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Featured Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by precepts, Nov 28, 2016.

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  1. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    So what? All that proves is that at some point the saints are in heaven. In no way does it tell us that this happens 7 years prior to the end of the world.
     
  2. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    It has a definite chronological order but there are several "parenthetical" chapters that have to be considered and identified.
     
  3. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I would call your attention to Revelation 4:1............
    "After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

    The opposition to the pre-trib rapture always likes to point out that the word Rapture is not even in the Bible. I’ve heard that so many times, I wonder if anybody really studies anymore, or if they just parrot what they’ve heard someone else say.

    The English word rapture is not in the Bible, that’s true. But neither is the word Bible, or Trinity. The Latin translators of the Bible used the word 'rapturo' - the root of the English word 'rapture'. In our Bible, the same Greek word, harpazo, is translated 'caught up' which means 'to seize upon with force' or 'to snatch up'. At the rapture, those who are in Christ (dead or living) will be changed into new glorified, immortal bodies and then we are “caught up” into the air to meet the Lord.

    IMO, John's translation to the throne in heaven pictures the church at the end of the age. It occurs prior to the opening of the first seal and the appearance of the rider on the white horse (Rev. 6). The 'come up here' command heard by John is the same command given to the two witnesses in Revelation 11 when they were translated back to heaven.
     
  4. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Emphasis mine. If opinion is all you've got, then can you at least admit that?
     
  5. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    The problem is going to be that you have already made up your mind on this. You have already decided that there is no pre-tribulation Rapture so there is not going to be anything said that is going to change that.

    If you had said that you were 'Open" to the leading of the Holy Spirit to teach you the truth of God's Word, then we might get somewhere.

    But we will give it a try anyway. It is has been said by those who reject the Rapture that......
    "I don't see the dead in Christ rising, Jesus descending from heaven, and us meeting Him in the air. So the cynics are right: the word "rapture" is nowhere to be found. All I see is gobbledygook.

    For the record, the word "rapture" comes from the Latin word "rapturo," which in turn was a translation of the Greek verb "caught up" found in 1 Thes. 4:17. You can call it the pre-trib rapture, the pre-trib rapturo, or the pre-trib caught up--it's all the same thing.
     
  6. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Yes, the problem is those who have chosen to believe in a rapture removal, are locked into it as Isaiah 29:9-12 says.
    So the truth of God's Plans can be presented to rapture believers over and over, but they just can't see it. This is all part of God's plan, so when the test comes and be sure it will, Ezekiel 33:33, those with insufficient faith in God's protection, will fall and denounce God.

    Gobbledygook? Not in the Bible, but far too many people add to it with their own interpretations and speculations.
    I have studied the Bible very intensively and there is no rapture or removal of people to live in heaven anywhere. A few special individuals only.
    What is promised, is how the holy people will live in all of the holy Land, as God always wanted them to be. THAT is our promise and our destiny.
     
  7. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Why should we think that 1 Thes 4 is speaking of anything other than the resurrection on the last day that Jesus spoke of?
     
  8. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I see we are starting off on the right Christian foot.

    Personally, I thought the letters IMO did exactly that, but who knew you would not understand them.

    Now I would have said to you, LastSeven, can you elaborate a little on your comment????

    So, anyway.......Revelation 3:10-11 has the promise of protection and is considered by many commentators to be the best exegetical proof of a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church.

    Arguments for the rapture in 10-11 is seen ......
    “Because you have kept my admonition to endure steadfastly, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come on the whole world to test those who live on the earth”.

    The argument the is that the promise is only to the church in Phila. But then when we study a little more we see that the 7 churches are indicative of and speak to AL churches.

    Those who see the rapture in this verse argue primarily on the basis of the Greek phrase ......
    τηρησω ἐκ τῆς ὥρας which means “I will keep you from the hour.”

    It is suggested that the Greek τηρήσω means to “preserve” or “protect,” while the preposition ἐκ means “out from within.” It is emphasized that the believers are not merely promised protection from the trial, but protection from the entire hour of trial, necessitating a removal from earth to heaven.

