Why worry about the Ten Commandments, if you are disregarding the Sabbath?

[Cliff2]

Actually...



The Ten Commandments, as a system of standard or rule, and in particular the Sabbath was commanded to the Israelite nation with the Mosaic (Sinaiic) Covenant. It was expressly given to the Hebrew children as a sign of the Old Covenant. (Ex 31:16,17 - Ezekiel 20:12 - Deut 4:5)

No one is saying that God did not write the ten commandments at Mt Sinai, but look at them and it is easy to see that one God said to remember which is the 4th commandment is the one most try and forget. Then how can one remember a command if they did not know about it before hand.

So looking at it both ways it is easy to see that they were there long before God wrote them down.

God right in the Garden of Eden made the 7th day holy. That was the Sabbath day. It has been there since then.

 

[Cliff2]

He said the law and the prophets testified of Him, and that not a jot of it should pass before it had all been fulfilled. Then a little later He said "it is finished." And after that again, Paul said Jesus abolished the law on the cross.
God's will doesn't change, but the law was "added because of transgression". It's job is to condemn us and show us sin, it's not a blueprint of God's will.
We are not under law but under grace, led by the Spirit and not the letter.
The law might be good and just, but it has never blessed anyone, and it doesn't change your position before God.

The law that was finished was the law of sacrifices not the moral law of the ten commandments.

 

[holo]

The law that was finished was the law of sacrifices not the moral law of the ten commandments.

We disagree, but God keeps us both.

I don't think God changed His moral standard. In fact, as Jesus showed on the sermon on the mount, God's standard is waaaay higher than the ten commandments. I just believe that we now, on this side of the cross, are free to live according to the Spirit *instead* of the "written code". The Spirit, being of God, obviously agrees with God's moral standard.
The difference is that with the Spirit in us we can live a life that far surpasses the demandments of the law.

And personally, I find that those two ways to live conflict with each other. If I try to live according to the law (be it the ten commandments or the sermon on the mount or some christian norm), no matter how good it is, it only ends up judging me. Without exception.
However, when I realize that no matter what I do, I'm danged to heck (sic), that's when God has some real raw material to work with. Without my focusing on the law (and as a result, sin), He gets to fill me and lead me with His Spirit. The law, just like any other part of the bible, is just dead words unless the Spirit guides you.

We can use the law to see we are sinners (which was it's intention) and we can even pull it out of the bible and demand non-believers live according to it, poor people who without God don't have the slightest chance of living up to it.

But we live under the blood, after the cross, in God's mercy.

2 Corinthians 3:6-8
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant–not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

Here the the ten commandments are actually called "the ministry that brought death"!

 

[BrightCandle]

The Ten Commandments, as a system of standard or rule, and in particular the Sabbath was commanded to the Israelite nation with the Mosaic (Sinaiic) Covenant. It was expressly given to the Hebrew children as a sign of the Old Covenant. (Ex 31:16,17 - Ezekiel 20:12 - Deut 4:5)

If you follow that line of reasoning then the all 10 of the Ten Commandments would only apply to Jews. That would not make sense. Because in the NT, sin is defined as "lawlessness". The issue is that most modern Evangelicals and Fundementalists agree and promote the Ten Commandments as I pointed out in the opening statement of this thread, but the problem is with the 4th Commandment, which they don't want to keep as it is written. Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to obey the 10 Commandments as they are writtten, I mean honestly, a twelve year old child can understand them, why is it so hard for mature adults to obey?

 

[BrightCandle]

We disagree, but God keeps us both.

I don't think God changed His moral standard. In fact, as Jesus showed on the sermon on the mount, God's standard is waaaay higher than the ten commandments. I just believe that we now, on this side of the cross, are free to live according to the Spirit *instead* of the "written code". The Spirit, being of God, obviously agrees with God's moral standard.
The difference is that with the Spirit in us we can live a life that far surpasses the demandments of the law.

And personally, I find that those two ways to live conflict with each other. If I try to live according to the law (be it the ten commandments or the sermon on the mount or some christian norm), no matter how good it is, it only ends up judging me. Without exception.
However, when I realize that no matter what I do, I'm danged to heck (sic), that's when God has some real raw material to work with. Without my focusing on the law (and as a result, sin), He gets to fill me and lead me with His Spirit. The law, just like any other part of the bible, is just dead words unless the Spirit guides you.

