Ye olde anti-vaxxers ...

[tas8831]

From ... The Long View: Ye Olde Anti-Vaxxers

"In March 1885, a train from Chicago arrived at Bonaventure Station in Montréal with a particularly dangerous passenger: smallpox. George Longley, train conductor, feverish and boiling with pustules, found a bed and medical care at the Hôtel-Dieu. Longley recovered, but not before a laundry-maid named Pélagie Robichaud caught the disease from his contaminated linens. She died on April 2nd. Her sister soon followed. By late summer, smallpox was everywhere. In November, when the epidemic finally burnt itself out, nearly two percent of Montréal’s population had been killed, and many more had been blinded and scarred. Most of the victims were children.

The vaccine first tested and described by Edward Jenner in 1796 was by now nearly a century old, widespread and well-established. Why did Montréal remain so vulnerable to a reliably preventable sickness with fatality rates of up to 40 percent? The answer is that there was another epidemic taking hold: in Montréal, an outbreak of hesitancy was outpacing the disease. Resistance to vaccination was particularly pronounced in the city’s east, a zone inhabited predominantly by typically poorer French Canadians – at the end of the year, French Canadians would make up 90 percent of the dead."

Strange that a Christian laugh-reacted at this.
Then again, today's Christian tends to be a cult member that worships selfishness and a hateful narcissist, so...

 

[tas8831]

My church for the most part doesn't take any vaccination or medication. They are word of faith. And God is Jehovah Rapha. And I tell you I hardly see anyone sick at my church. Healthiest group of people you have ever seen. I've been coming here a year. Hope it rubs off. But not judging peoples' intentions I think is important. You don't know.

Matthew 7:1-2

1Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again

Most of my colleagues are not religious. All accept the evidence for the efficacy of modern medicine. Healthiest group of people you have ever seen. Been working here for 20 years.

 

[tas8831]

But wait...the vaccine was supposed to "give us immunity" which was later changed to "protect" us!!

Can you document that 'change'?
Do you think immunity does not 'protect' you? Do you think immunity is 100% effective against all variants of a virus?

The immune system is important and it works a certain way/

Yes, a certain way. Not everyone's works the same. Not everyone will be exposed to the same variant that a vaccine is intended for, but it may still produce an advantage.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Can you document that 'change'?
Do you think immunity does not 'protect' you? Do you think immunity is 100% effective against all variants of a virus?

Yes, a certain way. Not everyone's works the same. Not everyone will be exposed to the same variant that a vaccine is intended for, but it may still produce an advantage.

Recovering from the virus gives us immunity. Jury is still out on this new vaccine.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Can you document that 'change'?
Do you think immunity does not 'protect' you? Do you think immunity is 100% effective against all variants of a virus?

Yes, a certain way. Not everyone's works the same. Not everyone will be exposed to the same variant that a vaccine is intended for, but it may still produce an advantage.

Certainly:
"Before the change, the definition for “vaccination” read, “the act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce immunity to a specific disease.” Now, the word “immunity” has been switched to “protection.” The term “vaccine” also got a makeover. The CDC’s definition changed from “a product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease” to the current “a preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases.”"


https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article254111268.html#storylink=cpy

 

[Subduction Zone]

Recovering from the virus gives us immunity. Jury is still out on this new vaccine.

No, recovering from the vaccine does not give you immunity anymore than recovering from the flu means that you will never get the flu again. When new strains evolve even if one had it before one can get it again. And also immunity fades over time. The older one gets the faster it fades, so one can even get the exact same strain again. The Omicron strain appears to have changed enough so that even those that have had it may be at risk. The good news is that if one has had it one will most likely have a mild case if they get it again.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Certainly:
"Before the change, the definition for “vaccination” read, “the act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce immunity to a specific disease.” Now, the word “immunity” has been switched to “protection.” The term “vaccine” also got a makeover. The CDC’s definition changed from “a product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease” to the current “a preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases.”"


https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article254111268.html#storylink=cpy

But that is always what vaccines did. Vaccines were never perfect. The new vaccines would qualify as vaccines under the old definition. What they did was to make what a vaccine is clearer. They did not change what qualifies as a vaccine at all.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Recovering from the virus gives us immunity. Jury is still out on this new vaccine.

Not really, the jury is in - we now have ~6 billion doses worth of experience of these vaccines, and evidence from hospitals & medical centres worldwide.

There are still some unknowns, such as for how long they will provide significant protection against serious illness, and how effective they'll be with the latest variant. But in the UK, it looks like booster jabs bring protection levels back up to around 95%.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

No, recovering from the vaccine does not give you immunity anymore than recovering from the flu means that you will never get the flu again. When new strains evolve even if one had it before one can get it again. And also immunity fades over time. The older one gets the faster it fades, so one can even get the exact same strain again. The Omicron strain appears to have changed enough so that even those that have had it may be at risk. The good news is that if one has had it one will most likely have a mild case if they get it again.

