Always in His Presence said:

The American people are a welcoming and generous people. But those who enter our country illegally, and those who employ them, disrespect the rule of law.

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Ever since the pardon of January 6th rioters and other friends, an appeal to the "rule of Law" cannot be taken seriously.

Never the less, borders must be more secure. Offenders must be treated humanely and with due process according to "rule of law."

BCP1928 said:

Yes, but they aren't using your definition of "woman."

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Now you're getting into the silly territory of "quus" arguments and the like.

BCP1928 said:

Well, we won't agree on any of that--I studied metaphysics under RC tuteledge. I will say that I am disappointed in the absolute rejection of nominalism by many theologians, even to the extent of making up fibs about it. I once had a lengthy argument with a Christian, quite articulate and learned in Calvinist theology, in this forum to the effect that if God's will is not bound by two-value propositional logic then the existence of the Holy Trinity is impossible. Ridiculous.

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I'm not sure I see the connection between the two, though nominalism is inherently a threat to Christianity because it denies the reality of things like "natures" which are essential to the atonement having any impact for anyone besides Jesus and reduces the gospel to a matter of moral teachings. Nominalism denies the reality of corporate association and mystical participation in Christ. And it inevitably leads to the destruction of objective meaning and truth becuse taxonomies become artificial constructs rather than reflecting reality proper in any true sense.

ozso said:

That's 57 out of 1,100,000 international students or 0.00518181818%.

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Here are more and probably some others that are not reported. International Students Status Revoked Over 950: What You Need to Know
I think the bigger problem is with the new wannabe students. Some are just giving up on visas altogether. Every time a visa holder arrives in the USA, even if they have a green card, there may be issues getting in. Here is the rise in the rejection of fiance visa applicants.

"New Boundless Report: Fiancé Visa Approvals Decrease By 66% Under Trump: New Boundless Report: Fiancé Visa Approvals Decrease By 66% Under Trump​

So Trump marries two foreigners, and now he is cutting many other US citizens out from giving their fiance's a visa that will allow them to marry and ultimately live in the states. It's only a 90 day visa to begin with. Marry and you get to stay and pay again for a green card. Or marry abroad and wait over a year. Such time frames make family planning pretty difficult.

Fervent said:

Oh? So then they don't claim that "transwomen are women"?

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Yes, but they aren't using your definition of "woman."

Fervent said:

That, in and of itself, is a metaphysical belief(as well as an assertion of epistemic possibilities). Not all metaphysics is fanciful speculation, in fact most metaphysics now is about stripping away a priori commitments and developing as minimal of a metaphysical position as possible in order to not impose restrictions on where evidence can lead. The aversion to metaphysical discussion has simply allowed for a particular metaphysical viewpoint to be enshrined in a privileged position without justification or critical assessment, and statements such as those by William Buckley are nothing more than attempts to poison the well to maintain that privilege and escape defending the privileged metaphysical commitments prevalent among academics.

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Well, we won't agree on any of that--I studied metaphysics under RC tuteledge. I will say that I am disappointed in the absolute rejection of nominalism by many theologians, even to the extent of making up fibs about it. I once had a lengthy argument with a Christian, quite articulate and learned in Calvinist theology, in this forum to the effect that if God's will is not bound by two-value propositional logic then the existence of the Holy Trinity is impossible. Ridiculous.

BCP1928 said:

Of course, and those things are routinely considered by any municipality when a population increase is considered.

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This is also why all people and not just citizens are counted in the census, despite the GOP.

Aseyesee said:

The first week sets the pattern ... in "innumerable" (I think that's a good word for it, or perhaps, as the voice of many waters) ... ways ... one merely need peek inside and they would be caught up to meet him, beyond the place of measurement ... and this as often as they wished ...

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to go beyond the veil is to come out from between them ... or i like the way you put it ... how did it go .. to get somewhere you need two points of reference but to get there you must leave the two ... i look at and go inside churches just to see the pattern its so all around us its crazy most don't see it even in ancient Hebrew two crossed sticks mark the spot when turned to the side ... yes its good to know we are not alone in seeing the immeasurable mystery in His salvation realizing the Kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hid in the field ...

Jeff Saunders said:

You have your opinion and I have mine. I would say the same thing to you, are those you listen to being true to what God intended or are they just upholding the tradition they ascribe to? I am glad that the disciples did not go by that logic, because the Pharisees has all kinds of reasons for Jesus not being the Messiah, and they were doing the same thing that is being done today, they are the authority and they have many more numbers than those who believed that Jesus was the Messiah. Fortunately the disciples did not give in, they knew the truth.