    Hence Rev. 4:1 explains that John has been translated to heaven ...............
    “After these things I looked and there was a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said: ‘Come up here so that I can show you what must happen after these things.’ Immediately I was in the Spirit, and a throne was standing in heaven with someone seated on it!”

    The mention of the trumpet, the voice, heaven, and the Spirit, as well as the implied action of John's “rapture” into heaven thus lend themselves to the understanding that the Rapture is in view.

    But that is not good enough is it????

    So then lets consider Revelation 4:4..........
    "In a circle around the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on those thrones were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white clothing and had golden crowns on their heads. "

    So then, WHO are the 24 Elders???

    Dr. John Walvrood, Dr. J. Vernon MaGee, Dr. Oliver B. Green, and a host of others who are a lot smarter then me and you say that the twenty-four elders in heaven, is the church which was seen in 3:10-11 and 4:1 and it now verified in 4:4.

    Dr. James Hinson writes writes, .......
    “One of the reasons the twenty-four elders are considered to be men redeemed and rewarded is that they are pictured as having golden crowns and clothed in white clothing. This would imply that they have already been judged and rewarded, as would be the case if there had been a pre-tribulational Rapture and a judgment seat of Christ following in heaven.”

    2 Timothy 2:15............
    "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

    Good to talk with you and may the Lord bless you!
     
  9. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    The Church will be removed from the earth BEFORE the appearing of the Antichrist as told to us in 2nd Thessalonians 2:7,8.

    Now, there isn't one verse in the entire Bible which indicates that the Church will go through the Tribulation period, NO not one. In fact, if you want proof of a Pretribulation Rapture, you'll find it simply by studying the Bible.

    If we compare Scriptures having to do with the Translation of the Church or the Rapture, with those passages relating to the setting up of Christ's Kingdom, one can only reasonably conclude that it would be utterly IMPOSSIBLE for these two events to occur simultaneously. Let's look at some of the comparisons

    Consider Matthew 25:31,32 .........
    "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. And before him shall be gathered all nations"

    Did you notice that Jesus is going to sit upon His throne in Jerusalem when He returns, and the nations of earth will be gathered before Him to be judged. How can this fact be reconciled with 1st Thessalonians 4:17, which states that the saints will be caught up together to meet with the Lord in the air?

    Matthew 25:32 to 34 ........
    "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."

    When the Lord returns to the earth at the Second Coming WITH His own, He is going to gather the nations of the earth together—separating the sheep from the goats, the righteous from the unrighteous. The sheep are the saved and will simply enter the Kingdom, and the goats are unbelievers) and will be cast into everlasting fire. The test in this judgment is the treatment accorded by the nations to those whom Christ here calls "my brethren." These brethren are the Jewish remnant of the 144,000 Jewish, male, virgins who will have preached the Gospel of the kingdom to all nations during the Tribulation. Carefully notice, there is NO mention of a resurrection and the persons judged are the nations of the earth. In sharp contrast, according to 1st Corinthians 15:52 there WILL BE a resurrection at the time of the Rapture.

    I am sure that you have studied this and there fore it is important to recognize that when Jesus returns to set up His Kingdom there is NO Rapture, no one is caught up into the air to be with the Lord. People who become Christians during the Tribulation Period will enter with their earthly bodies into the Millennium.

    Again, I am sure that is not good enough Proof so may I say to you that this is found in Isaiah 65:20-25, and in Zechariah 8:5 where children are mentioned playing during the Millennium.

    Those saved during the Tribulation will enter physically into the Millennial Kingdom. Where will these humans come from if the saints are ALL raptured and changed at the END of the Tribulation, i.e., a Postribulation Rapture? Obviously this cannot be. The only logical conclusion is a Pretribulation Rapture!
     
