The Ten vs the 603

[Leaf473]

What? Emotion rather than principle?

No, I didn't say that

Is there more to loving your neighbor then following the Ten Commandments? Or is that all there is to it?

If you would like to answer this question, I think it will help you understand what I'm saying

In the story of the Good Samaritan, do the priest and the levite break any of the 10 commandments?

 

[Gary K]

No, I didn't say that

Is there more to loving your neighbor then following the Ten Commandments? Or is that all there is to it?

If you would like to answer this question, I think it will help you understand what I'm saying

I understand exactly what you're saying. The priest and the Levite broke Gods law by not fulfilling the OT law of loving their neighbor as themselves.

Leviticus 19: 17 ¶Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.*n1
18 ¶Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.

I know Sunday keepers like to think that is a NT law but it isn't. God's law is eternal. All of it. This establishes forever the continuity of God's law.

 

[Leaf473]

I understand exactly what you're saying. The priest and the Levite broke Gods law by not fulfilling the OT law of loving their neighbor as themselves.

And then the second part:
In the story, do the priest and the Levite break any of the Ten Commandments?

Leviticus 19: 17 ¶Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.*n1
18 ¶Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.

I know Sunday keepers like to think that is a NT law but it isn't.

I wouldn't call myself a "Sunday keeper", but I can't remember ever thinking that it was only a New Testament law

God's law is eternal. All of it. This establishes forever the continuity of God's law.

 

[Gary K]

And then the second part:
In the story, do the priest and the Levite break any of the Ten Commandments?



I wouldn't call myself a "Sunday keeper", but I can't remember ever thinking that it was only a New Testament law

Yes. Though shalt have no other god's before Me. They both hated the Samaritans so badly it was an idol to them.

 

[Leaf473]

Yes. Though shalt have no other god's before Me. They both hated the Samaritans so badly it was an idol to them.

Well, in the story, the beaten man is not a Samaritan. And there's nothing in the story to indicate that they hated anyone, or that any Samaritans were around when they passed by.

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 10:30 - Easy-to-Read Version

To answer this question, Jesus said, “A man was going down the road from Jerusalem to Jericho. Some robbers surrounded him, tore off his clothes, and beat him. Then they left him lying there on the ground almost dead.

www.biblegateway.com

But sure, if you want to take a very expansive reading of the Ten Commandments, then yes, all the other Commandments are in them.

But that's taking a very expansive reading, not dealing with the letters. And I'm fine with that I just go on to say take an expansive reading of the entire law, too!

 

[Gary K]

Well, in the story, the beaten man is not a Samaritan. And there's nothing in the story to indicate that they hated anyone, or that any Samaritans were around when they passed by.

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 10:30 - Easy-to-Read Version

To answer this question, Jesus said, “A man was going down the road from Jerusalem to Jericho. Some robbers surrounded him, tore off his clothes, and beat him. Then they left him lying there on the ground almost dead.

www.biblegateway.com

But sure, if you want to take a very expansive reading of the Ten Commandments, then yes, all the other Commandments are in them.

But that's taking a very expansive reading, not dealing with the letters. And I'm fine with that I just go on to say take an expansive reading of the entire law, too!

Yeah, but both the lawyer and the Levite were Pharisees and they hated the Samaritans so much they would not even say the word Samaritan. It's still having another God before God. It's still idolatry.

 

[Gary K]

Well, in the story, the beaten man is not a Samaritan. And there's nothing in the story to indicate that they hated anyone, or that any Samaritans were around when they passed by.

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 10:30 - Easy-to-Read Version

To answer this question, Jesus said, “A man was going down the road from Jerusalem to Jericho. Some robbers surrounded him, tore off his clothes, and beat him. Then they left him lying there on the ground almost dead.

www.biblegateway.com

But sure, if you want to take a very expansive reading of the Ten Commandments, then yes, all the other Commandments are in them.

But that's taking a very expansive reading, not dealing with the letters. And I'm fine with that I just go on to say take an expansive reading of the entire law, too!

Read the story again.

Luke 10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

The Pharisee wouldn't even say the word Samaritan.

 

[Leaf473]

Yeah, but both the lawyer and the Levite were Pharisees and they hated the Samaritans so much they would not even say the word Samaritan. It's still having another God before God. It's still idolatry.