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The difference is my opinion is based on my own studies on the languages and what is involved in language studies, while yours is apparently based on nothing more than agreement with an extreme minority of scholars. You admit you don't have the background to make an evaluation of the scholastic arguments, so your opinion is simply an uneducated one and you have no basis for it. So spare the martyr talk until you have something worthwhile to base your opinion on.

BCP1928 said:

You are still imputing an ontological claim to trans people which they are not making.

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Oh? So then they don't claim that "transwomen are women"?

BCP1928 said:

I like William Buckley's definition of metaphysics best: "Tedious discourses on the inherently unknowable."

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That, in and of itself, is a metaphysical belief(as well as an assertion of epistemic possibilities). Not all metaphysics is fanciful speculation, in fact most metaphysics now is about stripping away a priori commitments and developing as minimal of a metaphysical position as possible in order to not impose restrictions on where evidence can lead. The aversion to metaphysical discussion has simply allowed for a particular metaphysical viewpoint to be enshrined in a privileged position without justification or critical assessment, and statements such as those by William Buckley are nothing more than attempts to poison the well to maintain that privilege and escape defending the privileged metaphysical commitments prevalent among academics.

Always in His Presence said:

I fully support the teachings of Christ and Holy Scripture.

Which includes:

Obeying those in authority. IOW don’t support criminal Actions. The one germane to this thread would be the criminal act of coming into the country illegally.

It took seven months in an internment camp for my parents to enter this country legally and it is a slap in the face to embrace people who break the law.

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Yet you are in favor of deporting people who did come into the country legally and have committed no other crime while here.

Super Bowl

Jan001 said:

Jesus' command in Matthew 28:18-19 must be obeyed.

Yes, at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow. Yes, it is Jesus' sacrifice that saved us.

However, our salvation was brought to us by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit working together, not by Jesus only. This is why we must be baptized as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-19 in order to be saved and have Adam's sin and our own sins forgiven.

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You are correct, Jesus' command in Matthew 28 must be obeyed. And Jesus is obeyed when people administer water baptism in the name of Jesus. Yet, again, scripture reveals IN JESUS dwells all the fulness of the Godhead. The Apostle Paul expressed that people were to be baptized in the name of the one crucified for them. (1 Corinthians 1:13)


Please let the following scripture sink in:
"For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Buried with him (Jesus) in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him (Jesus) through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." Col. 2:9-12

Hi,
Some people had prayers, thanks.

I would like to ask people how they are capable of having empathy?

I am able to have empathy for myself because I believed I have suffered a lot in life, but I can also see that many other people have suffering in life as well. I am trying to develop more empathy for these people.

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

To return to my original point, whether it was four thousand years ago, two thousand years ago, or today, the nation of Israel and the Jewish people are regarded as God’s chosen people. Although they have disobeyed God on numerous occasions and faced consequences over the millennia, the Bible consistently affirms that the Jewish people and Israel are chosen by God. According to scripture, they will be protected, preserved, and ultimately offered the salvation that God extends to all.

Do you agree or disagree with these biblical principles?

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As I said, any further discussion of the theological aspects of dispensationalism would be off-topic for this forum.

No General Apologetics Topics

Apologetics is a branch of theology that concerns itself with defending or proving the truths of the Christian faith and doctrines. Discussion and debate on subjects related to general apologetics are not allowed in the Discussion and Debate category forums. Christians who would like to discuss apologetics may do so in the Christian Apologetics forum.

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Always in His Presence said:

I fully support the teachings of Christ and Holy Scripture.

Which includes:

Obeying those in authority. IOW don’t support criminal Actions. The one germane to this thread would be the criminal act of coming into the country illegally.

It took seven months in an internment camp for my parents to enter this country legally and it is a slap in the face to embrace people who break the law.

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You seem to have missed the stuff about caring for the foreigner in your midst and remembering that you were once foreigners and slaves. Putting laws above the humanitarian issues smacks of pharisaical obstinance, especially when those laws involve human designated borders. Rule of law and order are important, but not more important than human dignity and an obligation to care for the needy.

Aseyesee said:

The first week sets the pattern ... in "innumerable" (I think that's a good word for it, or perhaps, as the voice of many waters) ... ways ... one merely need peek inside and they would be caught up to meet him, beyond the place of measurement ... and this as often as they wished ...

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I would suggest you'd better be careful about what you hear and listen to. This is a serious mistake many are making, especially in these last days of which the Bible highlights the intensity of demonic messages. 1 Timothy 4:1; Revelation 12:9-12; Revelation 16:13, 14

ozso said:

According to the info I read, Therians in general don't have an appearance that distinguishes them as such.

