Commandments of man or the commandments of God

[JSRG]

There’s no such thing.




Link me to it then.



It apparently is, since the paper you cited was from a university known as a bastion of liberalism within the RCC, due to its associations with the Jesuits.

Regarding the question of an imprimatur for the work, upon some research, I am not so sure if the book ever received an imprimatur.

So, for some background. Samuele Bacchiocchi, again, was a Seventh Day Adventist who attended Pontifical Gregorian University, being the first non-Catholic to ever do so. As his dissertation for graduation, he wrote a wrote on the change of Sabbath to Sunday. This dissertation was later revised into a book called From Sabbath to Sunday, and it is alleged it received an imprimatur from the Catholic Church, or at least the university he graduated from. How much an imprimatur is worth can be exaggerated (it inherently carries with it no more than the authority of the specific person or persons who grants it), but the question is: Did it receive one?

Now, I for quite a while assumed that this was given an imprimatur, but not a nihil obstat, on the grounds that... well, from what I remember when I looked at it (I got a copy temporarily quite a while ago because I was trying to look into something from it), the book said there was an imprimatur at the start, but no mention of a nihil obstat. But it seems this might have been inaccurate, or at least misleading. So about two decades ago there arose a controversy about whether some of Bacchiocchi's claims about himself and his work were valid, such as whether he actually graduated from the university or received a gold medal from the pope, which got compounded by someone from the university claiming some of his claims were false. But then it turns out some of that person's claims weren't accurate. Some information about this can be found in this series of posts here. On the specific question of the imprimatur, see particularly this one and this one; also see the comments on this post (alluded to in the prior links). This last link should automatically bring you to the more relevant part, but the important things begin on comment #78 and go to #95). To be fair, these are not from the most friendly of witnesses towards Bacchiocchi, though their points do seem valid to me (and they do note how a bunch of the accusations towards Bacchiocchi were false).

I'll try to summarize things. As noted, Bacchiocchi got cleared of a lot of the accusations, but most of them don't concern us, and the one that does is where things get more murky, and it's about the imprimatur. Based on the information from those posts, and reading Bacchiocchi's defenses (linked to from the above post), it looks to me like his book From Sabbath to Sunday never got any imprimatur. What got an imprimatur--though it seems it might have been an imprimi potest from the university rather than an more formal imprimatur--was an abridged version of his dissertation. This imprimatur (or imprimi potest, whichever it was) of a major portion of the dissertation was a requirement for graduation. This abridged version of the dissertation was called "Anti-Judaism and the Origin of Sunday". Apparently to get the imprimi potest, he had to get the university to do it, because his local bishop declined to give his work an imprimatur (it is not clear to me whether this refusal was for the abridged or unabridged version of his dissertation).

At any rate, the university give imprimi potest to "Anti-Judaism and the Origin of Sunday". Bacchiocchi then wrote "From Sabbath to Sunday", based on his dissertation, and published that. The problem is, whatever weight the original imprimi potest for "Anti-Judaism and the Origin of Sunday" could have had did not apply to this one, it being a different work. Despite this, it was printed with the imprimi potest of the original work at the start of the book, albeit it now said "imprimatur". I do not think this was done deliberately dishonestly by Bacchiocchi--these distinctions would no doubt be confusing to a non-Catholic, and by his account it seems his professor led him to think a new imprimatur wasn't necessary for his work--but at the end of the day, it means an imprimi potest for one work is misleadingly being applied as an imprimatur to a separate, albeit related, work.

I do not have copies of them available to me right now (the closest library that has From Sabbath to Sunday is an hour away, and the closest that has Anti-Judaism and the Origin of Sunday is even farther), so I cannot try to gauge how much was different between these works, and thus if perhaps "Anti-Judaism and the Origin of Sunday" was much more tempered in its statements, which could have gotten it the permission. But at any rate, an imprimi potest on one work does not automatically transfer to another one.

For the record, Bacchiocchi appears to not claim that the imprimatur (if it was that rather than an imprimi potest) was an actual sanction of the church, at least if the e-mail quoted from here is legitimate (I obviously have no way to verify the validity of a private e-mail quote):

Regarding the imprimatur, he [Ghirlanda] explains that the approval that I received from granted by the Gregorian University, not by the Catholic church at large.

