Why worry about the Ten Commandments, if you are disregarding the Sabbath?

[Caissie]

To clarify....when I said "Most religions get hung up on their doctrine" I do know that their are some in every "Christian" religion that focus on the weighter matters of the law.

 

[Oblio]

Tell them the story of Mary as she was brought to Jesus so that He would condem her as they wanted it to be. Then Jesus just bent down and wrote in the sand. It was not too long and the accusers had went.

Where do you get Mary out of the Scriptures ?? Or are you talking about the Western tradition (RCC IIRC) that equivocates St. Mary Magdelena with the woman caught in adultery ??

 

[Linux98]

Anyway, some Sabbatarians say would tell you that you can't work in your yard on Saturday, because that would be breaking the 4th commandment. Well, what if you enjoy working in the yard, and you consider enjoying God's creation a part of your communion with Him? Then it's not work, right?

I agree. Jesus specifically said the Sabbath was made for man. In addition, the pharisees were guilty of breaking the spirit of the law even though they were following the "letter" of the law. If you followed the letter and ignored the spirit you would come to a place where you refused to tie your shoes because you did not want to work on the Sabbath.

Many people do yard work as a hobby. Certainly, if you enjoy yard work you are free to do it on the Sabbath. The Spirit of the 4th is that we remember that Jesus did ALL the work for our salvation and that we cannot add to that work in any way. So once you live by the Spirit of the 4th you are pleasing God.

 

[mystery4]

Ah, but Jesus said a lot of things, like to gouge out your eye if it led you sin, and bless those you hate you and that if you call your brother a fool, you're guilty of hell. I, for one, won't be too worried about the sabbath as long as I break basically all the rules Jesus laid down. Jesus summed it up like this, "be perfect as your Father is perfect." To make it real simple, He gave two new(!) commandments - love God and love your neighbour.

Are we so good at loving each other that we can now take a break to argue about the law?

You who insist on keeping the 4th and the rest of the commandments and living according to law, is it because you love God so much?

Jesus didn't give two "new" commandments...
Lev 19:18; Deut 6:5; 11:1, 13; 13:3; 30:6; Josh 22:5; 23:11; Matt 22:36-40; Mark 12:28-34; Luke 10:25-28

There are also other references that mention to not wrong or be nasty to your neighbour:
Lev 19:13, 16, 17; 25:14; Prov 3:29; 24:28.

For us to be saved, all that is required is that we have a continual growing realtionship with Jesus, accepting His death and resurrection as our atoning sacrifice. He died for our sins so therefore we are saved by grace.

However my understanding of that grace is not that it gives us a licence that we can now do what we want because "God will forgive me". Instead, through gaining a relationship with Jesus we will want to do good things for and with Him. We will want to leave behind all things that remind us of our past sinful life and move on in and through Jesus to a life that best represents who and what God wants us to be, without the sinful nature. Satan then loses his grasp.

To my understanding, God has explicitly told us we are to keep the seventh day holy as a consecrated to Him. Because I have an established relationship with Jesus where I am continually growing and being strengthened by Him I choose to do as He has bidded me do because He knows what will best make me happy. I try to show others reasons why I do and encourage them through pray and Bible study to do the same because I know what benefits come out of it.

You can come up with all the arguments in the world as to why you cannot or will not keep the Sabbath as God commanded in the Bible. However it all comes back to what light God has given to you, your sincerity in wanting to find out truth and following God's way and how deep your relationship is with Jesus. Jesus said in John 14:15, 21-26 that those who have his commandments and follow them are those who love Him (paraphrased). Theres also more if you want to read all of John 14.

1 John also talks about God's love for us, our love for God, others and ourselves. It also mentions that if we love God we will follow His commandments. In all these things though, it is not the commandments that is the focus point. It is the love of God toward us that is. and all those in Jesus are the ones who can overcome.

Nothing we can do can earn our salvation, but it is because we are saved that we want to do good things. God loves everyone, regardless of what the do or do not do, or even if they do not know and love him. He will not condemn those who did not follow his commands if they were not aware of it. More or less, its our attitude of heart towards Him and learning of His truth that He judges as to whether or not we are saved.