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JUst like the "aliens who walk amongst us". <Laugh>

Fervent said:

Unless you have the language background to distinguish between actual linguistic arguments and fluffery relying on "experts" in the manner you are is nothing but cherry picking as there are "scholars" to support almost any aberant position, and the ones that you are paying attention to are far outside of the academic consensus.

Aion and aionios, while related, are not the same word. One is a noun, the other an adjective. So how it is translated is irrelevant. As for "kosmos", "world" is an entirely appropriate translation but it isn't necessarily exhaustive and can be used in a variety of manners that are not all-inclusive. Your lack of background in languages discredits any opinion you have on the matter because it is clear your preferences are driven by a theological bent not actual linguistic interest otherwise you wouldn't be placing the opinions of a handful of scholars over the overwhelming consensus of Greek scholars on the matter.

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You have your opinion and I have mine. I would say the same thing to you, are those you listen to being true to what God intended or are they just upholding the tradition they ascribe to? I am glad that the disciples did not go by that logic, because the Pharisees has all kinds of reasons for Jesus not being the Messiah, and they were doing the same thing that is being done today, they are the authority and they have many more numbers than those who believed that Jesus was the Messiah. Fortunately the disciples did not give in, they knew the truth.

Jerry N. said:

I once knew a man who said he saw angels on a regular basis. He said that they were shadowy figures standing in the distance. In one instance, a man was charging toward him to do him harm, and one of the shadows moved between him and the aggressive man. The aggressive man turned away. Personally, I was climbing a small mountain and got stuck. I couldn’t go up or down. Suddenly a man appeared, seemingly out of nowhere, and started telling me where to place my feet until I got to a safe place. I stood there and tried to relax. When I turned to thank him, he was nowhere to be seen.

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I, on a number of occasions spoke to individuals who have their physical needs fulfilled on a daily basis, because the angels they summon, and interact with provide them with the means to acquire money.
For some others, it's fame. For different ones, it's different things.

It's one thing to believe that Satan and his angels are so lame, that they don't know how to deceive individual, so that they have them believing things that are not scriptural, so that at the end of the day, Jesus tells them, "Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness".
It's another, to be in tune with, or understand Satan's schemes.


When a person sticks to the scriptures, and put his ideas, in the background, he will not be outsmarted by Satan.
Who would not want to cast out demons, and perform powerful work?
Would you not like that, and is it not true that if you were given that ability, you would use the same logic as you did in your examples... "Ah, it must be God, because Satan would not do this for me."?

Wouldn't he?
Why then would Jesus in his right mind refer to these as lawless works? Matthew 7:21-23
The answer is given in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

That's profound isn't it.
The very works that Jesus used, Satan - the one who masquerades as an angel of light employs.
In order to do what? Mislead, or deceive those who refuse to believe the truth, that would protect them from Satan's lies.
What is that truth, in this case?
I don't need to repeat it, since I already said it.

Did you notice though, that Paul says, God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie?
How much more plainer do we want it said.
A delusion is a fixed belief that is not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence.

There's nothing more I can say.
No amount of scriptures will convince someone who tells themselves that God bypasses and dismisses his means of communication, to deal with individuals as some kind of specialty, exclusive of billions of sincere ones, despite their not having one single scripture to support their subjective opinion, while on the other hand having several scripture that deny that opinion.

Aseyesee said:

"Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? "
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels ..."

"For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee. Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me." (Curious that Paul would need an angel to tell him what the holy spirit in him could have easily revealed) ...

The phrase son of man is found a hundred and ninety seven times in scripture, ninety three alone of these God reverenced as being Ezekiel ... but who were these angels that Nathaniel was promised he would see ...

"But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins ..."
"But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men."
"Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God ..." (the son of man is the son of God ... "Adam the son of God")

I'm curious to know what that scripture means to you firstly ....

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I'm not certain what scripture you want address, since you used several, but I want to address all.
I hope I do answer your question. If not, please be more specific.

Your first text mentions "heirs of salvation".
Heirs of salvation. Heirs of salvation. Heirs of salvation.
I just wanted to emphasize that the heirs of salvation are specified.
So the ministering spirits are sent forth to minister for them.
The Bible refers to these heirs at Daniel 7:27; Romans 8:16, 17, and other texts.