So based on the information I can gather, it appears that it is highly misleading to claim that Bacchiocchi's "From Sabbath to Sunday" was ever granted any kind of imprimatur by the Catholic Church. The imprimi potest or imprimatur (whichever it was) was granted by the university. Furthermore, this did not apply to "From Sabbath to Sunday", but rather an earlier, though similar, work called "Anti-Judaism and the Origin of Sunday".

As for whether Bacchiocchi's arguments in From Sabbath to Sunday are good or not, I can't say, having again no present access to the work. I read a little of it a while ago--someone cited it for something so I got a copy from a library loan in order to look at that specific thing--but not enough to try to give anything close to a full appraisal of it. But my interest is not in whether the work is well argued or persuasive, but simply whether it had an imprimatur--which, for the reasons noted above, it does not appear it did.

 

[tall73]

Regarding the question of an imprimatur for the work, upon some research, I am not so sure if the book ever received an imprimatur.

I have a digital copy in my library from when he distributed them for a fee. This is for:

FROM SABBATH to SUNDAY
A Historical Investigation of the Rise of Sunday Observance
in Early Christianity

Here is the info in that version:

 

[JSRG]

I have a digital copy in my library from when he distributed them for a fee. This is for:

FROM SABBATH to SUNDAY
A Historical Investigation of the Rise of Sunday Observance
in Early Christianity

Here is the info in that version:

View attachment 367147

Well, yes, I saw that when I looked at the book a while ago. As I said, "from what I remember when I looked at it (I got a copy temporarily quite a while ago because I was trying to look into something from it), the book said there was an imprimatur at the start, but no mention of a nihil obstat. But it seems this might have been inaccurate, or at least misleading". And then I spent the rest of my post talking about why its claim to have an imprimatur to be inaccurate/misleading. Namely, the fact it is questionable whether this was a bona fide imprimatur rather than an imprimi potest, and more importantly, the fact this imprimatur or imprimi potest (whichever it was) appears to have been actually granted for an earlier (though similar) work of his, and then wrongfully applied to this new work. This is why you see "1974" and "1975" even though From Sabbath to Sunday was published in 1977--they were in reference to the other work that was published in 1975.

 

[tall73]

As for whether Bacchiocchi's arguments in From Sabbath to Sunday are good or not, I can't say, having again no present access to the work.

I would say the characterization of the arguments given earlier is largely correct, though it has been a while since I looked at the text in full.

He thought Sunday came about later than the apostles, but recognized from the early church father quotes (Justin Martry, etc.) that it was established long before Constantine, etc. He was criticized by some in the church for that take. But the presence of the sources make it kind of obvious. Bacchiocchi still held to Sabbath observance of course, and his work argued for a later development than the apostles so most Adventists took it as a helpful work.

But, he indicates a much different take than most Adventists in one element of his interpretation of Colossians 2. He included the weekly Sabbath, due to the perception of a progression of yearly, monthly, weekly in the appointed times in the list.

This eventually led to more emphasis on meaning in the feasts in some of his works as well.

The Sabbath in Colossians 2:16. The sacred times prescribed by the false teachers are referred to as “a festival or a new moon or a sabbath–eortes he neomenia he sabbaton” (2:16). The unanimous consensus of commentators is that these three words represent a logical and progressive sequence (annual, monthly and weekly) as well as an exhaustive enumeration of the sacred times. This view is validated by the occurrence of these terms, in similar or reverse sequence, five times in the Septuagint and​

several times in other literature. There is, however, an exceptional occurrence in Isaiah 1:13-14 where the “new moon” is found at the beginning of the enumeration rather than in the middle, but an exception does not invalidate a common usage.​