  10. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
    3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. - Rev 7

    9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
    10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. - Rev 7


    The rapture occurs before the hurt is applied to the earth, sea, and trees.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
  11. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    I plan on going up with the Saints and the 144,000 in Revelation 7. If you post tribbers prefer tribulation, I would enjoy the story when we meet together in heaven.

    As a matter of fact I plan on returning with Christ post trib to reign on this earth 1,000 years. Maybe I can look you up, I would be interested to hear on how you made it through!
     
  12. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    I apologize if I come across as crass. I don't mean to. I just like to get straight to the point. Don't take it personally.
    I assume you mean my comment about opinion. It's exactly as I said. Some things in scripture are clear, others not so much. So sometimes we're left to infer and assume things, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but we have to recognize and admit when we're doing that and not start believing our own assumptions to be fact because that could lead us down an incorrect path.

    If we believe our assumptions to be facts, then we inevitably build on those assumptions with more assumptions and we end up putting the pieces together without even knowing if the pieces are true. So that gives our theories a very weak foundation and you know what Jesus said about a weak foundation.

    This also applies to the rapture theory. There is no actual scripture that says "the saints will be physically removed from the earth x years before the end of the world while the other people will stay behind to suffer tribulation", which means you're left to infer things from other nebulous verses. If that's what you're doing, that's your prerogative, but at least admit it and don't claim that the Bible directly teaches a pre-trib rapture. You may have various verses to support your position, but those verses do not prove your position. That's the difference between evidence and proof. Evidence supports a position, but proof establishes it as fact. So if all you have is evidence, don't say that you have proof.
    Only if you can define "hour of trial" and if you can be certain to whom Jesus is speaking. Neither of which are easy to prove. So your interpretation depends entirely on two assumptions being correct. That's not exactly proof.
    Again, you're assuming that John was physically and entirely transported to heaven. I don't believe that's correct, as he says he was "in the spirit". So where was his body? I believe John was "transported" to heaven only in a vision or a dream. His body never went to heaven.

    In fact, we can be certain that his body never went to heaven because the physical does not inherit the spiritual. It's only after being transformed into spiritual beings that we can even enter into heaven.
    No, it's not.
    This is one huge inference. I certainly wouldn't take this argument to court. The fact is, theories abound, but we have no idea who the 24 elders are. Admit it.
    God bless you too.
     
  13. DingDing

    DingDing Well-Known Member

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    Not exactly... we will know the season but not the exact hour, and as Paul said in 1st Thessalonians 5, we (those alert in the church) are not in darkness so that this Day should overtake us as a thief. Paul in 2nd Thess. 2 makes it clear (to those who are alert) that the Day of the LORD will not happen until after the Son of Perdition has been revealed (which happens at the AoD - middle of Daniel's 70th week). When the AoD occurs, we know the time draws very near, but we (the alert) will not know the exact day of His coming, only the season, so your pre-trib requirement is not correct.
     
  14. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I understand and accept your explanation. I can respect your thesis as well.

    Now as for "assumption". NO! I do not assume anything, ever!

    You are correct in that the word Rapture is not found in the Bible. However, There is a teaching in all of educational learning that is called "Implied Truth".
    That means that there is enough information available to prove a point, even if the exact words are not found.

    Rapture would be one of those words. Trinity would also be one of those words. Neither is found in the Scriptures but there is overwhelming evidence that both in fact exist.

    If there is a question about the truth of a statement, it might be because there is a misunderstanding about the meaning of the words, or it might be because there is a disagreement about the predictions implied by the statement and what evidence would tend to confirm or deny it. If, for example, you claimed that Fred was a heavy drinker, and I claimed that he wasn't, it might seem that we have differing opinions about how much drinking Fred does. On the other hand, we might agree on how much he drinks, but we disagree on what is meant by a "heavy drinker" until we look into his garbage can. Then implications become fact when there is enough evidence.

    So then, does not evidence then become actual proof when there is enough of it. I think so!

    It is important to recognize when a dispute is about definition rather than substance in order to avoid a great deal of irrelevant debate.

