Subduction Zone

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Just for argument's sake, let's assume your assertion here is correct. If so, then there is nothing to worry about. Everyone can go about his life.

However, the fear-churners in the Left wing media have ramped up fear to full speed. President Biden just told the country this will be a "winter of severe illness and death" (as opposed to last year's "dark winter").

The vaccinated are getting Omicron, not the unvaccinated, at this point. They closed down Cornell University last week because of 900 cases among VACCINATED students. Anyone, regardless of number of vaccines, can contract the virus and spread it.

So which is it? Either one does have protection against the variant if vaccinated or one does not? It appears that the cases are growing in the vaccinated.
Nope. Vaccinated and unvaccinated get omicron. The unvaccinated are not reported because that is hardly news. Cornell has a very high vaccination rate so naturally a large percentage of the students that get the omicron variant will have been vaccinated since it appears to get around the vaccine. That does not mean that the unvaccinated do not get it.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Just for argument's sake, let's assume your assertion here is correct. If so, then there is nothing to worry about. Everyone can go about his life.

However, the fear-churners in the Left wing media have ramped up fear to full speed. President Biden just told the country this will be a "winter of severe illness and death" (as opposed to last year's "dark winter").

The vaccinated are getting Omicron, not the unvaccinated, at this point. They closed down Cornell University last week because of 900 cases among VACCINATED students. Anyone, regardless of number of vaccines, can contract the virus and spread it.

So which is it? Either one does have protection against the variant if vaccinated or one does not? It appears that the cases are growing in the vaccinated.
The problem is that two vaccinations are only about 20% effective against Omicron infection, significantly fewer people have had boosters, and it's much more transmissible (a recent UK estimate was an R value of around 5), causing exponential growth.

This means that, without measures to slow the spread, very large numbers are likely to become infected (as we are seeing in the UK). So even if a far smaller percentage of the infected will be hospitalized, the large overall number of infections means that a lot of people are still likely to be hospitalized, putting significant pressure on hospitals & ambulance services that are already under strain.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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No. Cornell was fully vaccinated and got approximately 900 cases. No one "expected" that. The narrative just keeps changing.

First we were fully vaccinated and protected. Whoops. Not true.

Then we were fully vaccinated and with a booster and protected. Whoops. Not true.

Instead of doubling down, let's just admit that this experiment didn't work.
I can't speak for Cornell, the figures I was using were from early UK studies, for a very different demographic. South Africa figures (a different demographic again) seem to show far more young people being infected in the Omicron wave, although I haven't seen an analysis of why that might be.

E.T.A. I have a correction for figures I quoted previously - latest figures suggest that a booster jab (3rd jab) gives ~70% protection against symptomatic infection.
 
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renniks

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I've been a Christian longer than you've been alive. Any fool can call themselves a Christian, and a great many do. But a name means nothing. Because it's not what one calls oneself that matters, it's how one lives that matters, and that's a lesson that I'm afraid you'll never learn.

So go ahead, go to your church, and willfully kill your fellow man. Forget all that nonsense about loving them, who could possibly believe in doing that. Apparently...not your church.
There's one in every crowd...that person who wants to think he can be your conscience.
How about we listen to God and ignore you?
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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Nope. Vaccinated and unvaccinated get omicron. The unvaccinated are not reported because that is hardly news. Cornell has a very high vaccination rate so naturally a large percentage of the students that get the omicron variant will have been vaccinated since it appears to get around the vaccine. That does not mean that the unvaccinated do not get it.
Well, it does when Cornell was at near 100% compliance. The vaccinated got it. There are none or few unvaccinated.

Not sure what you mean about unvaccinated not being news when they get it. That's all that is reported 24/7 ad nauseam, even though most of the country has already complied.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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The problem is that two vaccinations are only about 20% effective against Omicron infection, significantly fewer people have had boosters, and it's much more transmissible (a recent UK estimate was an R value of around 5), causing exponential growth.

