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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Three ICE detainees shot, 2 dead, at ICE facility in Dallas; suspected shooter committed suicide.

FBI investigating shooting as "act of targeted violence"

The deadly shooting at an ICE facility near downtown Dallas is believed to be a targeted incident, according to the head of the FBI field office in Dallas.

“I can confirm at this time that the FBI is investigating this incident as an act of targeted violence,” said Special Agent in Charge Joe Rothrock.

“Early evidence that we’ve seen from rounds that were found near the suspected shooter contain messages that are anti-ICE in nature,” Rothrock added.
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Gibbons Decline & Fall & Christianity

These unhappy exiles from social life were impelled by the dark and implacable genius of superstition. Their mutual resolution was supported by the example of millions, of either sex, of every age, and of every rank; and each proselyte who entered the gates of a monastery, was persuaded that he trod the steep and thorny path of eternal happiness. But the operation of these religious motives was variously determined by the temper and situation of mankind. Reason might subdue, or passion might suspend, their influence: but they acted most forcibly on the infirm minds of children and females; they were strengthened by secret remorse, or accidental misfortune; and they might derive some aid from the temporal considerations of vanity or interest. It was naturally supposed, that the pious and humble monks, who had renounced the world to accomplish the work of their salvation, were the best qualified for the spiritual government of the Christians. The reluctant hermit was torn from his cell, and seated, amidst the acclamations of the people, on the episcopal throne: the monasteries of Egypt, of Gaul, and of the East, supplied a regular succession of saints and bishops; and ambition soon discovered the secret road which led to the possession of wealth and honors. The popular monks, whose reputation was connected with the fame and success of the order, assiduously labored to multiply the number of their fellow-captives. They insinuated themselves into noble and opulent families; and the specious arts of flattery and seduction were employed to secure those proselytes who might bestow wealth or dignity on the monastic profession. The indignant father bewailed the loss, perhaps, of an only son; the credulous maid was betrayed by vanity to violate the laws of nature; and the matron aspired to imaginary perfection, by renouncing the virtues of domestic life. Paula yielded to the persuasive eloquence of Jerome; and the profane title of mother-in-law of God tempted that illustrious widow to consecrate the virginity of her daughter Eustochium. By the advice, and in the company, of her spiritual guide, Paula abandoned Rome and her infant son; retired to the holy village of Bethlem; founded a hospital and four monasteries; and acquired, by her alms and penance, an eminent and conspicuous station in the Catholic church. Such rare and illustrious penitents were celebrated as the glory and example of their age; but the monasteries were filled by a crowd of obscure and abject plebeians, who gained in the cloister much more than they had sacrificed in the world. Peasants, slaves, and mechanics, might escape from poverty and contempt to a safe and honorable profession; whose apparent hardships are mitigated by custom, by popular applause, and by the secret relaxation of discipline. The subjects of Rome, whose persons and fortunes were made responsible for unequal and exorbitant tributes, retired from the oppression of the Imperial government; and the pusillanimous youth preferred the penance of a monastic, to the dangers of a military, life. The affrighted provincials of every rank, who fled before the Barbarians, found shelter and subsistence: whole legions were buried in these religious sanctuaries; and the same cause, which relieved the distress of individuals, impaired the strength and fortitude of the empire.

The monastic profession of the ancients was an act of voluntary devotion. The inconstant fanatic was threatened with the eternal vengeance of the God whom he deserted; but the doors of the monastery were still open for repentance. Those monks, whose conscience was fortified by reason or passion, were at liberty to resume the character of men and citizens; and even the spouses of Christ might accept the legal embraces of an earthly lover. The examples of scandal, and the progress of superstition, suggested the propriety of more forcible restraints. After a sufficient trial, the fidelity of the novice was secured by a solemn and perpetual vow; and his irrevocable engagement was ratified by the laws of the church and state. A guilty fugitive was pursued, arrested, and restored to his perpetual prison; and the interposition of the magistrate oppressed the freedom and the merit, which had alleviated, in some degree, the abject slavery of the monastic discipline. The actions of a monk, his words, and even his thoughts, were determined by an inflexible rule, or a capricious superior: the slightest offences were corrected by disgrace or confinement, extraordinary fasts, or bloody flagellation; and disobedience, murmur, or delay, were ranked in the catalogue of the most heinous sins. A blind submission to the commands of the abbot, however absurd, or even criminal, they might seem, was the ruling principle, the first virtue of the Egyptian monks; and their patience was frequently exercised by the most extravagant trials. They were directed to remove an enormous rock; assiduously to water a barren staff, that was planted in the ground, till, at the end of three years, it should vegetate and blossom like a tree; to walk into a fiery furnace; or to cast their infant into a deep pond: and several saints, or madmen, have been immortalized in monastic story, by their thoughtless and fearless obedience. The freedom of the mind, the source of every generous and rational sentiment, was destroyed by the habits of credulity and submission; and the monk, contracting the vices of a slave, devoutly followed the faith and passions of his ecclesiastical tyrant. The peace of the Eastern church was invaded by a swarm of fanatics, incapable of fear, or reason, or humanity; and the Imperial troops acknowledged, without shame, that they were much less apprehensive of an encounter with the fiercest Barbarians.