​

The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary interprets the “sabbaton–sabbath days” as a reference to the annual ceremonial sabbaths Appendix: Paul and the Law 339 and not to the weekly Sabbath (Lev. 23-6-8, 15, 16, 21, 24, 25, 27, 28, 37,38). It is a fact that both the Sabbath and the Day of Atonement in Hebrew are designated by the compound expression shabbath shabbathon, meaning “a sabbath of solemn rest” (Ex. 31:15; 35:2; Lev. 23:3,32; 16:31). But this phrase is rendered in the Septuagint by the compound Greek expression “sabbata sabbaton” which is different from the simple “sabbaton” found in Colossians 2:16. It is therefore linguistically impossible to interpret the latter as a reference to the Day of Atonement or to any other ceremonial sabbaths, since these are never designated simply as “sabbata.”​

​

The cited commentary rests its interpretation, however, not on the grammatical and linguistic use of the word “sabbaton” but rather on a theological interpretation of the Sabbath as related to ‘‘shadow in Colossians 2:17. It is argued that “the weekly Sabbath is a memorial of an event at the beginning of earth’s history... hence the “sabbath days” Paul declares to be shadows pointing to Christ cannot refer to the weekly Sabbath.., but must indicate the ceremonial rest days that reach their realization in Christ and His Kingdom.” To determine the meaning of a word exclusively by theological as-sumptions, rather than by linguistic or contextual evidences, is against the canons of Biblical hermeneutics. Moreover even the theological interpretation which the Adventist commentary gives to the Sabbath is hard to justify, since we have seen that the Sabbath can legitimately be regarded as the “shadow” or fitting symbol of the present and future blessing of salvation.​

​

​

 

[tall73]

This is why you see "1974" and "1975" even though From Sabbath to Sunday was published in 1977--they were in reference to the other work that was published in 1975.

Indeed it does indicate the earlier years. The point was to show what his self-published version looks like.

 

[tall73]

What is the Catholic teaching TODAY? When you include quotes from the 1800's, it makes me wonder why there are none from the 2000's? There may be current publications mirroring what concerns you, so why not highlight them?

I think you are concerned about the institutional structure of the Catholic church, while not focusing on what a modern individual Catholic believer thinks and believes. There may be value to this, but one must be careful to not discard the "baby and the bathwater."

In my own SDA religion, someone might say to me, Mr. Uriah Smith said this or that in the 1800's. But my response would be that they are dead and buried, and I'm not bound to something someone else said before. I am concerned with what I read in the Bible today and what's going on in my community today. Likewise, a modern Catholic should not be bound to what some Catholic writer wrote in the past -- provided its not a foundation for their current belief.

If there are CURRENT errors to be exposed, fine. But it seems weak to use examples from over a century ago.

KT

Dies Domini would be a more authoritative, and more recent work, by the pope, in 1998.

Dies Domini (May 31, 1998) | John Paul II

www.vatican.va

 

[KevinT]

Dies Domini would be a more authoritative, and more recent work, by the pope, in 1998.

Dies Domini (May 31, 1998) | John Paul II

www.vatican.va

This is an interesting read. I have had to skim parts of it due to its length. A couple of parts caught my eye:
From the Sabbath to Sunday


18. Because the Third Commandment depends upon the remembrance of God's saving works and because Christians saw the definitive time inaugurated by Christ as a new beginning, they made the first day after the Sabbath a festive day, for that was the day on which the Lord rose from the dead. (emphasis added)

...

62. It is the duty of Christians therefore to remember that, although the practices of the Jewish Sabbath are gone, surpassed as they are by the "fulfilment" which Sunday brings, the underlying reasons for keeping "the Lord's Day" holy — inscribed solemnly in the Ten Commandments — remain valid, though they need to be reinterpreted in the light of the theology and spirituality of Sunday: "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. Six days you shall labour, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. Then you shall do no work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your servant, or your maid, or your ox, or your ass, or any of your beasts, or the foreigner within your gates, that your servant and maid may rest as well as you. You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God commanded that you keep the Sabbath day" (Dt 5:12-15). Here the Sabbath observance is closely linked with the liberation which God accomplished for his people.


Would Catholic believers on this forum consider this work to be authoritative? And if this is just pastoral rather than authoritative writing, then does it go contrary to Catholic doctrine?

Best wishes,
Kevin

 

[tall73]

Would Catholic believers on this forum consider this work to be authoritative? And if this is just pastoral rather than authoritative writing, then does it go contrary to Catholic doctrine?