I don't see anything in the story that says the lawyer or the Levite were Pharisees. Nor does anything in the story say anyone was hating anybody.

But sure, if you want to take a very expansive reading, then it's all good

 

[Leaf473]

Read the story again.

Luke 10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

The Pharisee wouldn't even say the word Samaritan.

A possible reading. Or Luke could be accenting the idea of mercy.

 

[Gary K]

A possible reading. Or Luke could be accenting the idea of mercy.

Do you remember the story of the woman at the well?

John 4: 9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

From the Babylonian Talmud.

Mar Zutra, according to others Mar Uqba, said: "Originally the Torah was given to Israel in Hebrew characters and in the Hebrew language; the second time it was given to Israel in Ezra's time, but in Assyrian characters and in the Aramaic language; finally the Assyrian characters and the Hebrew language were selected for Israel, and the Hebrew characters and the Aramaic language were left to the Hediotim (Idiots). Who are meant by Idiots? Said R. Hisda: The Samaritans. What is meant by Hebrew characters? Said R. Hisda: The Libnuah characters.

Another quote demonstrating the Jews attitude towards the Samaritans.

Cattle must not be placed in the inns of the heathens. (See foot-note, p. 41.) "And
the cows went straight forward," etc. What does this expression mean? It reads (Jos. x. 13): "And the sun stood still, written in the book of Yasher." What is the book of Yasher? One must not stay alone even with two women. If an Israelite while on the road, happened to be accompanied by a heathen, etc, One must not confine a heathen because she brought up a person to idolatry, etc. A city in which there is no Jewish physician, but a Samaritan and a heathen, the heathen shall circumcise and not the Samaritan.

And another.

"Put not a bath-house," etc. There is a Boraitha: R. Simeon b. Gimalia said: One must not rent his bath-house to a heathen because the bath is named after the owner and the heathen does his labor on Sabbath and holidays (and people may think that the Israelites themselves do this). But how is it to a Samaritan? It may be rented, although he works on the minor festivals? On minor festivals, we Israelites also are permitted to heat baths. But let us see why it is permitted to rent a field to a heathen, although he does labor on Sabbath? Because people know that the gardener is doing work for himself. Why not say the same concerning a bath-house? It is because usually a field is hired to a gardener, which is not the case with bathhouses. There is another Boraitha: R. Simeon b. Eliezar: One must not rent his field to a Samaritan because it is named after him, and the Samaritan works the field during the minor festivals. But how is it with a heathen? It is allowed, because people know that he does it for himself; why not say the same concerning a Samaritan? R. Simeon b. Eliezar does not consider the reason of a gardener at all, and his reason why it is allowed to a heathen is that if we tell him that be should not work, he will listen to, which is not the case with a Samaritan, who thinks that he knows better than we do.

This demonstrates the attitudes the Jews had towards the Samaritans. Who were the Samaritans? Descendants of the 10 tribes of Israel. Samaria was the capital of the northern kingdom. They were the people who gave the Jews a bad time when rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem after the captivity of Babylon.

Ezra 4: 1 But it came to pass, that when Sanballat heard that we builded the wall, he was wroth, and took great indignation, and mocked the Jews.
2 And he spake before his brethren and the army of Samaria, and said, What do these feeble Jews? will they fortify themselves? will they sacrifice? will they make an end in a day? will they revive the stones out of the heaps of the rubbish which are burned?

 

[Leaf473]

Do you remember the story of the woman at the well?

John 4: 9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

From the Babylonian Talmud.

Mar Zutra, according to others Mar Uqba, said: "Originally the Torah was given to Israel in Hebrew characters and in the Hebrew language; the second time it was given to Israel in Ezra's time, but in Assyrian characters and in the Aramaic language; finally the Assyrian characters and the Hebrew language were selected for Israel, and the Hebrew characters and the Aramaic language were left to the Hediotim (Idiots). Who are meant by Idiots? Said R. Hisda: The Samaritans. What is meant by Hebrew characters? Said R. Hisda: The Libnuah characters.

Another quote demonstrating the Jews attitude towards the Samaritans.