(The History of the decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Vol. 4, Chap. 37, pgs. 9 - 13 of the Everyman's Library edition)

Just like ancient Israel, once Christianity apostatized, it fell into depths deeper than the pagans around or before them.
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Kamala Harris says picking a gay man for VP was too big of a risk

Fun fact: It is speculated James Buchanan might have been gay. But it has never been proven. There's also rumors about Lincoln's sexual orientation. It really hasn't become a political issue, regarding sexuality, until the late 20th century, eh?
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The "Church Fathers" Scriptural or Not

I don't think either Orthodox or Catholics teach that any individual Church Father's writing is on par with Scripture, it is the consensus patronum as a whole that is of central importance. And even that is as a means of clarifying Scripture rather than being its equivolent.
Exactly. But there is always a but.

However, defining the 2 Nature's of Christ and the incarnation (something most everyone who calls themselves Christian believe) is certainly extra-biblical. The Church Fathers are critical for this.

Also, the Church Fathers can be used as proofs that the Immaculate Conception or the Perpetual Virginity of Mary are not some recent innovations (as some claim) and were beliefs held since the beginning of His Church.
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Kamala Harris says picking a gay man for VP was too big of a risk

Why should someone's sexuality matter? Really?
It shouldn’t. If someone can do the job their sexual orientation is irrelevant. Kamala’s statement is blatant hypocrisy
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Former Pink Floyd member Roger Waters faces possible prosecution after supporting banned Palestine Action

Your own sources say some of it IS true so ALL the claims made are NOT false or misleading...
Which claims on the list are true according to the sources I provided? And even if one or two of the things on that list were found to be true, why wouldn't you delete the post anyway since it does in fact contain false and misleading information?
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The "Church Fathers" Scriptural or Not

CHAP. XIV.—THE PRAYER OF POLYCARP.

They did not nail him then, but simply bound him. And he, placing his hands behind him, and being bound like a distinguished ram [taken] out of a great flock for sacrifice, and prepared to be an acceptable burnt-offering unto God, looked up to heaven, and said, “O Lord God Almighty, the Father of thy beloved and blessed Son Jesus Christ, by whom we have received the knowledge of Thee, the God of angels and powers, and of every creature, and of the whole race of the righteous who live before thee, I give Thee thanks that Thou hast counted me worthy of this day and this hour, that I should have a part in the number of Thy martyrs, in the cup of thy Christ, to the resurrection of eternal life, both of soul and body, through the incorruption [imparted] by the Holy Ghost. Among whom may I be accepted this day before Thee as a fat and acceptable sacrifice, according as Thou, the ever-truthful God, hast fore-ordained, hast revealed beforehand to me, and now hast fulfilled. Wherefore also I praise Thee for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Ghost, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen.”6

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., “The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna,” in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 42.

Uh Oh!

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 21 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 23 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Only one man died the only sacrificial death which was, is, and only will be acceptable to God unto the salvation of humanity. Nor does God require sacrifices from the lost unto salvation as all the pagan gods did and do, but rather God Himself supplied His and our sacrifice unto salvation. The individual and spiritual sacrifice of the New Covenant era is described by Paul, and it is distinctly not a literal one.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

