Why worry about the Ten Commandments, if you are disregarding the Sabbath?

[Philip]

IIRC, it originated in the Roman Catholic Church (though it may not be doctrine, I am open to correction by my RC friends) and hence was retained by the Protestants. The Orthodox Church has no such belief.

It was first put forth by Pope Gregory the Great. He also identified her as St Mary of Bethany, the sister of Sts Martha and Lazarus. I don't think it is an official teaching since Aquinus opposed it.

 

[TheDag]

I'm terribly sorry. It seems I am not very good at covering all my points.

Please make note first and foremost that, as we all believe, salvation is through Christ alone. I don't believe it is impossible to keep all of the Commandments. With Christ living in us, and Him forming us into what He wants us to be, we should be able to! Our best efforts may be humble... God wants those efforts! He does not see an effort that is out of a love for Him as filthy. What is filthy is when we seek a righteousness through these efforts without His Son.

When I wrote my post earlier today I wasn't feeling well as I recently had a knock to my head which gave me headaches and made me dizzy so I didn't give as much thought to my post and how it would come across as I normally would. I was certain before I wrote that post that you believe in salvation through faith not by works.

I suppose I don't understand how observing the commandments out of love for Jesus is considered "under the law". It is not done out of fear or guilt, but out of love.

I think I understand where your coming from. I've been called legalistic because I refuse to cross the road on the don't walk signal. The way I saw it was that I was following the law (after all we are supposed to follow man made laws if they don't go against the bible). If I was being legalistic then it means I would try to force my friends to do the same.

So if we accept Jesus as LORD and SAVIOR, then should we not TRY to keep the commandments? I mean, out of all of the commandments, doesn't it seem like the 4th is the easiest to keep? After all, it was "made for man"!

I agree we should try to keep his commandments. I guess alot also depends on our individual experience. I've had a number of SDA's tell me I should worship on saturday not sunday (they've also said you should only use an organ foe music in church which is a load of rubbish). I don't think it matters what day you worship as someone said earlier we should be worshipping God all the time. I think I said earlier that I don't think God cares which day we consider the sabbath to be. (and I know some people here have and will disagree with that) My reasoning is we don't really know which day of the week is the seventh day. Calenders wearn't around for awhile after creation. Also there are two different ways to look at the word day in the creation story and I don't believe there is evidence enough to prove one is right and the other wrong. The word used for day can also mean a period of time. Now for arguments sake lets say thats correct. It would mean that we should take a period of time out to remember God and what he has done for us.

I'm sorry TheDag... I looked back through our posts and couldn't find a specific question that you asked about NT law... could you refresh me?

The command I mentioned as an example was the head covering but in general I was referring to commands in Pauls letters. Those laws obviously wearn't abolished by Jesus on the cross so how do we view those is the question. I wonder if we really can keep all the commandments. Is not telling the truth breaking a commandment. If so if we tell our kids that the tooth fairy, easter bunny or santa claus is real then we aren't telling our kids the truth. I've had some friends who say thats ok because your teaching/encouraging your child to be creative. One church my wife used to go to had a fantastic idea. Instead of telling kids there was a tooth fairy they would give the child $1 if they lost a tooth and say they were giving them the money as a way of celebrating their growth. This eliminated the need to tell a lie as well as making sure the children didn't miss out on money because of this belief.

 

[Celticflower]

I have a book around here somewhere that tries to point out which Mary (or other woman mistaken as Mary) is which. It says that there is 1-Mary, mother of Jesus, 2-Mary, sister of Lazarus and Martha, 3-Mary Magdeleine, out of whom Jesus cast 7 semons, 4- a woman caught in adultery, unnamed, 5- an unnamed prostitute who annointed him at a dinner.
Many times #s 2-5 have been combined in some way, shape or form to create one character with a multitude of faults.