This means that, without measures to slow the spread, very large numbers are likely to become infected (as we are seeing in the UK). So even if a far smaller percentage of the infected will be hospitalized, the large overall number of infections means that a lot of people are still likely to be hospitalized, putting significant pressure on hospitals & ambulance services that are already under strain.
So...stop worrying about it if you are vaccinated. Why all the fear nonstop in the media? Let's move on. What will be will be. It's pretty clear most people have been exposed by now in some way anyway, whether or not they ever knew it.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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So...stop worrying about it if you are vaccinated. Why all the fear nonstop in the media? Let's move on. What will be will be. It's pretty clear most people have been exposed by now in some way anyway, whether or not they ever knew it.
Worrying is counterproductive. Taking sensible precautions maximizes the chances of a long, healthy, and happy life.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Well, it does when Cornell was at near 100% compliance. The vaccinated got it. There are none or few unvaccinated.

Not sure what you mean about unvaccinated not being news when they get it. That's all that is reported 24/7 ad nauseam, even though most of the country has already complied.

I see that you do not understand statistics. Of course the vaccinated got it. The omicron variant is a breakthrough strain. The unvaccinated get it too. But in a population where the vast majority have been vaccinated and there is a break through strain the majority of those that get it will have been vaccinated. This is not a hard idea to understand.

And you just demonstrated why the unvaccinated getting the omicron variant is not news. It is what was expected to happen.
 
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Subduction Zone

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So...stop worrying about it if you are vaccinated. Why all the fear nonstop in the media? Let's move on. What will be will be. It's pretty clear most people have been exposed by now in some way anyway, whether or not they ever knew it.
Urging people to take a sensible precaution is not fear.

By your logic there should be no commercials telling people not to drink and drive at the time of certain holidays . . stop worrying about it if you are sober. Your car can't get hit by one driven by a drunk driver.
 
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Ophiolite

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So...stop worrying about it if you are vaccinated. Why all the fear nonstop in the media? Let's move on. What will be will be. It's pretty clear most people have been exposed by now in some way anyway, whether or not they ever knew it.
Most people can walk across a road without being hit by a car. Therefore, next time you cross the road, don't even bother looking. Clealry you are unlikely to be hit.
(Notice to the young and gullible: don't try this at home.)
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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Urging people to take a sensible precaution is not fear.

By your logic there should be no commercials telling people not to drink and drive at the time of certain holidays . . stop worrying about it if you are sober. Your car can't get hit by one driven by a drunk driver.
No, that logic doesn't work.

Telling someone to take a substance without any long term data on what might happen, given the huge payouts and criminal fines Pharma has been hit with over the years is not at all like advising one NOT to drink and drive, which is just common sense. We all know about alcohol and all long - and short term- issues.
 
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Subduction Zone

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No, that logic doesn't work.

Telling someone to take a substance without any long term data on what might happen, given the huge payouts and criminal fines Pharma has been hit with over the years is not at all like advising one NOT to drink and drive, which is just common sense. We all know about alcohol and all long - and short term- issues.
Sorry but it does. You are grasping at straws. Rarely "big pharma" has to pay out a significant amount of money. But they are making so many drugs that it is rather likely that some of them will have problems. Cherry picking the relatively few failures and ignoring the vast majority of the successes is a failure on your part.

And we are actually punished if we get caught drinking and driving. It is far more than just a suggestion. Yes, we know all about alcohol, and we know how the unvaccinated were 90% of the dying during the previous outbreak. That is a far greater difference than accidents caused by drunk drivers vs. all other accidents. You are still advocating for drinking and driving with your 'logic'.
 
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Bob Crowley

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Australia is now going to be a test case for infection rates. We've managed to avoid the worst of the problems some other countries have had by border closures (both national and interstate), some lockdowns (particularly in Melbourne in Victoria), social distancing, contact tracing, wearing masks etc.

It's caused a lot of social upheaval and problems for business and employees especially those in the hospitality and entertainment industries.

We are also 90.9% double vaccinated for people aged 16 or older. Some age groups are 99% double vaccinated (75-94). But only about 7.5% have received booster shots.

Recently the borders reopened, and they're probably going to stay open. Sure as eggs, the virus has started to move through the community.

It remains to be seen how many people get infected, but more critically how many get seriously ill or die from coronavirus.

Three days ago Queensland had about 86 recorded infections. Today it was reported as being 369 infections, and there's probably a lot that haven't been picked up. it will probably double every two days.