Cattle must not be placed in the inns of the heathens. (See foot-note, p. 41.) "And
the cows went straight forward," etc. What does this expression mean? It reads (Jos. x. 13): "And the sun stood still, written in the book of Yasher." What is the book of Yasher? One must not stay alone even with two women. If an Israelite while on the road, happened to be accompanied by a heathen, etc, One must not confine a heathen because she brought up a person to idolatry, etc. A city in which there is no Jewish physician, but a Samaritan and a heathen, the heathen shall circumcise and not the Samaritan.

And another.

"Put not a bath-house," etc. There is a Boraitha: R. Simeon b. Gimalia said: One must not rent his bath-house to a heathen because the bath is named after the owner and the heathen does his labor on Sabbath and holidays (and people may think that the Israelites themselves do this). But how is it to a Samaritan? It may be rented, although he works on the minor festivals? On minor festivals, we Israelites also are permitted to heat baths. But let us see why it is permitted to rent a field to a heathen, although he does labor on Sabbath? Because people know that the gardener is doing work for himself. Why not say the same concerning a bath-house? It is because usually a field is hired to a gardener, which is not the case with bathhouses. There is another Boraitha: R. Simeon b. Eliezar: One must not rent his field to a Samaritan because it is named after him, and the Samaritan works the field during the minor festivals. But how is it with a heathen? It is allowed, because people know that he does it for himself; why not say the same concerning a Samaritan? R. Simeon b. Eliezar does not consider the reason of a gardener at all, and his reason why it is allowed to a heathen is that if we tell him that be should not work, he will listen to, which is not the case with a Samaritan, who thinks that he knows better than we do.

This demonstrates the attitudes the Jews had towards the Samaritans. Who were the Samaritans? Descendants of the 10 tribes of Israel. Samaria was the capital of the northern kingdom. They were the people who gave the Jews a bad time when rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem after the captivity of Babylon.

Ezra 4: 1 But it came to pass, that when Sanballat heard that we builded the wall, he was wroth, and took great indignation, and mocked the Jews.
2 And he spake before his brethren and the army of Samaria, and said, What do these feeble Jews? will they fortify themselves? will they sacrifice? will they make an end in a day? will they revive the stones out of the heaps of the rubbish which are burned?

I'm sure many Jews felt that way, but like any group of people, not necessarily everyone.

Anyways, there's nothing actually in the story that says those things. Also, I got confused about this, the lawyer isn't in the story. He asks the question that introduces the story.

So in the story, regarding the priest and the Levite, does it say they hated the man who was beaten? Because in the story, the priest and the Levite don't interact with the Samaritan.

 

[Gary K]

I'm sure many Jews felt that way, but like any group of people, not necessarily everyone.

Anyways, there's nothing actually in the story that says those things. Also, I got confused about this, the lawyer isn't in the story. He asks the question that introduces the story.

So in the story, regarding the priest and the Levite, does it say they hated the man who was beaten? Because in the story, the priest and the Levite don't interact with the Samaritan.

Why does racism have to be explicitly mentioned to have to exist? Sorry, but looks to me like an attempt to deny truth.

I didn't say that the Levite and the priest and any interactions with the Samaritan. I said the Pharisees Jesus told the story to were racists. There's so much evidence in the NT of this I have a hard time understanding why any Christian would want to deny it unless it's to hold onto a belief that the evidence says is not true. Remember Peter and Cornelius and God being no respecter of persons? Remember Paul and neither Jew nor Greek and Christ breaking down the middle wall of partition?

 

[Leaf473]

Why does racism have to be explicitly mentioned to have to exist? Sorry, but looks to me like an attempt to deny truth.

I didn't say that the Levite and the priest and any interactions with the Samaritan. I said the Pharisees Jesus told the story to were racists. There's so much evidence in the NT of this I have a hard time understanding why any Christian would want to deny it unless it's to hold onto a belief that the evidence says is not true. Remember Peter and Cornelius and God being no respecter of persons? Remember Paul and neither Jew nor Greek and Christ breaking down the middle wall of partition?

I understand that there was racism. But not every Jewish person was a pharisee. There were other groups... Sadducees, zealots...

Are you saying that because Jewish people were racist about samaritans, therefore they were always guilty of having idols? Every single Jewish person was guilty of breaking the commandment about not making an idol?