We can use the law to see we are sinners (which was it's intention) and we can even pull it out of the bible and demand non-believers live according to it, poor people who without God don't have the slightest chance of living up to it.

But we live under the blood, after the cross, in God's mercy.

2 Corinthians 3:6-8
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant–not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

Here the the ten commandments are actually called "the ministry that brought death"!

Do you believe that Jesus has the power to help you keep all 10 of God's 10 Commamdments, as He has written them, and when you do fall He will make up the difference?

 

[holo]

Do you believe that Jesus has the power to help you keep all 10 of God's 10 Commamdments, as He has written them, and when you do fall He will make up the difference?

Yes, but I think it goes even further than that: I belive that I don't even have to think about the ten commandments because with Jesus in me I have such love for my fellow man that "thou shalt not steal" is so obvious it's almost silly.
I don't have the need for a written law to tell me to love my neighbour when I have God Himself in me to guide me. Besides, you could do pretty good in most of the commandments without love, and love is what we're supposed to do.
I've never felt God lead me to do (or not do) anything in particular on sundays or saturdays though.

To me, it doesn't begin with my trying to keep the commandments, fail, and then seek Jesus. That would kinda be like repeating that first step over and over and over. And it's what I did for most of my waking life, btw.
No, I believe it begins and ends with Jesus. My flesh isn't any better at following the commandments now than it was before I found Jesus. But now I have the Spirit in me. The old Jews didn't (not to the extent that they all were filled with Him, like it is after pentecost).

The law can only judge me, but Jesus says I'm already clean, and it's about time I start looking at Him and what He's done ("it is finished") instead of mirroring myself in the law. I'm not under it, I have nothing to do with it.

Romans 4:13
It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

Romans 4:16
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring–not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

It seems Paul makes a distinction between those under the law and the rest of us (gentiles).

Romans 7:4-6
So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

 

[holo]

In other words, it's not like Jesus steps in to cover what I lack. He makes EVERYTHING new, He makes me clean from top to toe, beginning to end, from here to eternity.

 

[TheDag]

I decded to remove this post. Sorry halo your next post might not make as much sense now.

 

[holo]

If King David lived today he certainly would have played the electric guitar. With fuzz. He wasn't shy.

 

[TheDag]

drewbiez just out of interest do you cover your head in church during prayer?
If you don't you are breaking Gods law according to your interpretation of the bible.
BrightCandle do you wear clothing of a mixed blend eg polyester cotten?
If you do you are breaking Gods law according to your interpretation of the bible.

In the NASB version which seems to be the one SDA's like to use it also says you shall do no work on the 10th, 15th, 23rd days of the seventh month. Do you follow this? It might not be part of the ten caommandments but it clearly says "The Lord spoke to moses saying..." so we have to take it that God wanted these days kept holy for all time as well. I can't see any difference between God writing some laws on stone and God telling laws to moses.
Edit: I don't think God cares which day you make the sabbath. I think the underlying principle is that you celebrate a sabbath and make it holy.

 

[Cliff2]

Edit: I don't think God cares which day you make the sabbath. I think the underlying principle is that you celebrate a sabbath and make it holy.

That is an interesting statement. Of course this is an opinion of yours.

I wonder what God says?

"Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy..."

Sounds a bit different to what you think.

 

[Cliff2]

Does God give us the option of choosing a day we want to keep as the Sabbath?

I am yet to find such a statement.

 

[GypsyBella]

The 4th commandment BrightCandle posted said nothing about which day you should preach on. It specifically said you should do no work on the Sabbath; it did not address the day you should conduct corporate worship. Why are you twisting it to say you must have church on Saturday or you are breaking the 4th?

This is very true. I believe we should preach and worship every day of the week! Not just Saturday or Sunday! You can't wait for the world to enter the church doors, you have to go out to the world!

The fourth commandment says to remember the Sabbath day and to keep it holy. What do you think it means by "keep it holy"?

Something else that I've heard discussed is what is considered work? The pharisees told Jesus that he couldn't heal on the Sabbath! Can you believe that? They told the Messiah that He couldn't do His Father's work on the Sabbath... that blows my mind every time I think about it... Anyway, some Sabbatarians say would tell you that you can't work in your yard on Saturday, because that would be breaking the 4th commandment. Well, what if you enjoy working in the yard, and you consider enjoying God's creation a part of your communion with Him? Then it's not work, right? I believe that this is the difference between God's eternal commandments and the law of Moses', which was 100's of rules and restrictions.