It was the devil and his minions of the flesh, who martyred, and burned alive one who would not submit to them. God has called for no such thing, but rather the sacrifice of self by self, in willful submission to the Father through Christ Jesus the Son. Martyrs are witnesses to the steadfastness and surety of the promises of God. Certainly not any kind of acceptable sacrifice by the wicked unto God, or any kind of blasphemy intended by the martyred, as though they were in any way shape or form the one acceptable sacrifice for sin unto God. Nevertheless, only the Spirit of God can inspire and empower the believer unto authentic martyrdom. Making those responsible for persecuting God’s very own, guilty of persecuting our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ again as well.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
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Kamala Harris says picking a gay man for VP was too big of a risk


MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow confronts Kamala Harris over sidelining Pete Buttigieg ‘because he was gay’​

Buttigieg “would have been an ideal partner — if I were a straight white man,” but he was “too big of a risk,” Harris continued.
Why should someone's sexuality matter? Really?
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DOJ Quietly Deletes Study After Charlie Kirk's Death That Says Right-Wing Extremists Engage in 'Far More' Political Violence

Uh... Yes. Unless you have never gone through a traumatic experience in your life you must have some understanding of how devastating it would be. I do not claim I understand every nuance but that is not what empathy is.

I won't even pretend to understand what Erika Kirk is feeling.
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When 70% of churchgoers don't open their Bibles daily

Baptists as well. You're expected to follow along with the preacher as he reads the scripture. There was once something called responsive reading, with scripture numbered like hymns and placed in the back of the hymnal. The number was called for people to turn to it, and then the minister read a portion and then the congregation a portion noted in bold print in the hymnal.

That said, some passages are read more than others. It's not exhaustive. I don't think I've ever heard the list of donations for the tabernacle read aloud in a church service.
Thanks for the info :)
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Thoughts on Mari Emanuel and Ancient Church of East

He's a schismatic of schismatic schismatics.

The Assyrian Church of the East, from my understanding, is the continuation of that same Local Church which schismed away following the Council of Ephesus which rebuked Nestorianism. The then-Church of the East I believe was based in modern day Iraq and Iran. That said, the political realities at the time can not be ignored: the Sassanian Empire, which was the last pre-Islamic Persian empire, didn't quite get along with the Byzantines and so it is highly likely that the Sassanian Emperor at the time may have used Nestorianism as an excuse to distance his people from the Byzantines. At one point the Church of the East reached covered the modern day -stan countries and parts of China until Tamerlane killed everyone in his path.


The Ancient Church of the East went into schism from the Assyrian Church of the East sometime in the 1960s over the decision to switch to the Gregorian Calendar (yes, Gregorian and not our Revised Julian) from the Old Julian Calendar.

Mari Emanuel was a part of this entity but went into schism himself forming his own "Church." This happened after the Ancient Church's patriarch suspended him for a variety of things that ultimately amounts to clerical disobedience. He's also been accused of sexually assaulting a woman right before his suspension, though I'm not sure if that's officially related to the suspension.


So far as I know, no Eastern Orthodox jurisdiction has made formal position on Mari Emmanuel and I don't suspect they would because he's a schismatic from a schismatic church that itself is schismatic of a heretical church. His "Church" consists of a one-parish operation and quite frankly I see little different between his cult of personality and that of any Evangelical personality-driven entity like Joel Osteen or whomever. I would not be surprised of the Australian-based Eastern Orthodox bishops have had to issue some local guidance to their clergy and congregations.

Personally, I wish that the Assyrian and Ancient Churches would reunite for the good of their own dwindling Assyrian communities then for the Chaldean Catholic Church to leave Rome for the Assyrian Church for the same reason (that and being part of Rome just doesn't bring any advantages these days). I'd love for the Assyrians to come to Eastern Orthodoxy and be able to preserve their own liturgical rites and so forth, but that is far above my paygrade.
Yikes! I wasn't aware he was accused of that.
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Shooting kills 3 transgender women outside Karachi, Pakistan

She would be considered a “cafeteria” Muslim, just like some Catholics are considered “cafeteria Catholics”. They pick and choose the bits of the religion they like and ignore the bits they don’t like.
Yes. That is very true.
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Shooting kills 3 transgender women outside Karachi, Pakistan

Modern Chinese attitudes about homosexuality are influenced alot by missionaries, global cultural trends, and modern state ideology. Ancient China had varied attitudes. Some Confucian scholars saw certain forms of same sex relationships negatively, but not necessarily in the way Christians did.