Therefore I urge you to seriously reconsider the position you all are taking (doesn't matter which side of the "argument" you are on) and prayfully asking Jesus to allow the Holy Spirit to guide you in your relationship with Him and in His truth (the Bible).

 

[GypsyBella]

Your response does not include anything about new testament law. So my question still stands as valid.
Romans 4:15 which you quoted is part of a passage that points out that those who have the law and those who don't have the law are both heirs of the same promise (promise being the promise of salvation) through faith.
The passage in 1 John 3:4 isn't talking about the 10 commandments. If so then it would be impossible for any christian to break any of the 10 commandments when this verse is taken in context of verse 6. (It is believed that it is actually talking about the hold of sin on us is broken because of what Jesus did on the cross and that sin is actually talking about the anti-christ.)
In Romans7:7 Paul seems to be talking about his own experience. That is the law taught him right from wrong but he made the law to be so important that he forgot about God and worshipped the law instead.

What question still stands valid? Do you cover your head during prayer, or do you wear mixed blend clothing? I just answered your question by telling you that the ten commandments have nothing to do with the law of moses, so the answer is probably no. Christ was the ultimate sacrafice. He hung Moses' law on the cross.

As far as the first and last verse, they weren't trying to prove any points. They are just places in the Bible that describe what sin is. The second verse describes this too, but I want to go into a little more detail about that one.

Regarding 1John 3:4- So you're saying that if I murdered someone, and someone murdered me immediately afterward, that when I stood before Christ, he would say to me, "You died murdering someone, and breaking one of My commandments, but since you are "saved", you get to come to heaven anyway, because My death covered that sin."? 1John 3:6 says,"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning." That doesn't sound like a simple "he took the weight of our sins away" to me. Think of Abraham. He obviously wasn't "perfect", but God commended him for keeping His laws, commandments, and statutes. When Christ came, he taught "If you love me, keep My commandments". What do you think He meant by this? It looks pretty straightforward.

 

[GypsyBella]

Point taken. That reminds me......

I have a friend that is in jail. He told me that some S.D.A.s came and visited the jail to "witness". Before he said anything else, I cut him off and said..."I bet they talked about keeping the Sabbath". He confirmed that this was the main topic of the sermon.

I figured....These guys are in jail....probably a better commandment to preach to them would be, "thou shalt not steal", "thou shalt not murder", or "love thy neighbor".

Most religions get hung up on their doctrine and they do spend a lot of effort in convincing people that their religion is right that they do not perform the weightier matters of the law.

I'm sorry to hear this Caissie! It is unfortunate that so many SDA's will stand up and say, "You treat the 4th Commandment like it's less important than the rest!", but then, in situations like this, they are treating the rest of the Commandments as if they are not as important as the 4th! It's ludicrous! All ten are of equal importance. I think what most people don't realize, especially SDA's, is that the important thing isn't to worship on Saturday (we should do that every day), but to rest and commune with God on Saturday. It is also important to be in a church that teaches this. That is why I am in the SDA church. If I found a Sunday worship church that taught this, I would be more than happy to attend, if I didn't work on Sundays.

 

[rstrats]

Caissie,

re: "I bet they talked about keeping the Sabbath. He confirmed that this was the main topic of the sermon. I figured....These guys are in jail....probably a better commandment to preach to them would be, ‘thou shalt not steal’, ‘thou shalt not murder’, or ‘love thy neighbor’. "

My guess is that "these guys" pretty much know that they should not steal, and murder, but they might not be aware of the requirement to observe the seventh day.

 

[GypsyBella]

My guess is that "these guys" pretty much know that they should not steal, and murder, but they might not be aware of the requirement to observe the seventh day.

I do agree with you here, but only to a degree. They may not be aware that it is a commandment to observe the Sabbath... however, what good is preaching the Sabbath going to do for them, if you don't first address their situation? If they haven't accepted Christ, why would they accept the 4th Commandment? Christ called men by speaking to them in ways that were understood by who he was speaking to i.e. when He was speaking to fisherman, he spoke of fishing. If I were trying to reach a murderer in a prison, the Sabbath wouldn't be the first thing I would be discussing with him...