    Having said that, it is also important to understand that God does not do things with out examples, or pictures or warnings first.

    The Rapture is the same. It is not an event which just pops up in 1 Thess. and Corinthians and then Revelation. Pictures or examples of it are found all through the Bible IF one is will ing to see them.
    Enoch—Genesis 5
    Elijah—2 Kings 6
    Isaiah—Isaiah 6
    Philip—Acts 8
    Paul—2 Corinthians 12
    Two Witnesses—Revelation 11
    Male Child (Jesus)—Revelation 12
    Many who sleep-Daniel 12

    May I also say to you my friend that in 1 Corinthians 10:11, speaking of some Old Testament events says..........
    "Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, . ."

    The word "example" is from the Greek word tupos, which means "form, figure, or pattern." The English word "type" is developed from the Greek word and provides the basis for why Bible students coined the term "typology." Typology refers to Old Testament patterns that illustrate doctrine—usually New Testament doctrine. It is wrong to teach a doctrine from a type. Types serve only to illustrate a doctrine that is taught clearly, or directly from the biblical text.

    Old Testament raptures, while not teaching the New Testament truth of the rapture of the church, do provide us with Old Testament types, patterns, or illustrations of the rapture or as I said earlier..."IMPLIED TRUTH". Thus, Enoch and Elijah stand as types of the rapture of the church. I believe that the purpose for both Old Testament and New Testament raptures come into clearer focus when seen within the framework of the covenantal protocol of recalling one’s ambassador from a distant land.

    Scriptures in fact say in 2 Peter 3:11-12..........
    "Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul, having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation."

    As for John. I agree completely about him being caught up to heaven in his spirit. His body was on Patmos but his spirit was in heaven and then notice what the Scriptures say in Rev. 4:1.......

    "After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

    THEN he sees the 24 Elders in heaven!

    Now again you are correct. We do not know who they are. They can be the 12 tribes of Jews + the 12 Apostles.

    But when did the Christians Apostles become the Nation of Israel????

    NO! They became the church!!!!

    If the 12 Elders do not represent the church which I belive they do, WHO DO YOU or what do you believe they are and do you have any Biblical proof?
     
  15. DingDing

    DingDing Well-Known Member

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    rockytopva, the point that some of us are trying to make is that the things described in Revelation 7 occur after the great tribulation! This makes the things described in Revelation 7 post-trib events! We need to define terms carefully. Post-trib means after satan's time of persecution of Israel and the church. A key point here is that the great tribulation is only a part (a first part) of the 2nd half of Daniel's 70th week. The 2nd part is technically called the Day of the LORD, and it is this portion that the church is promised exemption from, for it is a time of divine judgement.
     
  16. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Then you must be a male, virgin Jew. Are you one of those now?

    If not, you might want to consider some different travel plans real soon!
     
  17. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    The Saints and the 144,000 are two different congregations. Read the fine print!
     
  18. DingDing

    DingDing Well-Known Member

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    And by the way, the 144,000 are not going up... they are being intentionally 'left behind'.
     
  19. Straightshot

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    My comment

    The Lord's true ecclesia of both the dead in Christ and those living at the time will be made immortal just before the tribulation .... these will consist of both some of Israel and mostly Gentiles of the nations [Revelation 3:10; 7:9-17]

    The 144000 will be the first mortal believers of the tribulation period and they will spread the gospel of the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth .... the Lord Himself will lead them [Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-7]
     
  20. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    The tribulation saints are, quite simply, those living during the tribulation who come to Christ through the witness of the 144,000 Jewish men. I believe that the church will be Raptured before the Tribulation begins.

    The Bible tells us that a great number of people during the tribulation will place their faith in Jesus Christ. In his vision of heaven, John sees a vast number of these tribulation saints who have been martyred by the Antichrist.

    Rev. 7:9.......
    “There before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands”.

    So then who are they, the Saints. When John asks who they are, he is told in Rev. 7:14.......
    “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb”.
     
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