So now we're about to see how effective the vaccination campaign has been in Australia.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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Sorry but it does. You are grasping at straws. Rarely "big pharma" has to pay out a significant amount of money. But they are making so many drugs that it is rather likely that some of them will have problems. Cherry picking the relatively few failures and ignoring the vast majority of the successes is a failure on your part.

And we are actually punished if we get caught drinking and driving. It is far more than just a suggestion. Yes, we know all about alcohol, and we know how the unvaccinated were 90% of the dying during the previous outbreak. That is a far greater difference than accidents caused by drunk drivers vs. all other accidents. You are still advocating for drinking and driving with your 'logic'.
No, declining from consuming a product never carries the risk that consuming it does, especially in this case where there is ZERO long term data and lots of reports of side effects.

Pfizer paid out 1 billion in settlements and 1.3 billion in CRIMINAL FINES just a decade ago for false promotion of several drugs. And now you have changed the goalposts, meaning you are grasping here, not me.

The refuted position was the relative risk of forcing a drug on unwilling people vs. declining a drug on your own. You have now added additional criminal behavior (drinking and driving) in an attempt to make your case. Granted. Drinking and driving is already criminal. There is not point to adding that fact.

By sharp contrast, NO one is a risk from a drug and its side effects if he declines it; if he consumes it, he must have full knowledge and consent of all possible outcomes and he must be FREE to take the risk or not, upon full knowledge. That is merely a rational position.

You are unaware of the case law here too. Here is a list of a few of the recent settlements, many including criminal fines:

Let’s take a look at the top 10 pharmaceutical settlements, in order of dollar amounts (highest to lowest). These can include a combination of criminal fines and civil settlements:

Company
Amount of penalties Year
GlaxoSmithKline $3 billion 2012
Pfizer $2.3 billion 2009
Johnson & Johnson $2.2 billion 2013
Abbott $1.5 billion 2012
Eli Lilly $1.42 billion 2009
Merck $950 million 2011
Amgen $762 million 2012
AstraZeneca $520 million 2010
Actelion $360 million 2018
Purdue Pharma $270 million 2019

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

Now we know full well that taking the vaccine does nothing to prevent transmission to others OR to prevent contraction. The only weak argument remaining, as the facts come out, is "Well, you probably won't die if you take it". Ok, that is fine. Each, based on his risk factors should determine whether or not he should take it. Older people have mostly complied. Young healthy people are a much smaller percentage. Virtually everyone is getting it - or some cold symptoms, which are all the top symptoms of Omicron, regardless of status. So do what you deem best, since you are the only one who will benefit, should it help you. And leave everyone else to make his own decision. Autocracy is really unconstitutional.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Australia is now going to be a test case for infection rates. We've managed to avoid the worst of the problems some other countries have had by border closures (both national and interstate), some lockdowns (particularly in Melbourne in Victoria), social distancing, contact tracing, wearing masks etc.

It's caused a lot of social upheaval and problems for business and employees especially those in the hospitality and entertainment industries.

We are also 90.9% double vaccinated for people aged 16 or older. Some age groups are 99% double vaccinated (75-94). But only about 7.5% have received booster shots.

Recently the borders reopened, and they're probably going to stay open. Sure as eggs, the virus has started to move through the community.

It remains to be seen how many people get infected, but more critically how many get seriously ill or die from coronavirus.

Three days ago Queensland had about 86 recorded infections. Today it was reported as being 369 infections, and there's probably a lot that haven't been picked up. it will probably double every two days.

So now we're about to see how effective the vaccination campaign has been in Australia.
The current figures from SA & UK suggest that 2 vaccinations only give about 30% protection against Omicron, but 2 vaccinations & a booster take it up to 70%+.

If I were you, I'd keep my vitamin D topped up (last I heard, at least 4,000 IU / 100μg a day is recommended for immune support), with 200μg of vitamin K2 (to keep the mobilised calcium from settling on artery walls), and up to 25μg zinc. See NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTS FOR COVID-19 PROPHYLAXIS AND SYMPTOM DE-ESCALATION.
Vitamin D and covid-19: enough evidence to recommend supplements | The BMJ.
etc.
 