 

[GypsyBella]

When I wrote my post earlier today I wasn't feeling well as I recently had a knock to my head which gave me headaches and made me dizzy so I didn't give as much thought to my post and how it would come across as I normally would. I was certain before I wrote that post that you believe in salvation through faith not by works.


I think I understand where your coming from. I've been called legalistic because I refuse to cross the road on the don't walk signal. The way I saw it was that I was following the law (after all we are supposed to follow man made laws if they don't go against the bible). If I was being legalistic then it means I would try to force my friends to do the same.


I agree we should try to keep his commandments. I guess alot also depends on our individual experience. I've had a number of SDA's tell me I should worship on saturday not sunday (they've also said you should only use an organ foe music in church which is a load of rubbish). I don't think it matters what day you worship as someone said earlier we should be worshipping God all the time. I think I said earlier that I don't think God cares which day we consider the sabbath to be. (and I know some people here have and will disagree with that) My reasoning is we don't really know which day of the week is the seventh day. Calenders wearn't around for awhile after creation. Also there are two different ways to look at the word day in the creation story and I don't believe there is evidence enough to prove one is right and the other wrong. The word used for day can also mean a period of time. Now for arguments sake lets say thats correct. It would mean that we should take a period of time out to remember God and what he has done for us.

The command I mentioned as an example was the head covering but in general I was referring to commands in Pauls letters. Those laws obviously wearn't abolished by Jesus on the cross so how do we view those is the question. I wonder if we really can keep all the commandments. Is not telling the truth breaking a commandment. If so if we tell our kids that the tooth fairy, easter bunny or santa claus is real then we aren't telling our kids the truth. I've had some friends who say thats ok because your teaching/encouraging your child to be creative. One church my wife used to go to had a fantastic idea. Instead of telling kids there was a tooth fairy they would give the child $1 if they lost a tooth and say they were giving them the money as a way of celebrating their growth. This eliminated the need to tell a lie as well as making sure the children didn't miss out on money because of this belief.

First and foremost, I hope your head feels better.

I know what you mean about the crosswalk thing... I often hear that about going the speed limit... Yeah, I agree that we shouldn't force our beliefs on anybody, but I also think that it's important to share your beliefs (with scriptural references) with others. I suppose delivery is the key.

I find myself having to apologize for the behavior of other SDA's quite often... ha ha ha! Actually, I probably argue with SDA's more often than non-SDA's do. The Bible doesn't say anything about what day to worship on. It says what day to rest on. As far as the calendar is concerned, no matter how months and years were divided, there have always been seven days in the week. Even the Jewish people of today recognize that. God told us to remember that seventh day. That's why I do it. I find it hard to believe that God would ask us to remember something that we can't figure out in the first place.

Regarding the organ music... geez... I don't even wanna go there... my husband and I play guitar at church a lot. I mean seriously... what did people do before the organ?

Okay... and on to the next text (we're getting really good at carrying on multiple conversations at once, huh?). Were the instructions that Paul gave actually "laws"? Or suggestions? In most places I find that Paul writes in the best interest of who he is writing to. In one place he writes that it is better not to marry, and in another we read that it is better to marry than to burn with lust. They aren't contradictory... they are just written to different people in different situations. What do you think?

 

[holo]

The question is if we'd like to live according to the Spirit or according to the letter, because you can't have both. Remember that even the bible is (essentially and spiritually) worthless unless the Spirit reveals it to you. It's not for us to "figure out."

If you see something you want, do you choose not to steal it because a law tells you not to, or because the Spirit tells you not to? Do you live according to law or according to Spirit and love?

It's about who you are. If you're righteous and led by God, you don't need a law to live by, becaus you'll walk in love. And you ARE righteous when you believe in Him.

 

[GypsyBella]

It's about who you are. If you're righteous and led by God, you don't need a law to live by, becaus you'll walk in love. And you ARE righteous when you believe in Him.

So you're telling me that if I believe in Him, that means I'm righteous, even if I do something He specifically told us not to do?