 

[Linux98]

Regarding 1John 3:4- So you're saying that if I murdered someone, and someone murdered me immediately afterward, that when I stood before Christ, he would say to me, "You died murdering someone, and breaking one of My commandments, but since you are "saved", you get to come to heaven anyway, because My death covered that sin."?

See, this is a question that should be answered by understanding the Sabbath. The reason you observe the Sabbath is to remember that Christ did the work. As soon as you start intertwining Salvation with YOUR works you begin to break the Spirit of the 4th commandment.

Your salvation is not by what you do, it is by what He already did. If you observe the Sabbath you should consider the spirit of the law. What is the Christian really remembering by observing the Sabbath: we do not work because he did ALL the work.

 

[rstrats]

GypsyBella,

re: "I do agree with you here, but only to a degree. They may not be aware that it is a commandment to observe the Sabbath... however, what good is preaching the Sabbath going to do for them, if you don't first address their situation? "

The point of the quote by Caissie that I referenced seemed to be that it made more sense to preach about the commandments against murder and stealing, than to preach about the keeping of the seventh day. I was merely commenting on that specific issue.

 

[GypsyBella]

See, this is a question that should be answered by understanding the Sabbath. The reason you observe the Sabbath is to remember that Christ did the work. As soon as you start intertwining Salvation with YOUR works you begin to break the Spirit of the 4th commandment.

Your salvation is not by what you do, it is by what He already did. If you observe the Sabbath you should consider the spirit of the law. What is the Christian really remembering by observing the Sabbath: we do not work because he did ALL the work.

What you're saying makes perfect sense. I'm not sure you understand exactly what my belief is, because you seem to have it a little backward. I do not believe that anything that I do saves me. My own righteousness is but a filthy rag. My salvation is in Christ alone, and Him crucified. I heed the Commandments, including the 4th, because He saved me, and because the Bible tells me that if I am in Christ, I can not continue in sin. Again, "If you love Me, keep my commandments".

As far as the Spirit of the Commandments, I believe that they are spiritual as well as physical. For example, you are just as guilty for purposely giving someone a false teaching and risking sending that person to hell, as you are for physically murdering someone.

 

[GypsyBella]

GypsyBella,

snip

The point of the quote by Caissie that I referenced seemed to be that it made more sense to preach about the commandments against murder and stealing, than to preach about the keeping of the seventh day. I was merely commenting on that specific issue.

Ah... gotcha... sorry

 

[Cliff2]

Where do you get Mary out of the Scriptures ?? Or are you talking about the Western tradition (RCC IIRC) that equivocates St. Mary Magdelena with the woman caught in adultery ??

John 8:3-11

3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,


4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

John 12:1-8



1Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

2There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.

3Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.

4Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,

5Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?

6This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

7Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. 8For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.

I believe this to be the same Mary that as caught in adultery as the same person who annointed the feet of Jesus. Also the same Mary who came to the garden tomb.

John 20:11-18

11But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,


12And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

13And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my LORD, and I know not where they have laid him.

14And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.

15Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.

16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. 18Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

 

[TheDag]

What question still stands valid? Do you cover your head during prayer, or do you wear mixed blend clothing? I just answered your question by telling you that the ten commandments have nothing to do with the law of moses, so the answer is probably no. Christ was the ultimate sacrafice. He hung Moses' law on the cross.

I'm talking about commands in the bible in the new testament AFTER the death of Jesus on the cross. That is what you haven't addressed hence my comment

Your response does not include anything about new testament law

1John 3:6 says,"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning." That doesn't sound like a simple "he took the weight of our sins away" to me. Think of Abraham. He obviously wasn't "perfect", but God commended him for keeping His laws, commandments, and statutes. When Christ came, he taught "If you love me, keep My commandments". What do you think He meant by this? It looks pretty straightforward.

Actually no what you say isn't straight forward to me. On the one hand you seem to say if we sin then we're obviously not a christian (If this isn't what your saying then I'm not sure what your point is). Then you also say Abraham was saved even though he wasn't perfect. These two views you put forward seem to be opposites. Also remember abraham is under the old covenant not the new so that does also make a difference (please note I'm not saying to ignore the old testament here). Our sin makes no difference as to if we go to heaven or not. As you said we were told that if we love God then we should keep his commandments. Of course this is impossible to do because as you quoted Our best efforts are like filthy rags. Naturally I don't believe (and never have said) that this means we can sin all we like. To believe this would mean I would have to believe repentance is not neccesary for forgiveness and that would clearly go against the bible.