Best wishes,
Kevin

Unfortunately, you have not had any Catholic members weigh in yet on this point.

Apostolic letters are not the most authoritative type of papal document, per my limited understanding, but the weighing of authority can vary on those types, and that is certainly beyond my expertise. This is clearly doctrinal, as well as pastoral (calling for observance).

Another place to look is the official Catechism of the church on this point. That link will take you to the section on the third (by Catholic reckoning) commandment, which is the Sabbath, if you click through the various parts of it.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

@chevyontheriver

Do you have any information on the various types of papal documents, and other ecclesial documents in regards to authority, etc.?

 

[JSRG]

I am not personally familiar with the texts you mention above, but my perception is that they are old documents. I think an underlying theme of what you are saying is that Catholic teaching has said a thing in the past, so therefore it is a concern now. But is this logically sound?

What is the Catholic teaching TODAY? When you include quotes from the 1800's, it makes me wonder why there are none from the 2000's? There may be current publications mirroring what concerns you, so why not highlight them?

I think you are concerned about the institutional structure of the Catholic church, while not focusing on what a modern individual Catholic believer thinks and believes. There may be value to this, but one must be careful to not discard the "baby and the bathwater."

In my own SDA religion, someone might say to me, Mr. Uriah Smith said this or that in the 1800's. But my response would be that they are dead and buried, and I'm not bound to something someone else said before. I am concerned with what I read in the Bible today and what's going on in my community today. Likewise, a modern Catholic should not be bound to what some Catholic writer wrote in the past -- provided its not a foundation for their current belief.

If there are CURRENT errors to be exposed, fine. But it seems weak to use examples from over a century ago.

KT

If you're looking for "what is the Catholic teaching today", your best bet would probably be the Catechism of the Catholic Church. There's a few bits where the translation into English is a little iffy, but if one wants a (relatively) compact summary of modern Catholic thought on a particular issue--which at the end of each section provides an even more compact "in brief" section--I'm not sure there's any better source.

On the specific Sabbath/Sunday issue, that's covered in Part 3 Section 2 Chapter 1 Article 3 (wow, that's a lot of subsections), or specifically numbers 2168-2195. Rather annoyingly, this is split into several pages, but one can find the applicable portions on these four pages (the last page is the "in brief" section, which is summary of the preceding three, if one wants a quick summary).

 

[KevinT]

If you're looking for "what is the Catholic teaching today", your best bet would probably be the Catechism of the Catholic Church. There's a few bits where the translation into English is a little iffy, but if one wants a (relatively) compact summary of modern Catholic thought on a particular issue--which at the end of each section provides an even more compact "in brief" section--I'm not sure there's any better source.

On the specific Sabbath/Sunday issue, that's covered in Part 3 Section 2 Chapter 1 Article 3 (wow, that's a lot of subsections), or specifically numbers 2168-2195. Rather annoyingly, this is split into several pages, but one can find the applicable portions on these four pages (the last page is the "in brief" section, which is summary of the preceding three, if one wants a quick summary).

Thank you @JSRG This was a very helpful link directly to the correct information.

I significantly disagree with the logic and conclusions written there, but I appreciate being able to read it directly for myself.

Best wishes,

KT

 

[Amo2]

The following quotes are from the APOSTOLIC LETTER DIES DOMINI by John Paul II, emphasis is mine.

Chap. 1

8.…………The People of God are called to enter into this same rest by persevering in Christ's example of filial obedience (cf. Heb 4:3-16). In order to grasp fully the meaning of Sunday, therefore, we must re-read the great story of creation and deepen our understanding of the theology of the "Sabbath".

13. The Sabbath precept, which in the first Covenant prepares for the Sunday of the new and eternal Covenant, is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why, unlike many other precepts, it is set not within the context of strictly cultic stipulations but within the Decalogue, the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of the moral life inscribed on the human heart.

14. In the first place, therefore, Sunday is the day of rest because it is the day "blessed" by God and "made holy" by him, set apart from the other days to be, among all of them, "the Lord's Day".