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Bob Crowley

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Three days ago (Friday) Queensland had about 86 recorded infections. Today it was reported as being 369 infections, and there's probably a lot that haven't been picked up. it will probably double every two days.

It's now up to 714, 75% of which are Omicron.

Queensland records 714 new COVID-19 cases, but numbers likely to spike in coming days

Queensland has recorded 714 new cases of COVID-19, with 75 per cent of those being the Omicron variant, Treasurer Cameron Dick says.

It will eventually become endemic, like the common cold.

As for testing stations, one quite close to home was causing a potentially dangerous situation today and yesterday with queued cars backed up and over an overpass leading from a major highway. If we have to get tested I think we'll look somewhere else.
 
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Subduction Zone

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No, declining from consuming a product never carries the risk that consuming it does, especially in this case where there is ZERO long term data and lots of reports of side effects.

Pfizer paid out 1 billion in settlements and 1.3 billion in CRIMINAL FINES just a decade ago for false promotion of several drugs. And now you have changed the goalposts, meaning you are grasping here, not me.

The refuted position was the relative risk of forcing a drug on unwilling people vs. declining a drug on your own. You have now added additional criminal behavior (drinking and driving) in an attempt to make your case. Granted. Drinking and driving is already criminal. There is not point to adding that fact.

By sharp contrast, NO one is a risk from a drug and its side effects if he declines it; if he consumes it, he must have full knowledge and consent of all possible outcomes and he must be FREE to take the risk or not, upon full knowledge. That is merely a rational position.

You are unaware of the case law here too. Here is a list of a few of the recent settlements, many including criminal fines:

Let’s take a look at the top 10 pharmaceutical settlements, in order of dollar amounts (highest to lowest). These can include a combination of criminal fines and civil settlements:

Company
Amount of penalties Year
GlaxoSmithKline $3 billion 2012
Pfizer $2.3 billion 2009
Johnson & Johnson $2.2 billion 2013
Abbott $1.5 billion 2012
Eli Lilly $1.42 billion 2009
Merck $950 million 2011
Amgen $762 million 2012
AstraZeneca $520 million 2010
Actelion $360 million 2018
Purdue Pharma $270 million 2019

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

Now we know full well that taking the vaccine does nothing to prevent transmission to others OR to prevent contraction. The only weak argument remaining, as the facts come out, is "Well, you probably won't die if you take it". Ok, that is fine. Each, based on his risk factors should determine whether or not he should take it. Older people have mostly complied. Young healthy people are a much smaller percentage. Virtually everyone is getting it - or some cold symptoms, which are all the top symptoms of Omicron, regardless of status. So do what you deem best, since you are the only one who will benefit, should it help you. And leave everyone else to make his own decision. Autocracy is really unconstitutional.
It appears that you still do not know how to use analogies. The analogy was fine. You are relying on falsehoods and now adding an ad hominem fallacy into the mix.

Why not ask questions when you do not understand something? I am assuming that you simply do not know since openly lying appears to be the only other possibility. And I do not think that you are doing that.
 
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Bob Crowley

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It's now up to 714, 75% of which are Omicron.

The count for Queensland is now up to 1158 in the last 24 hours.

The following graph is from the Queensland Health Department. It shows the increase in Covid infections once we reopened our borders on the 19th November if I remember rightly. The up-spike speaks for itself.

We're now basically dependent on vaccinations, plus masks and social distancing, and medical treatment for those who get ill enough. It would be stupid to close the borders again. I also can't see the point in trying to track down the source of infection once it becomes endemic as it would be like trying to monitor infection sources for the common cold.

It would be a waste of time and resources.

upload_2021-12-29_8-26-39.png
 
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Bob Crowley

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Now it's up to 6,781 cases in the last 24 hours in Queensland, a week later than my previous post, and there are most likely more who aren't aware they've got it at this stage.

Once the borders reopened the virus came with the people, which was to be expected.

At least our second vaccination rate has reached 86.9% and is gradually increasing. I see vaccination as the main line of defence.

Queensland reports 6,781 new COVID cases as lengthy queues again form at testing sites
 
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