 

[Gary K]

I understand that there was racism. But not every Jewish person was a pharisee. There were other groups... Sadducees, zealots...

Are you saying that because Jewish people were racist about samaritans, therefore they were always guilty of having idols? Every single Jewish person was guilty of breaking the commandment about not making an idol?

The Pharisees were the religious leaders of the day and they taught the people to hate the Samaritans, Look at Peter and his prejudice against Gentiles.

Acts 10: 28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

That's the kind of influence the Pharisees had on the everyday Jew.

Here is a quote from an ex Jew who became a Christian, He was raised to become a rabbi as his birthday was on the day of atonement and the Jews thought that meant he might become the Savior.

Here is how the Jews of Christ's day thought. Here is a quote from his book Practical Lessons from the Experience of Israel.

If a Jew were compelled to transact any business with a Gentile, he was obliged to cleanse himself both before and after the meeting. If a Gentile were invited into the home of a Jew, the Gentile must not be left alone in the house during any portion of the time of his visit. If he were, then all the food in the house became unclean; and everything connected with the rooms through which the Gentile passed was defiled.
If a Jew were obliged to purchase any article of clothing, furniture, or any other utensil for
domestic purposes from a Gentile, after he brought it to his house, he first had to wash his hands, because of his defilement in touching the object. Then the article itself would have to be cleansed, scoured, and thoroughly renovated. If any Gentile lived in the same community with a Jew, and peradventure the Gentile was to have some festal celebration, for at least three days before this festal occasion, the Jew should have no transaction with the Gentile. If the Jew should have any intercourse with him during this time, he would be considered as assisting the Gentile in preparing his festivities.
If Gentiles were celebrating any heathen festivity, the Jew, if it were possible, should not pass
through the city at this time, for fear that some bit of uncleanness might adhere to him.
It was forbidden to the Jew under most any circumstance, to do anything for a non-Jew. A Jewess was forbidden to assist a Gentile woman when giving birth to a child; she was not permitted to feed a child of another nationality, because then it would not only be defiling the Jewess, but would at the same time, by lengthening the life of the infant, encourage idolatry.
If a Gentile met with a disaster, such as having his house destroyed by fire, it was permissible for the Jew to assist him only in extreme cases; and these extreme cases had so many limitations and modifications, that the poor Gentile might have his house reduced to ashes and everything in it destroyed before he could receive any assistance.
A Jew must not have any part in the erection of any dwelling for a Gentile; this would be a
defilement, and would cause him to become unclean. In the construction of no buildings was he permitted to have part.
A Jew must not sell, lease, or permit the use of any lands, houses, or real estate to a Gentile; for, after the Gentile had touched it, especially if he had used the house or land, all was unclean and defiled.
If a Gentile brought anything to a Jew as a gift, or for any other purpose, the Jew must not permit him to bring it into the house. Should the non-Jew succeed in bringing it into the house, the goods must be destroyed, and the house cleansed.

And you would have me believe that not all Jews hated the Gentiles? They hated the Samaritans even more than than they Gentiles if you will remember from my last post.

 

[Gary K]

The Pharisees were the religious leaders of the day and they taught the people to hate the Samaritans, Look at Peter and his prejudice against Gentiles.

Acts 10: 28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

That's the kind of influence the Pharisees had on the everyday Jew.

Here is a quote from an ex Jew who became a Christian, He was raised to become a rabbi as his birthday was on the day of atonement and the Jews thought that meant he might become the Savior.

Here is how the Jews of Christ's day thought. Here is a quote from his book Practical Lessons from the Experience of Israel.



And you would have me believe that not all Jews hated the Gentiles? They hated the Samaritans even more than than they Gentiles if you will remember from my last post.

Here is more from the same book on the influence of the Pharisees.

15. They were putting themselves in the place of God to the people; their sayings were placed
upon equality with God’s teachings. Hence we read that the written law was like water; but the oral law,
Mishna, was like wine: the Gemara, like spiced wine. Some went as far as to say that the words of the
scribes are lovely above the words of the law (meaning the written law), for the words of the written law
are weighty and light; but the words of the scribes are all weighty. One, Rabbi Judah, son of Tamai, said:
“A child at five years should study the Bible, at ten the Mishna, at fifteen the Gernara.”
From this last statement it can be seen that three times as much value is placed upon the words of
men as upon the words of God. The person as he comes to years of maturity should regard the words of the
Scripture only one-third as much as he does the words of the rabbis. Yes, they go so far as to say:
“Yea, though they should tell thee that thy right hand is the left, and the left hand that it is the
right, it must be believed.”
It is not surprising, then, that the Savior condemned those teachers for making void the word of
God by their tradition. By their multiplicity of maxims they enslaved the man; they put the word of God
aside, in order that their words might be highly esteemed.

