RandyPNW said:

It does *not* say to the vast majority of scholars in history that Jesus coming with the clouds means he is coming *to heaven!* They can't all be liars! Get back with me when you can argue without personal insult or judgmentalism.

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We're talking about Daniel 7:13 here. You are trying to say that a vast majority of scholars say that Daniel 7:13 is about Jesus coming from heaven rather than to heaven? Give me some kind of evidence to back that up. I don't believe that is true at all.

Edit: After doing some checking on many different commentaries and quotes of known scholars, I can see that what you said is definitely not true that a vast majority of scholars would say that "Jesus coming with the clouds" in and of itself, means He is coming from heaven. He came with the clouds of heaven TO heaven at His ascension and will come with the clouds of heaven FROM heaven at His return. THAT is what a vast majority of scholars in history believe. Also, a vast majority of scholars have not believed that Daniel 7:13 is about the second coming of Christ. Many have believed, like me, that it's about His ascension. Probably for the same reason as I do. It obviously refers to Him coming TO heaven in God the Father's presence and not to Him coming FROM heaven.

AV1611VET said:

Earth, you have an OP that's about a foot and a half of text.

You end it with this statement:

For debate: Any arguments theists could give to justify the acceptance of unfalsifiable religious claims about divine creation in the absence of a solution to the universal problems of confirmation bias, induction, and underdetermination.

Do you mind repeating that in words that are easy to understand?

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You basically argue from a flawed logical perspective. You begin with the conclusion, and then you have to make the evidence fit the narrative.

BCP1928 said:

It was a legal opinion based on the evidence presented in the charge, and good advice. Felonious assault generally requires intent to kill or inflict serious bodily injury, which they clearly cannot prove.

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Yeah it could be an overcharge. I dont know what the law is in DC. It wouldn't be a felony in my state. But in DC? I dont know.

AV1611VET said:

I totally agree.

Why indeed?

That's gonna put a lot of people out of work.

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Luckily that's not going to happen any time soon, since there's always something new to discover.

DaisyDay said:

That was the "grimace" emoji, not a laughing one. Maybe pay attention to context.

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Not an expert on emojis. Most look similar to me. If you are making a serious point then the use of emojis detract from the seriousness of your post in my opinion. No need to extend this off topic convo.

ThatRobGuy said:

However, on the flip side...

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If you had a gastric problem then your plumber might suggest a remedy. Which, as it turns out, might work. Do you then say that your plumber has zero credibility as a medical practitioner, but 'however, on the flip side...'

Lost4words said:

You always claim to have the one and only true interpretation of scripture.

What you post is 'Your' own, personal view of what 'you' think scripture is saying.

If anyone says any different you shoot them down...

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Absolutely right. He says no one has all the answers, which is true, but he does it while acting as if he has all the answers. He can't be taken seriously.

The Barbarian said:

It's not the first time a crooked politician tried to overturn our democracy. Hopefully, we'll get these guys like we got them each time before.

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Yeah Tulsi Gabbard and Pam Bondi etc are working on it. I hope they get those involved from tge Obama administration too. And those from the Biden administration.

AV1611VET said:

You made this statement:

It would mean science could ignore that specific aspect of the phenomenon from that point forward since there would be nothing new to learn about it.

(Emphasis mine.)

I'm wondering what academia would do at this point, if there's nothing more to teach or discover?

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It would basically mean the end of that discipline and inquiry or study of it. Why learn something new about a subject if you already know it all?

keras said:

Christian believers are at odds with one another. We all read the Bible and keep the Commandments. Why do we understand the Prophesies so differently?
My approach is to read the prophesies literally, unless they are obviously metaphorical; describing something not known in ancient times, but what is possible to figure out from our modern knowledge.