He gave us His Son, and He gave us the Word, and He gave us the Holy Spirit. They all work in conjunction with each other. He didn't write the 10 Commandments in stone for the fun of it. We should be led by the Spirit in situations similar to what we were discussing earlier. We all know that marriage in itself is good, but if God's Spirit tells you that it's not good for you at the present time, then for you to marry would be sin. However, if the Bible specifically tells you that you shouldn't murder, you don't need the Spirit to tell you that, because God already did. The Spirit to helping you personally through your life is what the Jews didn't have before Christ.

As was also said before, living by the 10 Commandments is not living by the letter. Maybe you should review the last page or two of forum before we go back into that discussion.

 

[christwannabe]

this is my opinion on the christian's inconsistancy. if you read the bible and have been a christian for a while you will realize another purpose that the ten commandments serves other than high morals for the Godly people. and that other purpose is to allow us to realize that we cannot, it is impossible for us to, keep the ten commandments. And that is why by God's mercy, we are saved through Jesus christ. and it serves us to tell us that its not about our righteousness but about his righteousness and grace that we must turn to. that is not to say we are to ignore the Commandments at all, we try our best to follow the laws not because WE love Him but because HE loves US, for our love for him is not faithful like the love of our God for us. Christianitny is not about PERFECT people, its about hypocrites, sinners, messed up people trying to be more like Jesus everyday because of His love for us.

 

[pablosrun]

If you do away with the law (10 commandments) you do away with sin, Because 1 John 3:4 says sin is transgression of the law, therfore no law, no sin....

If you do away with sin, you do away with the need of a Savior... Sounds wrong to me!!!

 

[christwannabe]

It's about who you are. If you're righteous and led by God, you don't need a law to live by, becaus you'll walk in love. And you ARE righteous when you believe in Him.

I also disagree, Just because we believe him, our faith doesnt make us righteous. It is He, the guide, holy spirit, who i s righteous, not Us who are followers. also, what maybe right to you maybe wrong for other people who are christians and are of God. Then How do we know what is right and wrong? By the law and moral God and Jesus has revealed to us. Yes, holy spirit can also guide us, but remember to test the spirit according to Bible because the Evil one is there to manipulate you also.

 

[pablosrun]

and that other purpose is to allow us to realize that we cannot, it is impossible for us to, keep the ten commandments. .

So what you are saying is Satan can tempt us to sin, but God isn't strong enough to keep us from sinning? We don't serve the same God....Jesus told Mary Go and sin no more! He also said if you love me keep my commandments...

Read this

1 John 2:3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


So do you still think we can't keep them? and if so, which one are you breaking?
I'll pray for you!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[christwannabe]

So what you are saying is Satan can tempt us to sin, but God isn't strong enough to keep us from sinning? We don't serve the same God....Jesus told Mary Go and sin no more! He also said if you love me keep my commandments...

Read this

1 John 2:3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


So do you still think we can't keep them? and if so, which one are you breaking?
I'll pray for you!!!!!!!!!!!

pabloslon. When i am talking about the impossibility of keeping the commandments im talking about our constant failure and our struggle to keep the ten commandments. Let me ask you a question, have you EVER broken any of the ten commandments? i Think you have. If you have always kept them then good for you because you wouldnt need the grace of God. since you gave some bible verses to back your self up i will back up my statement with some verses using 1st John as you have.

1st John 2:1

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. BUT if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the father in our defense-Jesus Christ, the righeous One.

Though I may sin, and break the commandments I am of God, and of my savior Jesus christ because Jesus Christ stands in my defense.

also you have quoted a verse." if you love me keep my commandments..." My question to you is, how much do you love God? Jesus was pure to the core through out his life, and thats what it takes to keep the commandments with absolute purity. I have to admit, my love for God is not as great as Jesus' but i try my best to be like Him, to be perfect, because He is my God.