There actually was a folk religious cult in premodern China devoted to a deified gay man, who became known as Tu Er Shen or the Rabbit God ("rabbit" in Chinese slang refers to a gay men, since rabbits are difficult to sex, suggesting the idea of gender fluidity, which fits a common understanding of homosexual and transgender behaviors in non-western cultures). There's even a temple dedicated to him in modern Taiwan. Some Confucian scholars viewed the cult negatively, but the cult's origins are in folk religion heavily shaped by Taoism and shamanism.



Yes, that's mostly a legacy of modernity. But you can still find echoes of the past, such as the concept of bishonen (beautiful boys) in anime and manga, which is influenced by Chinese aesthetics and philosophy, and the legacy of Japanese homoeroticism. Something similar wasn't unheard of in Europe, either. Many of Shakespeare's sonnets were written with a young male as the subject, not a woman. It was quietly glossed over by the Victorians, and Americans largely inherit that reading today. But it's relatively uncontroversial among serious scholars of Shakespeare.

The Japanese courts have also recently ruled that the refusal to recognize same-sex marriage is unconstitutional. However, the legal process is still ongoing. Large Japanese cities have gay neighborhoods, like Ni-Chome in Tokyo, that are well known to many people in Japan. Japanese religion also tends to be widely tolerant of gay people, though much of Japanese religious organizations are small and family-run affairs, and don't necessarily have national influence. The issue is that talking about anything perceived as different in Japan is culturally difficult, not because it's perceived as sinful, but because it's seen as embarrassing to emphasize ones own differences from the group.



I met a gay man once from Morocco and he dressed in traditional women's clothes of that country, which is a traditional gender identity in Morocco. However, modern North Africa isn't necessarily safe for gay people, for alot of reasons. Male rape is used by gangs sometimes as a way to establish dominance or humiliate people, often gay men are targeted (maybe this is what the actual sin of Sodom was about?).
Thanks for the response. I wasn't aware of much of that.

Peace
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Kimmel is Back

To me you're speaking about the difference between the carnal and the spiritual mind. Because for me, the sentiment expressed in the words 'carnal vanity' implies the futility of comparing oneself with others and feeling either lifted up or put down in the process of a carnal based form of evaluation. The reasoning of the carnal mind is bound to end in hypocrisy because it judges as if goodness is manifested through the carnal effort to not be bad.

It's therefore easy to introduce the false premise, often present in propaganda, that either the right or the left must be responsible for Charlie kirks murder, only because people don't understand that the left/right dichotomy represents two opposing SUBJECTIVE views that are equally valid. That is to say that the LEFT/RIGHT dichotomy denotes an OBJECTIVE view existing at the center where there is agreement, fairness, and justice. OBJECTIVELY, a person on the right can lean left and still be to the right of center and a person can lean right and still be to the left of center.
So the place to be is on the fence, never taking a strong position because it might offend others.
I don't buy it
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The "Church Fathers" Scriptural or Not

CHAP. XIII.—THE FUNERAL PILE IS ERECTED.

This, then, was carried into effect with greater speed than it was spoken, the multitudes immediately gathering together wood and fagots out of the shops and baths; the Jews especially, according to custom, eagerly assisting them in it. And when the funeral pile was ready, Polycarp, laying aside all his garments, and loosing his girdle, sought also to take off his sandals,—a thing he was not accustomed to do, inasmuch as every one of the faithful was always eager who should first touch his skin. For, on account of his holy life, he was, even before his martyrdom, adorned with every kind of good. Immediately then they surrounded him with those substances which had been prepared for the funeral pile. But when they were about also to fix him with nails, he said, “Leave me as I am; for He that giveth me strength to endure the fire, will also enable me; without your securing me by nails, to remain without moving in the pile.”

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., “The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna,” in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 42.

Sounds like certain people were getting a little out of focus concerning their faith. Beginning to exalt certain individuals and their flesh apparently, above Him alone who can make anyone or thing holy.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

There is nothing in the flesh or of fallen humanity that is holy. Save the Holy Spirit of God which may dwell within by faith. Which Spirit cannot be imparted or attained by or through the flesh.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
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How should we think about the death penalty?

Yet there are a few who are real and present dangers even in prison, who are a danger to other prisoners and can even direct mayhem outside of prisons from their cells. This is why an absolute prohibition of the death sentence is wrong. It should be rare but not totally forbidden.
That makes sense. One example I can think of on top of my head is Ted Bunny. Since he escaped, and if he wasn't executed, he would have continued to kill women.
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