 

[Caissie]

I don't have the need for a written law to tell me to love my neighbour when I have God Himself in me to guide me.

But you need the law to tell you how to love your neighbor better.

Why then did the diciples tell the Gentiles the following:
Acts 15:19-20;
Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Looks like they needed something else than just "love your neighbor". And where does "abstain...from things strangled, and from blood" fit into that equation? Should we abstain from things strangled and from blood too?

Also, I noticed that I would have had sex before marriage if it wasn't a law. Is sex between two consenting adults ok? Maybe I am not righteous enough, because if I had just "love thy neighbor and love God" as the only two commandments with no other place in the bible telling my not to have sex outside of marriage (and not knowing that all the law "hangs" on those two commandments), I know that I would think sex before marriage is ok. In fact...that would be my way of showing the girl I am dating, "love".

With the law though, and knowing that all the commandments "hang" on those two commandments, makes me think.....how is not having sex outside of marriage "loving" your neighbor? And how is not drinking blood "loving" your neighbor? Well, by not having sex before marriage you end up with greater trust in a marriage, which in turn makes a better marriage. Also, I have dated many that have sex before marriage, and can tell they do not trust people that they are dating, which makes for a poor relationship with much added stress, with much less hurt in the end when you find out they are not marriage material. About drinking blood: Did you know that the U.S. practices this law. They think it is a good law to follow. We drain the blood from the cow and other animals before we eat them. They do this for health reasons. There are many health laws in the bible. I think God gave those to us to stay healthy. How is staying healthy loving your neighbor? Well, if I do not stay healthy, then the chances are very high that sooner or later someone will have to take care of me. They will have to spend their time and money because of my selfishness (because I wanted to smoke, inject, eat or drink things that were bad for me). Therefore, I am not loving my neighbor when I eat unclean meats or drink blood (I probably would not know this without the law).

Matthew 5:17-18
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Here is another question for you.....what are the "least commandments"? It can not be "love thy neighbor" or "love God" because those are the "greatest commandments".

 

[GypsyBella]

drewbiez just out of interest do you cover your head in church during prayer?
If you don't you are breaking Gods law according to your interpretation of the bible.
BrightCandle do you wear clothing of a mixed blend eg polyester cotten?
If you do you are breaking Gods law according to your interpretation of the bible.

In the NASB version which seems to be the one SDA's like to use it also says you shall do no work on the 10th, 15th, 23rd days of the seventh month. Do you follow this? It might not be part of the ten caommandments but it clearly says "The Lord spoke to moses saying..." so we have to take it that God wanted these days kept holy for all time as well. I can't see any difference between God writing some laws on stone and God telling laws to moses.
Edit: I don't think God cares which day you make the sabbath. I think the underlying principle is that you celebrate a sabbath and make it holy.

These would be very good points if it weren't for one thing: there is a clear distinction in the Bible between the Ten Commandments and the law of Moses.

Deut. 4:
13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.
14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might observe them in the land which you cross over to possess. (NKJV)

Notice how Moses clearly separates the "covenant which He commanded you to perform" and the statutes and judgements that "the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you". God wrote the Law in stone with His own finger. He commanded Moses to teach judgements and statutes to the Jewish people.

One thing that definately proves that the law of Moses and God's law are two separate entities is that they were stored in two different places in/on the Ark of the Covenant.

Deut. 31:
24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying: 26 "Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;

Exodus 25:
16 And you shall put into the ark the Testimony which I will give you.

Moses' law was written and placed in a pocket on the ark, while to commandment written by God were written on stone and placed inside the ark.

The Ten Commandments existed before they were put in stone on Mt. Sinai. The existed in Eden! Even Cain knew that it was a sin to murder (a Commandment of God, as we all know). God told him that "sin lieth at the door" (Genesis 4:7).
Also before Mt. Sinai, Abraham was commended by God as the following verses states: "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws" Genesis 26:5.

The Bible teaches that where there is no law, there is no sin. Romans 4:15 says "...for where no law is, there isno transgression" . Also, I John 3:4 says, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law". Paul also said in Romans 7:7, "I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet". These are NT verses! Do you think they're talking about the Jewish law of Moses? Of course not. They are speaking of the eternal Law of God.

