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Featured Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by precepts, Nov 28, 2016.

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  1. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely correct my friend!
     
  2. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    I agree that this verse is for us today, as the great Day of the Lord's wrath onto the whole world, hasn't occurred yet.
    But to think 'keeping from', means 'removal out of', is quite wrong. It is proper Bible exegesis to look for other texts to find out the true meaning of verses like Revelation 3:10. We need a definitive proof text to settle it and there isn't one saying God will take people to heaven. But there are plenty saying God will protect His people during His terrible Day of vengeance and wrath:

    Psalms 23:4 Even if I walk through a valley of darkness, I will fear no harm, for You are with me.

    Isaiah 41:3 For I the Lord, will hold your right hand, saying: fear not, I will help you.

    Zephaniah 2:3 Seek the Lord, all you who obey Him, it may be that you will be sheltered on the Day of the Lord’s anger.

    Proverbs 3:25 Do not be afraid when fools are frightened or when destruction overtakes the wicked, for the Lord will be at your side on that Day.

    Isaiah 43:2 You will walk through fire and not be scorched, through flames, they will not burn you. Daniel 3:25, Jeremiah 30:4-11

    1 Corinthians 10:13.... God will not test you beyond your powers and when the test comes, He will provide a way out to enable you to endure.

    Psalms 9:10 The Lord does not abandon those who seek Him and trust in Him.

    2 Peter 2:9 God knows how to rescue the godly from their trials.

    Psalms 18:3 I shall call upon the Lord, then I will be made safe.

    Psalms 31:23-24 The Lord protects the faithful. Be strong, all you whose hope is in the Lord.

    Psalms 64:10 The righteous rejoice, their refuge in the Lord.

    Zechariah 9:15-16 The Lord of hosts will protect His people...On that Day, He will save them, like a flock, for they are precious to Him. Isaiah 61:10

    Psalms 37:18-19 The Lord watches over the righteous, when times are bad, they will not be distressed.

    Job 22:30 He will deliver the innocent, because their hands are pure.

    Psalms 91:1-16 ...He will rescue you, you will not fear the terrors abroad.

    Psalms 121:1-8 Our help comes from the Lord, He will guard your life.

    Psalms 109:31 The Lord stands at the right hand of the poor and saves them from trials.

    Isaiah 51:16 I keep you covered under the shelter of My hand.

    Psalms 97:10-12 He keeps His loyal servants safe and rescues them from the wicked.

    Jeremiah 17:7-8 Blessed is anyone who trusts in the Lord, they will be like trees by a stream, when the heat comes it has nothing to fear.

    Nahum 1:7 The Lord is a sure protection in times of trouble and cares for all those who make Him their refuge.

    Psalms 60:4-5 To those who fear the Lord, He will show the way to escape from trouble.

    Psalms 37:9 For evildoers will be destroyed, those who trust in the Lord will prosper in the Land.

    Isaiah 26:20 On that Day, I will come to your aid.

    Daniel 12:1 There will be a time of anguish, but at that time, Your people will be delivered, all those whose names are written in the Book of Life.

    2 Thessalonians 1:7 ...to give you relief when the Lord Jesus comes in blazing fire.

    Joel 3:16 The Lord roars from Zion, the heavens and the earth shudder, but He is a refuge for His people and a defense for Israel.

    Isaiah 65:9b My chosen ones will take possession of the land, those who serve Me will live there.

    Ecclesiasticus 34:13-17 Those who fear the Lord will live, for their trust in Him can keep them safe. The Lord keeps watch over those who love Him, He is their shield and support, a shelter from the scorching wind and the heat of the sun. He raises their spirits and gives healing, life and blessings.
    Reference: Revised English Bible.
     
  3. Straightshot

    Straightshot Member

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    If one is "out of" [EK] the tribulation, one is not in it

    EK can also be translated "away from"

    [Revelation 7:9-17]
     
  4. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 7:4...
    'And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.'

    Then so as to make sure we do not confuse them with the church, or Jehovah Witnesses or anyone else, God tells us in Revelation 14:4-5..........
    Revelation 14:4-5:
    "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
    These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

    There is not a single passage in the entire New Testament where language that speaks of Israel or the Jews ever is used to refer to anyone who is not ethnically Israel.
     
  5. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    That comes across as very arrogant.