Well, that's not true at all. You won't get the same or similar strains again.

Even years ago, they understood this - unless we have "rewritten" this science also, in order to push more product now.

From Time magazine:

" How long do flu antibodies last?

A: According to our study, it appears they can last the entire lifespan of the human organism — 90 years plus.

In our study we were looking for antibodies to the 1918 flu. This flu virus was reconstructed a number of years ago in the lab, so we were able to test to see if 90 years later we could still find antibodies. I recruited survivors, people who were born in 1915 or earlier and thus presumably survived the 1918 flu. We found that virtually all the people born in 1915 or earlier — about 90% of them — had good "titers" to the 1918 flu, which means they still had reasonably high concentrations of the antibodies in their blood, whereas among controls, people who were born in 1926 or later, it was only about 10%. That was really quite a remarkable finding.

The important question in this study is whether the antibodies still work after all that time, and I think my colleagues really found some very decisive results. I sent the blood samples from the survivors to my colleagues, Chris Basler at Mount Sinai, who's a professor of microbiology, and James Crowe at Vanderbilt, who's in pediatrics, microbiology and immunology. Dr Crowe and his colleagues at Vanderbilt isolated five different antibodies to the 1918 flu. Then Dr. Basler and colleagues looked at how those antibodies bind to the virus. It was quite strong and specific. We tried to compare it to other viruses, studying, for example, whether the antibody would bind to the flu of 1999 or to earlier ones, like the 1943 flu. Most antibodies bound to 1918, and only 1918. One of them bound, but much more weakly, to a couple of others. So that was really quite good evidence, we thought."

Breaking News, Analysis, Politics, Blogs, News Photos, Video, Tech Reviews - TIME.com

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Not really, the jury is in - we now have ~6 billion doses worth of experience of these vaccines, and evidence from hospitals & medical centres worldwide.

There are still some unknowns, such as for how long they will provide significant protection against serious illness, and how effective they'll be with the latest variant. But in the UK, it looks like booster jabs bring protection levels back up to around 95%.

For the moment. Wait a few months.

ALL of the omicron cases so far are vaccinated, unless someone has seen a new one that I have missed.

 

[Tanj]

For the moment. Wait a few months.

ALL of the omicron cases so far are vaccinated, unless someone has seen a new one that I have missed.

You think all of the infected in South Africa are vaccinated, a country with a vax rate of 25%?

"Dr. Angelique Coetzee, who chairs the South African Medical Association, said that the nation’s hospitals were not overwhelmed by patients infected with the new variant, and most of those hospitalized were not fully immunized."

Seriously.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

For the moment. Wait a few months.

ALL of the omicron cases so far are vaccinated, unless someone has seen a new one that I have missed.

Omicron appears to have considerable vaccine escape, but the unvaccinated are more susceptible. The stats so far still suggest the fully vaccinated are better protected, although Omicron symptoms seem to be generally milder. In South Africa, "The vast majority of patients admitted to hospital with Covid-19 due to the new Omicron variant “are unvaccinated”."

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well, that's not true at all. You won't get the same or similar strains again.

Even years ago, they understood this - unless we have "rewritten" this science also, in order to push more product now.

From Time magazine:

" How long do flu antibodies last?

A: According to our study, it appears they can last the entire lifespan of the human organism — 90 years plus.

In our study we were looking for antibodies to the 1918 flu. This flu virus was reconstructed a number of years ago in the lab, so we were able to test to see if 90 years later we could still find antibodies. I recruited survivors, people who were born in 1915 or earlier and thus presumably survived the 1918 flu. We found that virtually all the people born in 1915 or earlier — about 90% of them — had good "titers" to the 1918 flu, which means they still had reasonably high concentrations of the antibodies in their blood, whereas among controls, people who were born in 1926 or later, it was only about 10%. That was really quite a remarkable finding.

The important question in this study is whether the antibodies still work after all that time, and I think my colleagues really found some very decisive results. I sent the blood samples from the survivors to my colleagues, Chris Basler at Mount Sinai, who's a professor of microbiology, and James Crowe at Vanderbilt, who's in pediatrics, microbiology and immunology. Dr Crowe and his colleagues at Vanderbilt isolated five different antibodies to the 1918 flu. Then Dr. Basler and colleagues looked at how those antibodies bind to the virus. It was quite strong and specific. We tried to compare it to other viruses, studying, for example, whether the antibody would bind to the flu of 1999 or to earlier ones, like the 1943 flu. Most antibodies bound to 1918, and only 1918. One of them bound, but much more weakly, to a couple of others. So that was really quite good evidence, we thought."