So point being, the law of Moses was destroyed at the cross, which is a fact that I'm sure we all agree on. The observance of the Ten Commandments by SDA's does not mean that SDA's, or anybody else for that matter, are under the law of Moses.

 

[cygnusx1]

It is illogical to relegate one of the 10 Commandments to the Jews, and leave the other 9 for the rest of mankind. Why don't we apply the using of the Lord's name in vain to the Jews, only? Or the worhsip of craven images to the Jews, only? All Ten Commandments were written with God's finger in stone. If the Sabbath was to be temporary, and to be changed at a later date, then it would have been written by Moses on paper like the ceremoninal law was.

And as James said in his NT book, if you break one of the 10 Commandments, then you have broken them all, therefore if you break the Sabbath, which is in the heart of the 10, you have broken God's holy law, it's that simple.

I agree with you , It is all Law or not , you cannot pick which bits of The law you want to place yourself under , take circumcision , and eating certain meats , these are all part of The Law of God .

Any imperfection under The Law is punishable , it is for good reason that God has a High and Holy standard .

The Law is Good , it is Holy , and it is One .

There have always been those who advance the notion of tearing it up , and picking which bits they like .
Some get out the scissors and cut it up this way ..

The Law is
1.Ceremonial
2. Civil
3. Moral


They then go on to declare which bits they will keep , and which bits they reject .

Usually it is The Moral bit that is kept , and the rest is rejected.

but The Law is One , it cannot ever be cut up , hacked and Hewed into convenient pieces .


Now This Law , is powerful , it is Strong and it does not recognise any excuses for failure , it is all about Rule Power and authority .

what is more you are not at liberty to ignore any part of the Law , and the consequences are spelled out... God demands perfection.

Also the Law doesn't recognise Jew , Christian , or any other name , it's job is to Direct , and to KILL.

Welcome to The Perfect Law of God.

It may be of interest to some to know that Christians DIED , almost 2000 years ago on a Cross , yes died , and that we were in Christ on the cross , being put to death UNDER THE LAW OF GOD!!

The Law is like an old Landlord , it comes to me , but I just tell it I don't live in Your House anymore , I live in a NEW HOUSE , so you cannot threaten , or demand of me anymore .
Sometimes The Devil tries to use the Law against me , and I have to say , "what are you going to do ? I am aquitted , I am no Longer in court , and what possible threat can you hold over me ?"
The answer used to come back "I can kill you , you deserve to die , why you have broken this Law This very day" , to which I always reply , "you are just too late , I have already died "

You cannot kill a dead man no matter how hard you try.

Greetings Cygnus

Romans 7
Do you not know, brethren -- for I am speaking to those who know the law -- that the law is binding on a person only during his life?



Thus a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives; but if her husband dies she is discharged from the law concerning the husband.



Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.



Likewise, my brethren, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.



While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.



But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

 

[Celticflower]

I do not think that this tread was debating about which commandment is the greater one....it is about the sabbath.

Remember.....the question you are referring to in Mark was which commandment was the greatest.....and Jesus told them the top 2.

QUOTE]

The point I was making was that Jesus didn't seem to regard keeping such a tight reign on the sabbath as important as some people here insist.

 

[Caissie]

The point I was making was that Jesus didn't seem to regard keeping such a tight reign on the sabbath as important as some people here insist.

Point taken. That reminds me......

I have a friend that is in jail. He told me that some S.D.A.s came and visited the jail to "witness". Before he said anything else, I cut him off and said..."I bet they talked about keeping the Sabbath". He confirmed that this was the main topic of the sermon.

I figured....These guys are in jail....probably a better commandment to preach to them would be, "thou shalt not steal", "thou shalt not murder", or "love thy neighbor".

Most religions get hung up on their doctrine and they do spend a lot of effort in convincing people that their religion is right that they do not perform the weightier matters of the law.

I am not a S.D.A., but I have in the last few years come to the conclusion that the law has not been abolished, therefore I try and keep the sabbath (another reason that I keep it is because it is a shadow of Jesus' millennium reign). I do not believe it makes me more righteous than people who do not. Keeping the sabbath is easy. There are other commandments that I struggle to keep (like not lusting). Thank God for his Son. (Some people make it sound like if you have the Holy Spirit in you that you will not even lust....I guess that would mean that I do not have the Holy Spirit......BTW guess how I know that people shouldn't lust.....hint.....I did not learn it from "thou shalt love thy neighbor).