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So, you don't consider that something could be metaphorical unless it is "obviously metaphorical" and just assume everything is literal otherwise? That doesn't seem like a wise approach. You should at least consider any given verse or passage to possibly be metaphorical even if it isn't "obviously metaphorical", especially if a literal interpretation contradicts other scriptures. I see this all the time with how Premils interpret OT scripture. They will interpret OT scriptures literally in such a way that blatantly contradicts clear, literal NT scriptures. Instead of reconsidering how they are interpreting the OT scriptures because of what is written in the NT, they will instead twist the NT scriptures to fit their literal understanding of the OT scriptures that are not meant to be interpreted literally.

Always in His Presence said:

Selling advanced weaponry to Europe and Ukraine - threatening and enforcing tariffs on nations that do business with Russia all effect what is happening - all are expressions of strength.

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Punishing India with a 50% tariff means Trump is not willing to carry out the promised sanctions if Putin didn't agree to a cease fire.

Always in His Presence said:

Russia is economically failing and taking their ability to create income strangles any aggression.

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Events on the ground demonstrate otherwise.

Always in His Presence said:

It's called peace through power. Better than being a warmonger and putting American boots on the ground.

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Putin sees a president who will not carry through on his threats. There will never be a peace deal so long as Putin can manipulate the POTUS and continue his war with out cosequences.

Spiritual Jew said:

I can't do anything but conclude that you're being dishonest when you try to say that Daniel 7:13 is talking about Jesus coming FROM heaven when it explicitly describes Him as coming TO heaven.

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It does *not* say to the vast majority of scholars in history that Jesus coming with the clouds means he is coming *to heaven!* They can't all be liars! Get back with me when you can argue without personal insult or judgmentalism.

SabbathBlessings said:

You have been told over and over again that SDA's do not believe Jesus is a created being- yet continue to make the accusation for some strange reason.

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That’s not true - I’ve not accused the SDA church of Arianism, nor would I.

I noticed that when I criticized the SDA belief that our Lord is St. Michael, you seemed to think I was making such a charge, but that was not the case. Rather, I asserted the ancient belief that St. Michael is created, as a reason why the SDA should reconsider the doctrine that St. Michael is uncreated and sharing an identity with Christ our True God.

Additionally, I have referred to non-SDA adventists who did not agree with Ellen G. White on the Incarnation and the doctrine of the Trinity, but I have been careful to differentiate between them, and the SDA.

RileyG said:

Ah! That reminds me of something.

Aren't chimps and bonobos separate species because of where they ended up? Chimps tend to be aggressive, where as bonobos tend to be more peaceful.

IIRC, there was a hybrid between a chimp and a bonobo. I have no idea if she is still living or not.

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I had to go and look it up myself, but it is the most likely thing. It does stand to reason that, if two populations of the same animal split off, with one remaining where it is and the other migrating to another location with different environment pressures, then we would see adaptation/evolution take place to make the latter population more fit to their environment. 1 to 2 million years is more than enough time for chimps and bonobos to, while still showing a similar body plan, to evolve different morphological and sociological changes in response to a different environment. Bonobo ancestors moved to a location with more plentiful food, and while still holding the same ecological place in the food chain they had, there was less call for interspecies confrontation, resulting in a much more placid lifestyle and behaviour.

As to their hybridization, between chimps and bonobos, there have been incidents occurring in captivity, with Tiby (which I think is the individual you're thinking of) starring in the 2017 Swedish film The Square. Can't find anything on whether they're still alive or not. And, as should be evident, such a thing could only happen if they shared significant genetic similarities, which between chimps and bonobos is... 99% similarity.

The Barbarian said:

Sure. The definition of assault covers even a threat to batter a person. He was an idiot to waste a perfectly good sandwich on those guys, quite apart from the crime. The blowback over Bondi's jowl-quivering outrage over a tossed sandwich provided a good deal of amusement among rational Americans.
View attachment 368681


I threw the sandwich, but I did not throw the kettle chips.
I threw the sandwich, but I did not throw the kettle chips.

All around in Washington
They're trying to track me down
They say they want to bring me in guilty
For the throwing of a BLT.

But I say..

I threw the sandwich, but I did not throw the kettle chips.
I threw the sandwich, but I did not throw the kettle chips.