18.………….In the light of this mystery, the meaning of the Old Testament precept concerning the Lord's Day is recovered, perfected and fully revealed in the glory which shines on the face of the Risen Christ (cf. 2 Cor 4:6). We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath", from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi!

Chap.2

23. It was this newness which the catechesis of the first centuries stressed as it sought to show the prominence of Sunday relative to the Jewish Sabbath. It was on the Sabbath that the Jewish people had to gather in the synagogue and to rest in the way prescribed by the Law. The Apostles, and in particular Saint Paul, continued initially to attend the synagogue so that there they might proclaim Jesus Christ, commenting upon "the words of the prophets which are read every Sabbath" (Acts 13:27). Some communities observed the Sabbath while also celebrating Sunday. Soon, however, the two days began to be distinguished ever more clearly, in reaction chiefly to the insistence of those Christians whose origins in Judaism made them inclined to maintain the obligation of the old Law.

Chap.4

59.……………….More than a "replacement" for the Sabbath, therefore, Sunday is its fulfilment, and in a certain sense its extension and full expression in the ordered unfolding of the history of salvation, which reaches its culmination in Christ.

62. It is the duty of Christians therefore to remember that, although the practices of the Jewish Sabbath are gone, surpassed as they are by the "fulfilment" which Sunday brings, the underlying reasons for keeping "the Lord's Day" holy — inscribed solemnly in the Ten Commandments — remain valid, though they need to be reinterpreted in the light of the theology and spirituality of Sunday: "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. Six days you shall labour, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. Then you shall do no work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your servant, or your maid, or your ox, or your ass, or any of your beasts, or the foreigner within your gates, that your servant and maid may rest as well as you. You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God commanded that you keep the Sabbath day" (Dt 5:12-15). Here the Sabbath observance is closely linked with the liberation which God accomplished for his people.


63. Christ came to accomplish a new "exodus", to restore freedom to the oppressed. He performed many healings on the Sabbath (cf. Mt 12:9-14 and parallels), certainly not to violate the Lord's Day, but to reveal its full meaning: "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mk 2:27). Opposing the excessively legalistic interpretation of some of his contemporaries, and developing the true meaning of the biblical Sabbath, Jesus, as "Lord of the Sabbath" (Mk 2:28), restores to the Sabbath observance its liberating character, carefully safeguarding the rights of God and the rights of man. This is why Christians, called as they are to proclaim the liberation won by the blood of Christ, felt that they had the authority to transfer the meaning of the Sabbath to the day of the Resurrection. The Passover of Christ has in fact liberated man from a slavery more radical than any weighing upon an oppressed people — the slavery of sin, which alienates man from God, and alienates man from himself and from others, constantly sowing within history the seeds of evil and violence.

The emphasis in the last quote pretty much says it all. Certain Christians felt they had the authority to change God's Sabbath day, to another day of their own choosing. Others did not. Today we have the same difference of opinion. Unfortunately a great many Sunday keepers have also felt that they have the right to mandate their chosen Sabbath day to be observed by all within many different nations. Producing one Sunday law after another, after another throughout history, since Constantine. A recorded history of which up until 1888, may be viewed at the following link -

A critical history of Sunday legislation from 321 to 1888 A. D. : Lewis, Abram Herbert, 1836-1908 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The metadata below describe the original scanning. Follow the All Files: HTTP link in the View the book box to the left to find XML files that contain more...

archive.org

Of course there have been, and continue to be, many more Sunday laws since that time. As Roman Catholics are instructed to seek to establish to this very day. The following is from the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

2186 Those Christians who have leisure should be mindful of their brethren who have the same needs and the same rights, yet cannot rest from work because of poverty and misery. Sunday is traditionally consecrated by Christian piety to good works and humble service of the sick, the infirm, and the elderly. Christians will also sanctify Sunday by devoting time and care to their families and relatives, often difficult to do on other days of the week. Sunday is a time for reflection, silence, cultivation of the mind, and meditation which furthers the growth of the Christian interior life.

2187 Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort. Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day. Traditional activities (sport, restaurants, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require some people to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set aside sufficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful will see to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes associated with popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints, public authorities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine worship. Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees.