 

[GypsyBella]

this is my opinion on the christian's inconsistancy. if you read the bible and have been a christian for a while you will realize another purpose that the ten commandments serves other than high morals for the Godly people. and that other purpose is to allow us to realize that we cannot, it is impossible for us to, keep the ten commandments. And that is why by God's mercy, we are saved through Jesus christ. and it serves us to tell us that its not about our righteousness but about his righteousness and grace that we must turn to. that is not to say we are to ignore the Commandments at all, we try our best to follow the laws not because WE love Him but because HE loves US, for our love for him is not faithful like the love of our God for us. Christianitny is not about PERFECT people, its about hypocrites, sinners, messed up people trying to be more like Jesus everyday because of His love for us.

Where does the Bible say that the other purpose of the Commandments is to show us that we can't achieve them? They may show us what our transgressions are, but nowhere are we told that we are incapable of following them, especially with the help of the Holy Spirit. Yes, we must turn to His grace, and yes we might mess up, but that does not mean that we don't need to stive for perfection. Christianity is about hypocrites, sinners, and messed up people whom God has changed. If hypocrites, sinners, and messed up people turn to God, but remain hypocrites, sinner, and messed up people, what does that say about God?

 

[christwannabe]

Where does the Bible say that the other purpose of the Commandments is to show us that we can't achieve them? They may show us what our transgressions are, but nowhere are we told that we are incapable of following them, especially with the help of the Holy Spirit. Yes, we must turn to His grace, and yes we might mess up, but that does not mean that we don't need to stive for perfection. Christianity is about hypocrites, sinners, and messed up people whom God has changed. If hypocrites, sinners, and messed up people turn to God, but remain hypocrites, sinner, and messed up people, what does that say about God?

Let me explain my self, when i say that we CANT achieve ten commandments im not saying that we CANT follow them. and I NEVER said that we DONT need to strive for perfection.
For it says in Matthew 5:48 "be perfect. Therefore, as your heavenly father is perfect." and this is exactly my point, what i am trying to say is that we should strive for the perfectness of our father, but while we are still on this earth, until we are free from this humanly body, untill we are fully with God, we cant be PERFECT like GOD. again, this doesnt imply that we should strive for perfectness. and you asked this question...." If hypocrites, sinners, and messed up people turn to God, but remain hypocrites, sinner, and messed up people, what does that say about God??" well it tells me how much he loves me, no matter how messed up i am, he wont give up on me. it tells me of his perfect love for me.

 

[GypsyBella]

Let me explain my self, when i say that we CANT achieve ten commandments im not saying that we CANT follow them. and I NEVER said that we DONT need to strive for perfection.
For it says in Matthew 5:48 "be perfect. Therefore, as your heavenly father is perfect." and this is exactly my point, what i am trying to say is that we should strive for the perfectness of our father, but while we are still on this earth, until we are free from this humanly body, untill we are fully with God, we cant be PERFECT like GOD. again, this doesnt imply that we should strive for perfectness. and you asked this question...." If hypocrites, sinners, and messed up people turn to God, but remain hypocrites, sinner, and messed up people, what does that say about God??" well it tells me how much he loves me, no matter how messed up i am, he wont give up on me. it tells me of his perfect love for me.

Okay, I know I'm being curt, so please don't take offense to my questioning...

If God accepts you, and you are striving for perfection, it seems to me that you are no longer a hypocrtite, because the only thing you claim to be is a child of God, you are no longer a sinner, because Christ washed your sins away, and no longer a messed up person, because the Holy Spirit lives in you and comforts you. God accepts us in our sin, but after that it's an unhill battle, meaning a hard battle, but it's still going uphill...

Are we just coming to the same place from different directions?

 

[holo]

If you do away with sin, you do away with the need of a Savior... Sounds wrong to me!!!

True, but I don't need to do away with sin, because Jesus already has:
Romans 6:15
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
Romans 7:4-11
So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

 

[holo]

I also disagree, Just because we believe him, our faith doesnt make us righteous.