    The mistake that Judaism makes is that they think that their sages know everything and have placed them on a pedestal. And they get very upset, if a person even suggests that they might be wrong. I see you are relying on those persons you listed with the same sort of mindset.

    God is the person who knows everything and He reveals the understanding to whoever he chooses.

    While I believe that the rapture is represented by John being called up hither in Revelation 4:1 - I do not so because of a lot of persons with a "Phd in theology says so or have written a bunch of books.

    I challenge you to find anything from any of those persons - explaining the crowns/no crowns on the heads and horns in Revelation 17, 12, 13 - explaining why they are different in each of those chapters. Also Dr. J. Vernon McGee (Presbyterian background, which that denomination is anti-Israel) says that the modern state of Israel has no relevancy to bible prophecy. As I remember listening to his through the bible broadcast one night about 30 years ago. He is totally wrong. And not one of those "experts" has referenced the for 7 year confirmation requirement that Moses made in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, as being the confirmation of the covenant in Daniel 9:27....because God did not reveal it to them. And which of those "experts" have explained the difference between the "transgression of desolation" and the "abomination of desolation"? And which of those "experts" have noted the two feasts in Ezekiel 39? In short, those "experts" are nowhere near as smart as what you are saying.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
  6. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    But if there is nowhere in the Bible that says God will take us to heaven during trials and tribulation, then you have added it to the text. Not a good idea to add to Revelation.
    You demonstrate your bias and sheer lack of Bible knowledge to say that.
    Try Romans 9:6-8, Ephesians 2:11-18, Galatians 3:26-29, Isaiah 56:1-8
    A retraction from you is in order.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
  7. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    But did you not assume that the 24 elders represent the church? And don't tell me that's an "implied truth", because it's far from it.
    I'm not concerned with whether or not the word rapture is found in scripture. I'm more concerned with whether or not the Bible actually teaches a rapture.

    Now, in a sense, I believe the Bible does teach a rapture, but not as you suppose it. I believe the resurrection on the last day also brings us to heaven, which is why we are transformed into spiritual beings. We can not go to heaven until we're transformed after all. Some people call that event a "rapture". I prefer to call it the resurrection/transformation event because the resurrection and transformation for me are the most exciting things. The fact that we also go to heaven right afterwards is just a bonus in my mind. It's the resurrection from death and the transformation into imperishable beings that is the goal and the blessed hope that we all look forward to. That's the main event right there.

    Notice also that this resurrection event takes place on the last day, so not 7 years prior to the last day.

    Sure. But in the case of a pre-trib rapture I just don't think there's nearly enough of it. In fact, I think the evidence against a pre-trib rapture far outweighs any evidence for a pre-trib rapture.

    Note however, that both Enoch and Elijah (and we can probably include Moses in this group as well) were transformed before they were raptured. I assume you agree that this is a requirement; to be transformed first. Then you only have to go back to the words of Jesus when he said he would resurrect us on the last day, to know that our transformation also takes place on the last day. Therefore we can't be raptured prior to the last day.
    I have no idea who they are because the Bible doesn't tell us. So I'm certainly not going to pretend I have the answer nor use this unexplained imagery of 24 elders as evidence for or against anything. That would be disingenuous.
     
  8. precepts

    precepts Newbie

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    So you think there are OT prophecies that applies to our generation, and that God has prophecies in His book concerning people that denied He came in the flesh. That's interesting.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
  9. precepts

    precepts Newbie

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    Last edited: Dec 1, 2016
  10. precepts

    precepts Newbie

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    That is nonsense. I have provided the proof and have proven there isn't any evidence for a rapture but wishful thinking, just wanting to believe that certain verses are referring to the rapture, because there's no evidence of anyone in Revelation being there without being raised from the dead except for John.


    Remove the beam from your own eye first and spare me the con game.


    That is not the issue.

    Where is your train of thought? The issue and the fact is that Christ does not return until the 2nd resurrection, so there is no rapture. Everyone in Rev 7 was resurrected, appeared in heaven, and they weren't carried.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2016
  11. precepts

    precepts Newbie

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    It must be the work of the Devil why some think only 144,000 Jews are saved (though Christ said there are no longer Jew or Gentile) and that the great multitude doesn't include NT converted Jews.

    Must be the work of the Devil why anyone who have read Revelation and read that John was called up into heaven where God's throne was set and think that it's an earthly event that the great multitude is in heaven in Rev 7, but the 144,000 aren't.