2188 In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on Sunday, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this "festal gathering," this "assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven."[125]

One difference between seventh day and first day sabbath observers is regarding sanctification. We have the testimony from holy scripture, that God Himself sanctified the seventh day, which He called His sabbath many times over therein. While it is the duty of first day observers, to sanctify Sunday by their observance and or actions on that day.

Exo 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

The more aggressive attributes of the conflicting views between these two differing faiths which began with Constantines first Sunday law, grew over time. The following is an example.

The Synod of Laodicea - 343-381 A.D. - furnishes a decree which is quoted by many: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [Sabbatum is always used for the Sabbath and is translated Saturday in the English edition of Hefele], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's-day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing they shall be shut out from Christ. (Canon 29, Hefele, Vol. 2, p. 316.)

A view which obviously grew more volatile over time as observed in the following quote.

Pope Gregory I (AD 590-604) said :

"Gregory, bishop by the grace of God to his well-beloved sons, the Roman citizens: It has come to me that certain men of perverse spirit have disseminated among you things depraved and opposed to the holy faith, so that they forbid anything to be done on the day of the Sabbath. What shall I call them except preachers of anti-Christ?." Epistles of Gregory I, b.13, epist.1, found in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers.

Many seventh day sabbath keepers over time, have also identified the Popes of Rome and or the Roman Catholic system as anti-Christ as well. Citing the very fact of the attempted change of God's Sabbath from one day to another, as a sign supporting this accusation. Connecting it to the following scriptures of the book of Daniel.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

And so the controversy between these two chosen days of faith, has continued to this very day. According to the last verses in the quote above, God will certainly sort this issue along with all others out, at our Lords second coming.

1 Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2 Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[GaryMac]

This thread is to discuss the commandments of man versus the commandments of God. This thread is not meant to be a personal attack on anyone as there are Christians in all churches living up to the light they have and this discussion is about institutions, not individuals.

In Daniel it was prophesied that a government would change God's times and laws

Dan 7:25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.

There is only one law that is both a time (every seventh day Sabbath Exo 20:10) and is a law (4th commandment Exo 20:8-11) and it was changed not by God.


Do we see this in history?

Yes, the Catholic church takes credit for this change

Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
—Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

The change happened a long time ago in the council of Laodicea in 364 AD

The Seven Ecumenical Councils — Philip Schaff
Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.

This is very similar to the decree that went out to Daniel and his three friends that went against one of God's commandments - God told us to rest on the seventh day, this is a decree to work on God's holy Sabbath, the opposite of what God commanded.

Pope Leo ratified the Council of Laodicea at the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD

View attachment 367114

I know a national Sunday law has been in the works for a while and Trump has surrounded himself with people who want to tear down the separation of church and state and is it a coincidence the new pope choose to be called pope Leo- I do not think so, I believe prophecy is fulfilling before our eyes.

God's Ten Commandments was written personally by God and spoken by God the Creator of everything and He promised He would not alter the words of His covenant Exo 34:28 Psa 89:34 not a jot or tittle Mat 5:18 it is His own personal Testimony. Exo 31:18 Who could possibly claim they have more Authority than God Himself?

The pope claims to be the vicar of Christ on earth, but Jesus said:

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
And He is the only Mediator needed
1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

He also said His kingdom is not of this world

John 18:38 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world; if My kingdom were of this world, My attendants would fight that I might not be betrayed to the Jews. But now My kingdom is not from here."

And there is much talk about the antichrist in the last days. The word antichrist also means in place of Christ.

Only God can forgive our sins because His blood is what paid the penalty of our sins but the Catholic church teaches they can forgive sins

Volume 12 The Catholic Encyclopedia, Knights Of Columbus Special Edition 1913 : Knights of Columbus. Catholic Truth Committee : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Volume 01 The Catholic Encyclopedia, Knights of Columbus Special Edition 1913 Volume 02 The Catholic Encyclopedia, Knights of Columbus Special Edition...

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The Roman Catholic church teaches they are above God's Word and above the Testimony of God by changing God's Law

Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God... The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.'
—Catholic Record, September 1, 1923.