Yes it does, that's what the good news is all about! In plain words:
Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
(note "from first to last - oh glory!! Praise His blessed name, it doesn't depend on us!)
Again,
Romans 3:22
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
Oh, and here's a real good one:
Romans 4:5
However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Puhh-raise tha LAWD!

I promise you that once the truth of your righteousness starts to dawn on you, you'll begin to live a life so full, so free, so clean, so fruitful that you couldn't dream about! It's going to beat all your efforts to the ground when you get to live the life GOD has prepared for you. But it takes time, because a lot of us have grown up hearing the schizophrenic message that we're saints and sinners at the same time.

 

[holo]

So you're telling me that if I believe in Him, that means I'm righteous, even if I do something He specifically told us not to do?

Yes. Because "He cannot deny Himself", and HE has declared you righteous because you believe, and He loved us while we were still sinners (note that the believer is NEVER referred to as a sinner).
Romans 3:21
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

However, if the Bible specifically tells you that you shouldn't murder, you don't need the Spirit to tell you that, because God already did.

If you actually need someone to tell you that you shouldn't murder, you're pretty wicked. And a child of God isn't wicked, but has access to a love which will FAR surpass the requirements of the law.
Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

 

[christwannabe]

gypsybella, i didnt take offense to your reply. rather i thank your for trying to undestand what i am saying. i agree with you, we are a child of God " i have been crucified with christ and i no longer live but christ lives in me, the life i live in the body i live by faith in the son of God who loved me and gave him self for me" and i totally agree with you that i m no longer a sinner because Jesus has broken the law of sin. i pertaining to sinner in the terms of the world, sinners: who sin. and yes in our christianity term, though we sin, we are no longer sinners because of Him. thank you for clearlifying things. and yes, same place, different direction, what i just said might not make sence since im bad at writing and dscribing, so to make it clear, i agree with what you said hundred percent.

 

[GypsyBella]

Puhh-raise tha LAWD!

I promise you that once the truth of your righteousness starts to dawn on you, you'll begin to live a life so full, so free, so clean, so fruitful that you couldn't dream about! It's going to beat all your efforts to the ground when you get to live the life GOD has prepared for you. But it takes time, because a lot of us have grown up hearing the schizophrenic message that we're saints and sinners at the same time.

holo, first of all, I like your little exclamation... I giggled until my face turned red when I saw that

second of all, I'm not even sure how this has gotten as far as it has. It seems that everyone here realized at one level or another that we don't get anywhere on our own so-called "righteousness". It also seems that we all agree that we should strive for perfection. It seems that people think that because I, or someone else, follow the Ten Commandments because Jesus told us to, that I am under some kind of bondage or something. This is not true! I do not follow them because I feel that it will be my righteousness... I KNOW the truth of my righteousness. I follow them because Jesus said that it would be the fruit of my love for Him (among many other things, obviously)!

I AM living the life God has prepared for me! I've been baptist, COG, Apostolic, AOG, Vineyard, and SDA. I've also visited to catholic churches, Presbyterian churches, Nazarene churches, Church of Christ churches, Universalism churches, Jewish synagogues... you name it, I've probably gone a time or two, if not more. I've heard everything from "we're saints and sinners at the same time" to "after you realize that Christ is living in you, you won't sin anymore, and if you do, you haven't reached the God-conciousness". The one thing I have learned, is that all the scripture has to fit together. You can't take bits and pieces and say, "this is what I believe", but then not be able to explain another scripture that seems to contradict your belief. This is why I don't subscribe to the belief that once you accept Christ, the Commandments are no longer in effect. The Holy Spirit WILL NOT contradict the Commandments of God.

And again, I guess I have to go back over the fact that the 10 Commandments are not part of the law of Moses. They are the eternal moral code that existed before Mt. Sinai.

 

[christwannabe]

i agree with gypsybella.