 

[Linux98]

I'm not sure you understand exactly what my belief is, because you seem to have it a little backward. I do not believe that anything that I do saves me.

Ok, I thought when you made the murder comment that you thought your salvation depended on works. But the quote above shows that isn't the case.

 

[GypsyBella]

Actually no what you say isn't straight forward to me. On the one hand you seem to say if we sin then we're obviously not a christian (If this isn't what your saying then I'm not sure what your point is). Then you also say Abraham was saved even though he wasn't perfect. These two views you put forward seem to be opposites. Also remember abraham is under the old covenant not the new so that does also make a difference (please note I'm not saying to ignore the old testament here). Our sin makes no difference as to if we go to heaven or not. As you said we were told that if we love God then we should keep his commandments. Of course this is impossible to do because as you quoted Our best efforts are like filthy rags. Naturally I don't believe (and never have said) that this means we can sin all we like. To believe this would mean I would have to believe repentance is not neccesary for forgiveness and that would clearly go against the bible.

I'm terribly sorry. It seems I am not very good at covering all my points.

Please make note first and foremost that, as we all believe, salvation is through Christ alone. I don't believe it is impossible to keep all of the Commandments. With Christ living in us, and Him forming us into what He wants us to be, we should be able to! Our best efforts may be humble... God wants those efforts! He does not see an effort that is out of a love for Him as filthy. What is filthy is when we seek a righteousness through these efforts without His Son.

I suppose I don't understand how observing the commandments out of love for Jesus is considered "under the law". It is not done out of fear or guilt, but out of love.

Abraham wasn't under the old covenant... he was before the old covenant. The point I was trying to make there, was that God obviously had a moral code long before He wrote it in stone on Mt. Sinai.

So if we accept Jesus as LORD and SAVIOR, then should we not TRY to keep the commandments? I mean, out of all of the commandments, doesn't it seem like the 4th is the easiest to keep? After all, it was "made for man"!

 

[Cliff2]

I'm terribly sorry. It seems I am not very good at covering all my points.

Please make note first and foremost that, as we all believe, salvation is through Christ alone. I don't believe it is impossible to keep all of the Commandments. With Christ living in us, and Him forming us into what He wants us to be, we should be able to! Our best efforts may be humble... God wants those efforts! He does not see an effort that is out of a love for Him as filthy. What is filthy is when we seek a righteousness through these efforts without His Son.

I suppose I don't understand how observing the commandments out of love for Jesus is considered "under the law". It is not done out of fear or guilt, but out of love.

Abraham wasn't under the old covenant... he was before the old covenant. The point I was trying to make there, was that God obviously had a moral code long before He wrote it in stone on Mt. Sinai.

So if we accept Jesus as LORD and SAVIOR, then should we not TRY to keep the commandments? I mean, out of all of the commandments, doesn't it seem like the 4th is the easiest to keep? After all, it was "made for man"!

You have made some good points.

Not only the 4th one should be the easiest but it is the one God said we should "Remember" it.

What we are told to "Remember", most want to forget it.

 

[GypsyBella]

I'm talking about commands in the bible in the new testament AFTER the death of Jesus on the cross. That is what you haven't addressed hence my comment

I'm sorry TheDag... I looked back through our posts and couldn't find a specific question that you asked about NT law... could you refresh me?

*feels a little silly*

 

[Oblio]

I believe this to be the same Mary that as caught in adultery as the same person who annointed the feet of Jesus. Also the same Mary who came to the garden tomb.

I understand that you believe this, but there is no Scriptural proof of this assertion. IIRC, it originated in the Roman Catholic Church (though it may not be doctrine, I am open to correction by my RC friends) and hence was retained by the Protestants. The Orthodox Church has no such belief.

 

[Oblio]

The Orthodox Church has no such belief.

BTW, I was refering to the belief that she was the adulteress, she was obviously at the tomb. She was also the Mary that had seven demons cast out by Christ.