View attachment 368682

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Yup, at least he provided a laugh or two while on his way to jail. I certainly hope he thinks it was worth it. Perhaps he should write a book. The Great Sandwhich Caper, The Death of America.

He'd make millions.

RandyPNW said:

I was being facetious--just throwing back at you your same argument, that "you're not serious if you don't agree with me!"

I think we're both being serious, and I think we're both being honest. But I won't carry on a conversation with someone who is falsely judging me, calling me dishonest, etc. Get back with me when you get a little more "friendly."

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I can't do anything but conclude that you're being dishonest when you try to say that Daniel 7:13 is talking about Jesus coming FROM heaven when it explicitly describes Him as coming TO heaven.

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came TO the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

This describes what happened at Christ's ascension when He came from earth to heaven and was set at the right hand of God the Father (referred to as "the Ancient of Days" in Daniel 7:13).

SabbathBlessings said:

The problem with "only" following Paul's teaching is many twist his writings to make them in conflict with Jesus and we are warned in doing this, can be a salvation issue.

2 Peter 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

The other reason is Paul followed Christ

1 Cor 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

So a lot of people who use Paul's writings against what Jesus taught and lived, also use Paul's writings against Paul as many never reconcile his writings to his other writings or more importantly to Jesus.

Paul was commissioned to teach the gospel but he is not a replacement for what Jesus taught and lived. The covenant ratified at His Cross, nothing can be added or changed to His covenant. No one is going to be saved by Paul, we are only saved by the blood of Jesus through faith in Him and of Him- which is how did Jesus live and what He taught, as He is our example to follow 1 Peter 2:21-22 Heb 4:15 1 John 2:6

Jesus is the way, Paul, just like other good apostles and prophets point to Jesus. Anytime, we take away Jesus in any capacity, its not the path that leads us to eternal life.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Rev 14:12 Here is the [a]patience of the saints; here[b] are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

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AND there are some verse , like Rom 3:7 !!

And since Paul is a DISPENSATIONLIST , in Rom 16: 25 and 26. I will always teach the MYSTERY as. Eph 3:2. !!


And another good verse in 1. Tim 1:4. , Nor to give attention to fables and endless genealogies , which cause questions. , rather

than Gods DISPENSATION , THE ONE BY FAITH , which means , that to be in the FAITH ,

YOU HAVE TO BE A DISPENSATIONLIST. ,

And have you seen. what water baptism has done , has divided the Body of Christ and there some other subjects also !!

AND. we all will have too give account at the Judgement Seat of Christ !!

aAnd and other big divider is. where the BODY. of Christ began !!

And and other is. when Israel. was set aside !! ACTS 28:25-28. !!

And I DO. LIKE YOUR REPLY. !!

dan p

Brightfame52 said:

What we as natural men dont comprehend is that by nature we are dead to God, in such a condition we are without any hope in and of ourselves, like these gentiles Eph 2:12

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

This means nothing can possibly done by man to change his plight, he can not do anything spiritually good towards salvation. Without spiritual life its a dead end. By nature we cant even think a spiritual thought 2 Cor 3:5

Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

Jesus even told His disciples in regards to spiritual matters Jn 15:5

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

So what about a person dead in sin ? How can they come to Christ, a spiritual act, by their own freewill in the flesh ? 14

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You just don't get it. How you are interpreting John 15:5 illustrates your lack of discernment about these things. Jesus was not talking about repentance and faith in John 15:5. He was talking about those who belonged to Him and that if they abided/remained in Him then they would bring forth much fruit. So, He was telling them that they could do nothing without Him in relation to bearing fruit, which has to do with doing good works after we're saved and are in Him (belong to Him). He's saying we can't do the good works God has for us to do AFTER we become saved without Him helping us. He was not saying those who are dead in sin, which means they are separated from God, but spiritually sick (Mark 2:16-17), are not able to come to Christ with repentance and faith. You are taking all of these scriptures out of context because of your doctrinal bias. You continually show how you don't know the difference between repentance/faith and good works. Scripture differentiates between them.

JM said:

I had the privilege of preaching last Sunday.

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Congratulations sir!