    Isn't this just the scheme of things? Must it not be this way for it to be real, resistance?

    hdsyug.jpeg
     
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    What 2nd resurrection are you referring to?
     
  13. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    There is a huge amount of unfulfilled prophecy in the OT. Preterism just doesn't stand up to the facts of the historical record.
    We, at nearly 2000 years after Jesus' first Advent, are on the edge of God's wrap up of our civilization. A civilization that is again 'as in the days of Noah', apostate, atheistic, LGBT and godless, overdue for judgement and punishment. God fixed the situation once, He plainly states He will do it again.
    We Christians should know about it all, it's all written in the Bible for us to read. Denial and ignoring what the prophets tell us, just leaves you in the dark.
    The Jewish nation of Israel, is in the same category as every other nation on earth, it is only the individuals from every tribe, race, nation and language, who truly believe in God and keep the Commandments, who will be saved to live, at last, as God always wanted His people to be. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8
     
  14. Jezmeyah

    Jezmeyah member since 7-14-16

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    Rapture is mentioned in Revelation chapter 11, the resurrection of the Two Witnesses who'd been killed and dead for three days. Then a voice from heaven said to them "Come up here." And they went up into heaven.

    The same words were spoken to the apostle John in chapter 4, A door open in heaven, and the voice like the sound of a trumpet (similar to the teaching of the apostle Paul in 1 Thes.4:16 of the resurrection those believers who'd died and the rapture of both the dead raised and those who've remained alive).

    And so John was there at the Throne of God in heaven.
    Not tasting death until seeing Christ come into His kingdom was not speaking literally. Jesus gave the discourse before His death, and Christ coming into His kingdom has not yet happened over these 2000 years.

    The only other viable way for any of the disciples to see Christ come into his kingdom, is by a divine vision. Which happened to the apostle John while on the isle of Patmos. The book of Revelation.

    The foretaste of that occurred when Jesus was transfigured, he described the disciples being able to see him that way, was by a divine vision.
    The first resurrection, in Revelation 20:4-6, is referring to the resurrection of the Tribulation martyred saints who are raised up to reign with Christ for a thousand years.
    The following (2nd) resurrection is referring to the unsaved who after the thousand years, are raised up to go before the Great White Throne Judgment.

    (1st resurrection) In Rev.20:4 The souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

    To those who come to Him, He will in no wise cast out.

    (2nd resurrection) Rev.20:5 The rest of the dead (the unsaved) did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.

    To those unsaved Jesus says, "Depart from Me, I never knew you."

    Rev.20:6 This (of the saints) is the first resurrection (compared to the eventual resurrection of the unsaved to be judged at the Great White Throne of God); over these (saints) the second death has no power but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

    This 'first resurrection' of Rev.20:4-6 is not the only ever to occur, (there have been a few raptures that occurred in the old testament, and the resurrection and rapture of the old testament and gospel saints that occurred immediately after the resurrection of Jesus.
    There is the upcoming resurrection and rapture of the current living and dead saints since Jesus resurrection and ascension to heaven. And, the resurrection and rapture of the Two Witnesses in Revelation).
    Mat.24:3 His coming refers to the Second Advent.

    There is no rapture at that time. (the sequence of the events of the Tribulation in Revelation cannot always be strictly rendered by following the numbered chapters) But, there is the resurrection and rapture of the Two Witnesses before the Second Advent. And, then the resurrection of the dead saints before the thousand years, and the resurrection of the unsaved dead after the thousand years. Rev.20:4-6.

    Did your question include these verses?

    Mat.24:36-41 is not talking about the rapture. It is talking about the time on earth during the Tribulation.. when the wicked are being/will be taken away.

    The example given is the time of the flood of Noah. vs39 says, the flood came and took them all away. The reference here is clearly referring to death.

    Then similarly it says in vs40-41 that one will be taken away while another is left. Those that are left are comparable to those safe in the Noah's ark. So what is in view here is those who die in their sins, and those who are have salvation, and are protected by God and remaining alive.

    The coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. In those days normal activities occurred while Noah built his ark. During those normal activities vs39 says that there was no understanding among the wicked. That can be compared with 1 Thes.5:2-3 that says that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. There is "peace and safety", then destruction will come suddenly.
     
