keep the seventh day Sabbath holy Exo 20:8-11 because Jesus never told them anything different, because the keeping of the Sabbath remains for the people of God Heb4:9NIV. God blessed, sanctified and made holy the seventh day Sabbath, it is God's holy day, the holy day of the Lord thus saith the Lord Isa 58:13- so I see why the devil is constantly attacking God's Sabbath and has made a counterfeit to everything God made. He even warned us it would happen Dan 7:25 just like history clearly shows because we can trust God's Word to lead us in the path back to Him Psa 119:105

Regarding Gen 1 not being literal, Moses wrote Genesis to be literal through the divine inspiration of God.

This is the Testimony of Jesus who said those who do not believe Moses writings:
John 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Regarding good works, everything God does is good, so is His works which we are to be mans all
Exo 32:16 Now the tablets (Ten Commandments) were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

Which we are not to forget but live by Mat 4:4
Psa 78:7That they may set their hope in God, And not forget the works of God, But keep His commandments;

As far as how to love, I am going to rely on God's Testimony for this as well, He tells us in His personal Testimony, written and spoken by God Exo 31:18
Exo 20: 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

What are we told about hope?
Psa 119:166 Lord, I hope for Your salvation, And I do Your commandments.


No wonder why the wisest man in the Bible said this:

Ecc12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:

Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.
14 For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil.

And no wonder one of the last verses in the Bible before the Revelation of Jesus Christ says this:
Rev 22:14 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

We can follow along with what the majority are saying and teaching or we can stay true to God. I am sure the majorirty who mocked Noah wished they made better choices once God closed the ark. The choice is ours and those decisions are the path we end up on Rom 6:16 Rev 22:14-15

 

[Freth]

Jesus addressed the issue of tradition vs the commandments of God in Matthew 15.

Matthew 15:1-9 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.​

If this is not a scathing rebuke and a call for commandment keeping I don't know what is. It specifically addresses putting tradition above the commandments of God.

Conclusion: God's Commandments > Tradition

Does tradition make the commandment of God of none effect? One only has to look at Sunday sacredness vs the Sabbath commandment to see that it indeed does. In case it's not clear:

Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.​

​

Read what Jesus said again.

​

Matthew 15:6-9 ...Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.​

​

What did Jesus mean when He said, "but their heart is far from me"? He summed it up in one sentence.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.​

You can find the same statement in the Ten.

Exodus 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.​

Jesus mentions worship. Worshiping in vain. The first four commandments are worship commandments, wherein is found the call to love Him and keep His commandments. The Sabbath commandment (the fourth) is of special note, considering tradition by and large has made the Sabbath of none effect.

 

[Apple Sky]

John 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Absolutely - Spot on