 

[Leaf473]

The Pharisees were the religious leaders of the day

Some leaders were pharisees, other sadducees. I believe there were other groups as well.

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 23:6 - New American Standard Bible

But Paul, perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, began crying out in the Council, “Brothers, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!”

www.biblegateway.com

...and they taught the people to hate the Samaritans, Look at Peter and his prejudice against Gentiles.

Acts 10: 28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Prejudice, yes. I don't see anything in that passage that says Peter hated Samaritans to such a degree that it had become an idol for him.

That's the kind of influence the Pharisees had on the everyday Jew.

The Pharisees had influence, also people from James

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 2:12-13 - New American Standard Bible

For prior to the coming of some men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and separate himself, fearing those from the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

www.biblegateway.com

Paul says it's hypocrisy, he doesn't say it's hatred.

Here is a quote from an ex Jew who became a Christian, He was raised to become a rabbi as his birthday was on the day of atonement and the Jews thought that meant he might become the Savior.

Here is how the Jews of Christ's day thought. Here is a quote from his book Practical Lessons from the Experience of Israel.

And you would have me believe that not all Jews hated the Gentiles?

Yes. Deal with a group of any size, and you'll find variation. The Pharisees in general opposed to Jesus, not all did.

Bible Gateway passage: John 3:1-2 - New American Standard Bible

The New Birth - Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; this man came to Jesus at night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

www.biblegateway.com

They hated the Samaritans even more than than they Gentiles if you will remember from my last post.

I'm sure there was lots of hatred going around. How did the Samaritans view the Jews?

 

[Leaf473]

@Gary K my man, when we sin we become a slave to sin, don't we? Is it reasonable to say that we have then made an idol, put something before God?

 

[Gary K]

Some leaders were pharisees, other sadducees. I believe there were other groups as well.

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 23:6 - New American Standard Bible

But Paul, perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, began crying out in the Council, “Brothers, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!”

www.biblegateway.com

Prejudice, yes. I don't see anything in that passage that says Peter hated Samaritans to such a degree that it had become an idol for him.


The Pharisees had influence, also people from James

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 2:12-13 - New American Standard Bible

For prior to the coming of some men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and separate himself, fearing those from the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

www.biblegateway.com

Paul says it's hypocrisy, he doesn't say it's hatred.



Yes. Deal with a group of any size, and you'll find variation. The Pharisees in general opposed to Jesus, not all did.

Bible Gateway passage: John 3:1-2 - New American Standard Bible

The New Birth - Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; this man came to Jesus at night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

www.biblegateway.com

I'm sure there was lots of hatred going around. How did the Samaritans view the Jews?

I just find this incredible. I can show you all kinds of evidence of extreme prejudice and you brush it off as if it meaningless. That kind of prejudice is also an idol when it consumes an entire nation. Peter had his prejudice until a message from God told him to drop it and Peter obeyed. In other words he kept the commandments of God, all ten of them.
It seems to me you have a real issue with truth. I'm sorry to have to say it but if I'm going to be honest I must. You deserve to have me be honest with you.

 

[Gary K]

@Gary K my man, when we sin we become a slave to sin, don't we? Is it reasonable to say that we have then made an idol, put something before God?

No, we do not have to be slaves to sin. Go back and read my thread Is sinning necessary. I have used a lot of scripture in that thread, more than anyone should be willing to ignore. Do you really want to think of yourself as a slave to sin?

Matthew 1: 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The text does not say save them in their sins. The word translated as from is the following.

[*StrongsGreek*]
00575
ἀπό apó, apo'
a primary particle;
"off," i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative):--(X here-)after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for(-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-)on(-ce), since, with.
In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.

Is it not an idol to knowingly hang on to something that is demonstrably false.

 

[HIM]