Warden_of_the_Storm said:

Well, it is the reason why humans can donate blood and organs to someone on the other side of the country or even world to us. You can't do that if we aren't related genetically.

As an interesting counterpoint, chimps and gorillas, though possessing a much smaller population overall and much more localized ones too, are much more genetically diverse in their own populations to other chimps or gorillas.

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Ah! That reminds me of something.

Aren't chimps and bonobos separate species because of where they ended up? Chimps tend to be aggressive, where as bonobos tend to be more peaceful.

IIRC, there was a hybrid between a chimp and a bonobo. I have no idea if she is still living or not.

BlueGreenEarth said:

Addendum: It is necessary for us to demand intellectual honesty from ourselves and others in this way if we care about having meaningful and productive conversations.

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I agree completely. I didn't recall if I had made any posts on the thread, apart from a single very recent one, so I want back through it looking for some. My intent was to check it against your proposed standard and alert you if I had fallen short, so I could alert you and get reported. (I daresay someone may accuse me of virtue signalling. To that person, you need to distinguish between virtue signalling and a combination of irony, tongue in cheek, implicit agreement, rhetorical devices and mischieviousness.)

essentialsaltes said:

"It doesn't matter if they're children. I'm not speaking out of revenge. I'm talking about a message for future generations. From time to time, they need a Nakba to feel the cost," Haliva said.

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A lot is troubling in this. The Jewish people have historically been oppressed and dispersed, and moved from pillar to post across an empire or two. The fact that they have survived such atrocities as Nazi Germany, robust and undeniably a people with a common heritage and faith tradition and a unique sense of humour would leave one thinking they would never want to either have that happen again to them, nor inflict such pain and suffering on any people.

Dead children have no future generations to remember them.

There were some 1200 Israeli lives lost in the October 11 attack, and the estimate is now that 70000 Palestinians have been killed in the fighting since then, which is 10000 more than 50 x 1200.

Perhaps it's time to remember:

Brightfame52 said:

@Spiritual Jew



You wrong, it was Gods will for Pharoah to disobey His command to let His people go. Im not even arguing about that, its so plain in the Ex narrative.

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I wrong? LOL. It wasn't God's will for Pharaoh to be a wicked person with a hardened heart in the first place. There is nothing written to indicate that. It was God's will to use Pharaoh as an example and to show His power through him. God knew Pharaoh would disobey Him because He knew Pharaoh had a hardened heart. Pharaoh had already hardened his own heart before any of that took place.

Brightfame52 said:

Is hating people wrong morally ?

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Yes, of course it is. Jesus taught us to even love our enemies (Matthew 5:44).

Brightfame52 said:

Was it Gods will for the egyptians to hate the israelites here Ps 105:25

He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.

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You are not understanding what this verse means. Why would you interpret this verse in such a way that contradicts Jesus telling us to love our enemies? Do you not care if you interpret one verse in a way that contradicts other verses? What this verse means is that God used the general wickedness and hate that the Egyptian people already had against His people because His plan was to show His people how He could deliver them from even the most dire circumstances. It wasn't as if God had to completely change who the Egyptians were in order for them to treat God's people harshly. It was normal for them to mistreat other people, but God used that for His purposes.

Another example of that would be how God used the Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem and kill many of its people in 70 AD. The Romans were mostly wicked people, but God used them to punish the Jews. God can do things like that if He wants, but that has nothing to do with whether or not people have free will to choose whether to repent and believe the gospel.

Ophiolite said:

It's slightly more complex than you've presented, but it's probably best to let it run on the questions as asked, unless it goes seriously off piste.

I think you were implying, correctly that human life came out of Africa. And yes, very definitely, of course we are all related, which makes things like racism not just dangerous and bad, but outrageously stupid. Since I accept evolutionary theory I know I am related to every living thing on the planet. I find it pleasing to reflect on how far back I have to go to find a common ancestor with my cat, or with the sheep grazing behind my house, the magpies circling overhead, or the nettles I can never quite get rid of.

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That's quite fascinating to think about, to say the least!