People mistakenly assume that they are these heirs, because they believe in Christ.
However, the scriptures make a distinction between the heirs, and those who would gain salvation. Romans 8:19-23; Galatian 4:29-31

This is not the thread to get into that, but think of the fact that the disciple understood that those heirs would sit on thrones in the kingdom of God, as is seen from James and John, wanting to be seated at the right and left of Jesus. Mark 10:37; Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 14:1-4
Paul is addressing those ones. Not us.
These are the ones Jesus promised holy spirit to guide and lead them by, and it is these alone whom Jesus used angels to minster.
John was the last of these.

Paul did not outlive John. The last visit of an angel to give a message and revelation, was to John.
People coming after can claim anything, but their claims are not substantiated by the breath of their mouth.

When Jesus said to Nathanael, you will see angels of God ascending and descending to the Son of Man, he referred to himself as the son of man, on this occasions, as he customarily did some 80+ times in the Gospels.
Angels did descend to him, and ascend, and one of those occasions was recorded by the historian Luke, who gathered his information from an eyewitness of those occasions. Luke 22:43

Jesus wasn't stating something that would become a rule.
He was letting these men know that they would see things of a heavenly nature, more than his ability to see a past event... like Nathanael sitting under a fig tree.
Again, this occurred while Jesus was on earth, and before he actually sent the Revelation to John, to give to the congregations.


What the scripture says is...
Jesus said to the man, "thy sins be forgiven thee", that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, and the multitudes saw it, and they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men (Jesus was man (Matthew 4:3, 4; Matthew 17:8; 1 Timothy 2:5; Romans 5:15) - the son of man... (Matthew 8:20; Matthew 12:8; Matthew 12:40; Matthew 16:13; Matthew 16:27, 28; Matthew 17:9; Matthew 17:22; Matthew 18:11) born to man Galatians 4:4).

The scripture does not say anything more. It says only what it means, and means only what it says.
Do you see something else other than what it says?

Fervent said:

One is about reproductive strategies and physical apparatuses, the other(gender theory) involves making an appeal to "social constructs"...but it remains the case that there are two sexes in human beings and that what we're born as is what we remain.

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You are still imputing an ontological claim to trans people which they are not making.

Fervent said:

Not in and of itself, though it deals with objective truth.

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I like William Buckley's definition of metaphysics best: "Tedious discourses on the inherently unknowable."

ozso said:

How many news stories should I post, so they can be denied, glossed over, sugarcoated, whitewashed?

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ozso said:

I already addressed that. How many times to we need to go though the repeat repeat repeat game?

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How many videos? How many times? I don't know, but it probably won't get any better before you support your claims with something more substantive than your imagination.

They went after the guy while he was out with his kids bearing ill will towards him and by extension his family. If there hadn't been a large security and police force holding them back, who knows how far they would've gone.

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On one hand, that's true of every VIP.

On the other hand, lol, whine much?

Have you been to a Disney park in the last, oh... ever? Who's staging an impromptu protest inside a park that charges $160+/person/day? Nobody, that's who. The protestors in your video were all outside the park. The news anchor said they were also outside the Grand Californian hotel.

I haven't been to Disneyland in 40 years, but I have been to Disneyworld a few times recently and from what I can gather from Google streetview, DL seems to be pretty similar in that, when you're staying at a Disney hotel, it is very, very easy to avoid the parking lot altogether unless you're actually getting in and out of your car, since there's a monorail stop inside the hotel. That's even true for rubes like you and me, much less somebody with a security detail like VPOTUS.

Nobody has shown that his family was harassed at all.

Jan001 said:

You do not understand the idioms used by people in the first century AD.

It seems that you believe that the apostles blatantly disobeyed Jesus' commandment in Matthew 28:18-20 and instead made up their own new formula for baptism, using only Jesus' own human name.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.

Belief in Jesus Christ requires obedience to his commandments.

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The apostles did not disobey Jesus. The apostles were not instructed to repeat Jesus' command, but rather to obey His command; thus, they administered water baptism in His name. They knew Jesus was the Father in creation, the son in redemption, and the Holy Ghost in regeneration. Again, the word says IN JESUS dwells all the fulness of the Godhead. (Father, Son and Holy Ghost)

BNR32FAN said:

So passages like Matthew 3:12, Matthew 10:28, and John 15:6 are referring to a refining punishment? They all sound destructive to me.

“His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10‬:‭28‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Chaff isn’t refined in fire it’s destroyed. And the same with branches, they aren’t refined in fire they’re also destroyed.

Matthew7:13 broad is the path to destruction.

Romans 9:22 God endured with much patience the vessels of wrath that are fitted to destruction.