God tells us His Word is a light to our path

Psa 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.

The Catholic church teaches tradition, not God's Word is what we are to follow

Tradition, not Scripture, is the rock on which the church of Jesus Christ is built.
—Adrien Nampon, Catholic Doctrine as Defined by the Council of Trent, p. 157

God said no one can modify His Word
Deu 4:2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Pro 30:6 Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

The Catholic church teaches they can modify it

The Pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret even divine law". The pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts a vicegerent of God upon earth
—Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, art. Papa, II, Vol. VI, p. 29.


In the end we will be in two groups, those who have the mark of the beast and those who are sealed by God. The Sabbath contains God's seal.

A seal, as illustrated in Scripture, authenticates authority and ownership. In the book of Esther, King Ahasuerus’s seal—comprising his name, title, and territory—validated his decrees, rendering them irrevocable (Esther 8:8-10).
Similarly, God’s seal in Scripture carries His divine authority. The fourth commandment, embedded in the Decalogue, uniquely contains all three elements of a legal seal:
1. Name: “The Lord your God” (Exodus 20:10).
2. Title: “Maker” or Creator (Exodus 20:11).
3. Territory: “Heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them” (Exodus 20:11) .
This alignment identifies the Sabbath commandment as God’s seal, authenticating His law and sovereignty. Unlike other commandments, the Sabbath explicitly declares His creatorship, making it the “signature of the Omnipotent” .

The Catholic church claims the change in the Sabbath is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority essentially over God's authority since they changed God's commandments when He promised He would not Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18

Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act. And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.
—C. F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons, in answer to a letter regarding the change of the Sabbath, November 11, 1895.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Compared to the antidote which is in the next verse

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Is this what we were warned about in Revelation? Where is the commandment to keep Sunday holy- where did God sanctify Sunday? He didn't, it is a man-made tradition leading people away from being faithful to God's commandments.

We are told whoever we obey is who we serve. Ron 6:16

Rome says this:

It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

God said:

Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

It comes down to our test of loyalty and who we are going to obey. Shall we obey God the Creator of everyone and the only way we are saved, or follow what has been handed down to us over the centuries, the commandments of man.

Jesus answered this question, but will we listen to Him? Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13

Mar 7:7 AND IN VAIN THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.'

Mat 15:3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'; and, 'HE WHO CURSES FATHER OR MOTHER, LET HIM BE PUT TO DEATH.'
Mat 15:5 But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"—
Mat 15:6 then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
Mat 15:7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
Mat 15:8 'THESE PEOPLE DRAW NEAR TO ME WITH THEIR MOUTH, AND HONOR ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR FROM ME.
Mat 15:9 AND IN VAIN THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.' "

Every day is a sabbath for we who has the God of it as our own disposition. We worship the God of Who simply is Love because it is who we become in is same image that He creates man to be of His same Spirit which is Love. Most take one day a week and work for God sitting in a pew then take the other 6 days off for themselves.

Those who are of God and has His same disposition of mind and walk as He walks in it it is a 24-7 venture not one day a week to worship a god they they cant even relate only go only by these laws to govern their gods instead of being like the God of Spirit of is Love that the God of heaven is. It is who we are not what we try and be as noble before man by following some law for sabbath.

You can go to a church once a week for your whole life and never know the God of it to be in His same image of Love and walk in it as He walks in it with the same signs follow you.

And the day that you do repent from the was for some law, Jesus said in John 16:23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

In that I do not need mans rituals spawned by some law, it is who I became just as Jesus became in Matt 3:16 with that same renewing of mind that he received from Go Himself, And clarified that renewing as ye must be born again yourself with that same renewing.

And Yes, I take on day off a week from all my works, and I usually go and play golf or go fishing, but that does not mean I vacate the ways of God for He is with me 24-7, it is who I am Spiritually and cannot be separated from Him at all. Most only work for their gods for an hour or two one day a week and take of the other 6 days offer theirselves, and these never has met the God of Love to know His heaven. Not even Jesus could escape that fact proven in Matt 3:16 when he to was a one day a week church goer, and was even rabbi in it until God kicked him out of those religious laws and opened in that man who He is and all of His heaven in that man, and does the very same today in all who will let Him.