 

[TheDag]

These would be very good points if it weren't for one thing: there is a clear distinction in the Bible between the Ten Commandments and the law of Moses.

Deut. 4:
13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.
14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might observe them in the land which you cross over to possess. (NKJV)

Notice how Moses clearly separates the "covenant which He commanded you to perform" and the statutes and judgements that "the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you". God wrote the Law in stone with His own finger. He commanded Moses to teach judgements and statutes to the Jewish people.

One thing that definately proves that the law of Moses and God's law are two separate entities is that they were stored in two different places in/on the Ark of the Covenant.

Deut. 31:
24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying: 26 "Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;

Exodus 25:
16 And you shall put into the ark the Testimony which I will give you.

Moses' law was written and placed in a pocket on the ark, while to commandment written by God were written on stone and placed inside the ark.

The Ten Commandments existed before they were put in stone on Mt. Sinai. The existed in Eden! Even Cain knew that it was a sin to murder (a Commandment of God, as we all know). God told him that "sin lieth at the door" (Genesis 4:7).
Also before Mt. Sinai, Abraham was commended by God as the following verses states: "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws" Genesis 26:5.

The Bible teaches that where there is no law, there is no sin. Romans 4:15 says "...for where no law is, there isno transgression" . Also, I John 3:4 says, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law". Paul also said in Romans 7:7, "I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet". These are NT verses! Do you think they're talking about the Jewish law of Moses? Of course not. They are speaking of the eternal Law of God.

So point being, the law of Moses was destroyed at the cross, which is a fact that I'm sure we all agree on. The observance of the Ten Commandments by SDA's does not mean that SDA's, or anybody else for that matter, are under the law of Moses.

Your response does not include anything about new testament law. So my question still stands as valid.
Romans 4:15 which you quoted is part of a passage that points out that those who have the law and those who don't have the law are both heirs of the same promise (promise being the promise of salvation) through faith.
The passage in 1 John 3:4 isn't talking about the 10 commandments. If so then it would be impossible for any christian to break any of the 10 commandments when this verse is taken in context of verse 6. (It is believed that it is actually talking about the hold of sin on us is broken because of what Jesus did on the cross and that sin is actually talking about the anti-christ.)
In Romans7:7 Paul seems to be talking about his own experience. That is the law taught him right from wrong but he made the law to be so important that he forgot about God and worshipped the law instead.

 

[Cliff2]

Point taken. That reminds me......

I have a friend that is in jail. He told me that some S.D.A.s came and visited the jail to "witness". Before he said anything else, I cut him off and said..."I bet they talked about keeping the Sabbath". He confirmed that this was the main topic of the sermon.

I figured....These guys are in jail....probably a better commandment to preach to them would be, "thou shalt not steal", "thou shalt not murder", or "love thy neighbor".

Most religions get hung up on their doctrine and they do spend a lot of effort in convincing people that their religion is right that they do not perform the weightier matters of the law.

I am not a S.D.A., but I have in the last few years come to the conclusion that the law has not been abolished, therefore I try and keep the sabbath (another reason that I keep it is because it is a shadow of Jesus' millennium reign). I do not believe it makes me more righteous than people who do not. Keeping the sabbath is easy. There are other commandments that I struggle to keep (like not lusting). Thank God for his Son. (Some people make it sound like if you have the Holy Spirit in you that you will not even lust....I guess that would mean that I do not have the Holy Spirit......BTW guess how I know that people shouldn't lust.....hint.....I did not learn it from "thou shalt love thy neighbor).

Caissie

Can't do anything about what those guys said now but will offer my apologies for the way they acted towards those inside.

Myself, I would have pointed them towards the cross and how Jesus was more than willing to die for sinners of whom Paul said he was the chief.

Take them through the last week of the life of Christ and see what He gave for us.

Tell them the story of Mary as she was brought to Jesus so that He would condem her as they wanted it to be. Then Jesus just bent down and wrote in the sand. It was not too long and the accusers had went.

There is so much that could have been said that would have helped those guys.

Back to our topic here.

So afr all I can see from what has been said is that no one can show me where it says in the Bible that the commandments have been changed, or done away with.