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Believing there is no Rapture is a sure fire guarantee that you will not be Raptured if there is one. Why would you want to miss out on something like that? In fact, the Pre-Trib Rapture is the view whereby you have the most to lose by not believing in it. Others disbelieve the Rapture (i.e. Pre-Trib Rapture) by holding to a Mid Trib or Post Trib view. But these views do not make any sense, either. For you will have a population problem with these two other views. Not to mention, God's people are not appointed to wrath. The Great Tribulation includes the time of wrath.

    Anyways, you can check out my End Times Chronology here at CF. I mention the Rapture, The 7 Year Tribulation with the Olivet Discourse passages, the Millennium, the Judgment, and the Final New Heavens and New Earth (But please take note that it is a Pre-Trib Only Thread, though; So only Pre-Trib Only folks can reply there).

    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/a-chronology-of-the-end-times.7968404/

    I provide detailed apologetics for the Pre-Trib Rapture in my commentaries. Just click on the spoiler buttons. But again, please take note that if you are not Pre-Trib Only, you cannot reply at the thread link I provided.

    May God bless you all.
    And please be well.


    ...
     
  16. John Hyperspace

    John Hyperspace UnKnown ReMember

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    The real problem with the "rapture" (and by this word, I don't mean a "catching up" which everyone understands; but as a teaching that "sometime prior to the second coming, multitudes of people will vanish, having been transported to "heaven" in order to escape "something perceived as bad" on the earth) is that it's not actually in the scripture. You can't "see" something into a passage unless it's first actually mentioned in the scripture.

    Meaning, before we can cite a scripture like "I will keep you from the hour" and claim "That's the rapture", we have to first actually have a teaching of said rapture in order to conclude 'there it is' Because when a person points at a scripture and says "There is the rapture" the only real question is "What rapture?" and it is that question's answer which is not in the scripture.

    If a person cites a scripture and says "There is the second coming" then we don't ask "What second coming?" because that event is clearly taught in scripture. The "rapture" however, doesn't even exist in scripture. It's somewhat like a man citing a scripture and stating "That is the 'promorphrous'" and we would ask "What promorphrous"? And should they say "That is when all of the children in the world will be transformed into butterflies in order to fly to a safe place underground" you would naturally then ask "Where is that taught in scripture?"

    Before we can "see" an event in the scripture, it has to first be actually taught by the scripture.
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Here ya go.

    A Description of the Rapture:

    1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    1 Corinthians 15:51-53

    Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


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  18. John Hyperspace

    John Hyperspace UnKnown ReMember

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    But if we want to know precisely when the "catching up" will occur, Paul teaches it clearly:

    1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    The first thing to notice is that them that "sleep" are brought with Jesus when He comes.

    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming/parousia of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    The second thing to note is that Christians are "alive and remaining" until the "parousia of the Lord": at which time, the "catching up" occurs, as the Lord descends with them that currently "sleep"

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    There He is, descending with the saints which currently "sleep"

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    There is the "catching up" which occurs at the "parousia of the Lord" when Jesus descends with the saints who currently "sleep"

    Now all we have to do is correlate another event that occurs at the "parousia of the Lord": Paul will explain further in his 2nd letter to the Thessalonians

    2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming/parousia:

    The first thing to note here is the effect of the "parousia" of the Lord: at this parousia, we have already learned from the 1st letter that Jesus descends with the saints who are currently "asleep in Christ", and here we learn that at this same time "that Wicked" is consumed by the spirit of the mouth of Christ, and is destroyed by the brightness of the "parousia" of the Lord.

    So what we have is this:

    The coming of "that Wicked" with all power and signs and lying wonders. This causes an apostacy from the truth as a "strong delusion" is sent on the world, and they "believe a lie"; after this has run its course, the "parousia of the Lord" occurs, as the Lord descends from heaven with a shout, bringing the saints which currently "sleep" with him in an event that is "bright" and destroys "that Wicked"

    So we can look for the coming of the "son of perdition" with all power, in order to deceive the world, causing an apostacy from the faith, and to sit in the temple of God claiming to be God, until the parousia of the Lord occurs, when Jesus descends from heaven with the saints who currently sleep being brought with him, in a bright event that reveals and destroys "that Wicked"

    End of the age.
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    In other words, call it whatever you like. The Scriptures say,

    "....we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air." (1 Thessalonians 4:17).



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  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    And this is where Modern Translations can be very helpful.

    Here is 1 Thessalonians 4:15 in the NIV and the NLT.

    New International Version
    According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

    New Living Translation
    We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.


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