Philippians 3:18-19 the enemies of the cross whose end is destruction.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 destruction will come upon those who are in darkness when Christ returns and they shall not escape.

I’m not seeing the result of unbelief being refinement but destruction. I see passages like 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 referring to believers undergoing refinement but not unbelievers. For unbelievers who die without repentance I see death and destruction, not refinement.

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I will answer with this; Jude 1:7 "just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are an exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire"
Ezekiel 16:53-54 " Your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters , will return to their former state, and you with your daughters will also return to your former state"
Sodom was said to be burned with eternal fire but they are restored, this is what God does, he restores.
Apokatastasis from Acts 3:21 In Jesus Christ is the restoration of all things.
Just because to us it looks like being burned with eternal fire is the end, not so with God.

ThatRobGuy said:

I'm speaking specifically about the "grab your signs and hit the streets" protesting. That's almost always only done when there's a perceived connection between one of the belligerents and a "Western power" in order to conform to a broader narrative.


I can enumerate several instances where people didn't seem to care about a particular foreign conflict, but it was only when a "western power" became involved when people wanted to hit the streets with their peace signs and seemingly take whatever side was opposite of the western power.


Iraq spent 3 decades going to battle with various neighbors
Iran did the same

Not much chatter on the streets, it wasn't until there was an opportunity (like Operation Dessert Storm) that people wanted to hit the streets and advocate for "peace in the middle east"


Vietnam was similar...

I don't recall seeing many protests or calls for peace when they were being occupied by (or in conflict with) Japan or Cambodia 10 years prior, but the moment the US got involved, suddenly a bunch of N. Vietnamese sympathizers in the US came out of the woodwork.


Kosovo and Libya followed that pattern as well.



A few sociologists and poli-sci authors have written about it.

Neta Crawford wrote how Western anti-imperialist and leftist movements often respond not to the crisis itself, but to the symbolism of U.S. or NATO involvement.

Jean Bricmont has written about how parts of the left reflexively oppose interventions not based on the actual nature of local crisis but because they see it as an opportunity to critique imperialism. He discusses how conflicts get ignored until the West intervenes — then become flashpoints for protest.

Christian Caryl has written several pieces about this phenomenon, specifically with regards to the Syrian conflict.



Hence the theme of my thread, does the "Reign in the influence of Israel" movement/narrative need some folks (like Tucker) who specifically aren't in that "reflexively oppose all things Western" crowd in order to make certain specifics of this conflict resonate with more people?

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I don't know how old you are or why you hate what you think of as "The Left" so much but I am old enough to have been aware of many of the events you refer to and sometimes to the extent of actually protesting myself. I can state with confidence based on my own experience that your characterization of "The Left" is rapidly decaying into 100% pure weapons grade bolognium.

RocksInMyHead said:

I'm not sure how you could possibly get that impression from what I said.

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Thank you for clarifying your position. I apologize for any misunderstanding on my part.

To return to my original point, whether it was four thousand years ago, two thousand years ago, or today, the nation of Israel and the Jewish people are regarded as God’s chosen people. Although they have disobeyed God on numerous occasions and faced consequences over the millennia, the Bible consistently affirms that the Jewish people and Israel are chosen by God. According to scripture, they will be protected, preserved, and ultimately offered the salvation that God extends to all.

Do you agree or disagree with these biblical principles?

ViaCrucis said:

I remember reading a Texe Marrs

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My condolences, bruv. Marrs was a nasty piece of work, and Im not sure whether he was a complete crackpot, a vile grifter preying on the credulous, or a mixture of both. I saw a church broken up because of his rubbish. One of the church elders declared that pastor "didn't believe the Bible" because he told her that our Lord might not return in 2000, and she left and took about half the congregation with her. One of the people who stayed jokingly dubbed the preacher "Brother Gideon" becaue of it.

ViaCrucis said:

This was big business in many corners of the Evangelical and Fundamentalist world of the 70's and 80

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Very big, and I almost got sucked into it myself. I was probably saved from it by my mom's hard-nosed Korean skepticism. She declared Marrs to be a crook from her first reading of one of his books. (I persuaded her that the bookstore wouldn't give me my money back, but at least I should have tried.)

ViaCrucis said:

Mike Warnke is perhaps the most famous of these, he was everywhere, not just at churches and Christian conferences, but on mainstream broadcasts being interviewed by serious journalists.

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No lie. I doubted him from the outset. His tale just never rang true somehow; it smacked too much of magic, and I'd already learned that magic was designed either to entertain an audience or bilk the gullible.