After Matt 3:16 he was a sabbath breaker and accused of blaspheme for doing so by those religious folk. Crucified him for it.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Every day is a sabbath for we who has the God of it as our own disposition. We worship the God of Who simply is Love because it is who we become in is same image that He creates man to be of His same Spirit which is Love. Most take one day a week and work for God sitting in a pew then take the other 6 days off for themselves.
Those who are of God and has His same disposition of mind and walk as He walks in it it is a 24-7 venture not one day a week to worship a god they they cant even relate only go only by these laws to govern their gods instead of being like the God of Spirit of is Love that the God of heaven is. It is who we are not what we try and be as noble before man by following some law for sabbath.

I know this is a popular doctrine, but its not one found in our Bibles. While we should worship God 365 24/7 there is no Scripture that says every day is the Sabbath

If every day was the Sabbath, no work would get done and basically we would all starve. God knows we have to work for a living to support ourselves and to get household chores and other work that needs to get done.

The 4th commandment is not just the Sabbath commandment it is a commandment for how we are to keep all days. Exo 20:8-11

The 4th commandment of God is no different than the commandment to only worshipping God or not stealing from our neighbor. James 2:11-12 quoting Exo 20:1-17 What did Jesus say when we lay aside the commandment of God - meaning its not for me, and keep our own traditions/laws instead? He said in vain they worship Me and its the path that leads one to a ditch Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13. While we have free will, what you are teaching is not one found in God's holy Word.

You can go to a church once a week for your whole life and never know the God of it to be in His same image of Love and walk in it as He walks in it with the same signs follow you.

That's true and we can also claim to know God but not keep His commandments and are told this
.
1Jn 2:4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The Sabbath is much deeper than just going to Church on the Sabbath, although that is part of it as Jesus wants us in one body Lev 23:3 and the example we see from Jesus and the apostles Luke 4:16 Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts 18:4 etc. and it continues for eternity for God's saints Isa 66:23 thus saith the Lord.

And the day that you do repent from the was for some law, Jesus said in John 16:23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

John gives us context around this...

John 15: 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you[b] will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
1Jn 5:14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
Pro 28:9 One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, Even his prayer is an abomination.

God personally spoke and personally wrote His will Psa 40:8 and Testimony Exo 31:18 He called them as a unit Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 My (God) commandments Exo 20:6

In that I do not need mans rituals

Agreed. Its what I have been saying. Sunday-keeping is nothing more than a man-made tradition.

spawned by some law,

I do pray you are not referring to the Testimony of God i.e. the commandments of God Exo 20:6 Exo 31:18 written by the finger of God as "some law" as they are holy, just and good Rom 7:12 and perfect for converting the soul Psa 19:7 divinely written by God Himself placed in the Most Holy of His Temple under His mercy seat also seen in heaven Rev 11:19 as the earthy temple was a miniature of the real one Heb 8:1-5

After Matt 3:16 he was a sabbath breaker and accused of blaspheme for doing so by those religious folk. Crucified him for it.

Are you claiming Jesus was a sinner and commandment-breaker and the Pharisees were right that Jesus deserved to be crucified despite Jesus own Testimony that He did not break the Sabbath and did not sin. Jesus never broke the Sabbath commandment- He may have broke the Pharisees sabbath that did not resemble the Sabbath in the 4th commandment, as they added their rules to God's commandments, something Jesus condemned because no one is above the Authority of God to add to or take from God's written and spoken Testimony Deut 4:2 Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18 whoever we obey is who we serve, so if we are not obeying God the way He commanded, it means we are serving another perhaps without even realizing it Rom 6:16.

John 8: 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

 

[SabbathBlessings]

We worship the God of Who simply is Love because it is who we become in is same image that He creates man to be of His same Spirit which is Love.

God who is love did Create man in His image and likeness.

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

What did God do after the six day, right after He made man in His image?

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
Gen 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

No wonder why God commanded us to follow this same patten as we are made in His image to follow Him, not do our own thing.


Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Hence the Sabbath was made for man Mark 2:27