Breaking News, Analysis, Politics, Blogs, News Photos, Video, Tech Reviews - TIME.com

Covid19 is not the flu. Different viruses have antibodies that last a different amount of time. A classic example is the chickenpox virus. If you had chickenpox as a child you run a very strong risk of developing shingles later in your life. The disease is never totally eliminated from the body and as we grow our immune systems begin to fail. And the virus is there waiting for that"

Chickenpox - Wikipedia.

More specific to Covid19 you might want to read this article. It even mentions the article that you linked. The body does keep producing antibodies a long time, but there is a period of transition from the initial antibodies to long term ones. We know that vaccinated people had on average far less severe reactions to the delta variant if they caught it. We have yet to see if there is a difference in reaction to the omicron variant.

Immunity To COVID-19 Could Last Longer Than You'd Think

 

[tas8831]

Recovering from the virus gives us immunity.

Even the new variants? Hmmm...

"The researchers also compared reinfection rates among people who had once had a confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection and were still unvaccinated and people who had once had the infection and had also received one dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine.

Results showed that the unvaccinated group was twice as likely to contract the infection again, compared with those who had received one dose of the vaccine."​

Protection against Delta: Comparing vaccines and natural immunity

Jury is still out on this new vaccine.

Not really.

 

[tas8831]

Certainly:
"Before the change, the definition for “vaccination” read, “the act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce immunity to a specific disease.” Now, the word “immunity” has been switched to “protection.” The term “vaccine” also got a makeover. The CDC’s definition changed from “a product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease” to the current “a preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases.”"


https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article254111268.html#storylink=cpy

Most interesting:

The previous definitions could have been “interpreted to mean that vaccines were 100% effective, which has never been the case for any vaccine, so the current definition is more transparent, and also describes the ways in which vaccines can be administered,” the spokesperson said.​

Read more at: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article254111268.html#storylink=cpy

It is cool to read the context.
But since it is clear that 'natural immunity' is not perfect, either, will you folks be honest and transparent and update your claims as well?

Doubt it.

 

[tas8831]

You think all of the infected in South Africa are vaccinated, a country with a vax rate of 25%?

"Dr. Angelique Coetzee, who chairs the South African Medical Association, said that the nation’s hospitals were not overwhelmed by patients infected with the new variant, and most of those hospitalized were not fully immunized."

Seriously.

Well sure, but that is not what conservative Christian vloggers, the folks on OAN, televangelists, etc., order their minions to believe, so....

 

[tas8831]

ALL of the omicron cases so far are vaccinated, unless someone has seen a new one that I have missed.

Let me guess - you "do your own research"?

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

You think all of the infected in South Africa are vaccinated, a country with a vax rate of 25%?

"Dr. Angelique Coetzee, who chairs the South African Medical Association, said that the nation’s hospitals were not overwhelmed by patients infected with the new variant, and most of those hospitalized were not fully immunized."

Seriously.

All the ones in THIS country, I should have said. Sorry for the oversight.

Perhaps there are a few that have been detected who are not, now that it has been a few days.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Omicron appears to have considerable vaccine escape, but the unvaccinated are more susceptible. The stats so far still suggest the fully vaccinated are better protected, although Omicron symptoms seem to be generally milder. In South Africa, "The vast majority of patients admitted to hospital with Covid-19 due to the new Omicron variant “are unvaccinated”."

Yep, vaccine escape. Exactly was was expected. If the unvaccinated are more susceptible, it is odd that what is being reported is that most of the cases in the US are indeed vaccinated, and many boosted.

"Most of the 43 people known to have been infected with the Omicron variant of coronavirus in the United STates had mild symptoms, but most had been vaccinated and 14 of them had already had booster doses, the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported Friday."

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Covid19 is not the flu. Different viruses have antibodies that last a different amount of time. A classic example is the chickenpox virus. If you had chickenpox as a child you run a very strong risk of developing shingles later in your life. The disease is never totally eliminated from the body and as we grow our immune systems begin to fail. And the virus is there waiting for that"

Chickenpox - Wikipedia.

More specific to Covid19 you might want to read this article. It even mentions the article that you linked. The body does keep producing antibodies a long time, but there is a period of transition from the initial antibodies to long term ones. We know that vaccinated people had on average far less severe reactions to the delta variant if they caught it. We have yet to see if there is a difference in reaction to the omicron variant.

Immunity To COVID-19 Could Last Longer Than You'd Think

Interesting stat from the CDC regarding shingles: Shingles vaccination among adults aged 60 and over increased from 6.7% in 2008 to 34.5% in 2018.

Gee, what happened in those 10 years when the incidence nearly quadrupled? Hmmm.

Shingles was really rare in adults when I was growing up and everybody had chicken pox (or exposure). Everybody.