Revelation 12 walk through

[Douggg]

Is America a Kingdom? Is Trump a King?
No; and the Bible never says that the Israelites of God will have any other King than Jesus.

But they will elect a leader - a President, as Prophesied, over the new nation of Beulah, in all of the Holy Land.
When Jesus Returns, He will become King over all the world.

keras, Israel was reunified in May 14, 1948, as a nation born in a single day, fulfilling Isaiah 66:8.

Soon, the Gog/Magog event will take place, as Iran, and its affiliates of Hamas and Hezbollah, are already attacking Israel.

Not a 15 or 20 years down the road attack on a replacement nation (to the current nation of Israel) of Christians that you refer to as Beulah.

 

[keras]

keras, Israel was reunified in May 14, 1948, as a nation born in a single day, fulfilling Isaiah 66:8.

Soon, the Gog/Magog event will take place, as Iran, and its affiliates of Hamas and Hezbollah, are already attacking Israel.

Not a 15 or 20 years down the road attack on a replacement nation (to the current nation of Israel) of Christians that you refer to as Beulah.

Why don't you address the Prophesies I present?
Jeremiah 30:21 and Hosea 1:11, both plainly state that the Lords peoples will choose for themselves; a Leader. Like Moses or Gideon were.
This must happen before Jesus Returns and after the Christian peoples have become one nation.

Judah and the ten Northern tribes of Israel, remain separate today. There is plenty of proof that this is the truth and even the Jews agree.

Soon the Day of the Lords fiery wrath will take place. It will set the scene for the gathering of the Lords peoples into all of the Holy Land.
Ezekiel 36:1-38
This is what the Lord says about the Land of Israel: The enemies have gloated over you and you were trampled down when you were occupied by other nations. I will speak to the Land, now plundered and despised by the surrounding nations.
In My burning zeal, I have spoken out against the rest of the nations, especially Edom, for with glee and malice they seized My Land as spoil. Therefore, because Israel has suffered the scorn of the nations, I swear that those nations will in turn suffer scorn.

But you, Land of Israel, bring forth your branches and yield your fruit for My people, [all true Christian believers], for their homecoming is near. See how I will look on you with favour, you will be fruitful. I shall settle on you many people - the whole 12 tribes of Israel, [plus those grafted in] the towns inhabited and the Land prosperous. My people, will live there again, never again to leave. No longer will they suffer the scorn of foreigners.

When ancient Israel was living in the Land, they defiled it by their idolatry. I sentenced them to exile around the world. But I have concern for My Holy Name, so you Israelites, it is not for your sake that I am acting – I shall show My Holiness through you and all the nations will know that I am the Lord.

I shall take you out of the nations, gather you from every land and bring you back to your homeland. I will purify you of everything that defiles you. You will have a new heart and I will put My spirit within you and you will desire to only follow My Laws.

Then you will live in the Land that I had given to your forefathers. You will be My people and I will be your God. Having saved you from all that defiles you, I shall command the Land to be plentiful, trees will bear abundant fruit and the soil will produce heavy crops. Never again will you suffer famine. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-31
You will recall your wicked conduct and evil deeds and will hate yourself for them. Feel the shame and disgrace of your old ways, people of Israel.

The Lord says: when I have cleansed you of all your wrongdoings, you will settle in the Land and the ruined places will be rebuilt. The Land will be ploughed and sown, no longer a devastation. and rain will come in due season.
After the Sixth Seal disaster has cleared and cleansed the entire Holy Land.

The nations still left around you will know that it is I, the Lord who has done this.

The Lord says; once again, I will let the Israelites pray to Me for help. They will become many, as flocks of sheep in the Land. As Jerusalem has flocks of sheep at festival time, so will the towns of Israel be filled with flocks of people.
Then: they will know that I am their God. Ref: REB some verses condensed.

The prophet Ezekiel, who was commissioned to prophesy specifically to the House of Israel: Ezekiel 2:3, wrote chapter 36, giving the story of how God will, in His burning zeal, clear the evil neighbours, - Jeremiah 12:14, out of all of the Holy Land.

Then, His people, the Christian Israelites, Jews and from every nation and language, will gather and settle in the Land. They will receive God’s Spirit and will live in the Land with great prosperity. This is in order for them to be a light to the nations and to prepare for the Return of Jesus.

 

[Douggg]

Why don't you address the Prophesies I present?

Because your interpretations are not correct as far as the current nation of Israel being replaced.

 

[keras]

Because your interpretations are not correct as far as the current nation of Israel being replaced.

Because; what the Prophets actually say, does not conform to your beliefs.

Verses like Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7 prove the existence of a Christian nation in the Holy Land during the end times.
Many Prophesies tell of the virtual demise of Jewish Israel. Isaiah 6:11-13, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Matthew 8:12

Your belief of an 'anytime rapture', is totally unsupported. The Bible tells us many times, how we must keep strong in our faith, trusting the Lord until the end. The position of the Christian peoples during the final 3 1/2 years, is told to us in Revelation 12. Half of them will be taken to a place of safety on earth. The other half, who failed in their faith; must remain,- under Satanic control.
Any beliefs contrary to this, is wrong and cannot happen.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Sure it did. Sometimes Paul uses literary conventions that don't always seem to make sense at face value. As Peter said, "Sometimes Paul says difficult to understand things that some get confused about." (paraphrased)

In this case, Paul most obviously is not saying that Israel is not Israel. That should be a clue that Paul is using some kind of literary convention. It wouldn't make sense unless you're following his train of thought. Or, perhaps you have to understand his Hebrew background.

A major factor in Hebrew life is the threat that if they refuse to live by the Law of Moses, they will be "cut off" from the people. It would mean that they stopped being assembled with "Israel." They should have to join another culture, or even be killed.

It is like telling a wayward son, "You are no longer my child. I disown you!" The child does not stop being a son, but he is being treated *as if* he is no longer a son.

Paul is therefore not denying that wayward Israel is "Israel." Rather, he is saying that for the sake of identifying Israel's unworthiness he is identifying them as "Untrue Israel" or "Wayward Israel."

Paul uses the example of Ishmael being rejected from being Israel as an example of how one unworthy of the name "Israel" might be looked as if he is another nation entirely--perhaps even a pagan nation? It isn't as if Paul is saying that any Jew is not "Israel" but that in acting like a pagan nation it appears as if they are not Israel any longer, lacking the faith they were called to display.

You misunderstand Paul, in my view. He is saying that *for purposes of establishing Faith* physical characteristics of Israel is not the exclusive basis for determining that. Faith is displayed on top of physical characteristics--physical characteristics are not being rejected, but only in terms of the exclusive means of establishing faith in Israel.

You have changed the equation. You are now saying the litmus test is for "God's children." That was not the litmus test being discussed. It involves "True Israel," which is concerned only with faith in Natural Israel.

It is not a matter of identifying who is Israel, but rather, who is "True or Faithful Israel." A "true Jew" must be both a Natural Jew (or a converted Jew) and be a Jew who has genuine faith. Being a Natural Jew is insufficient to establish his faithfulness.

A Jew who fails to display genuine faith does not cease being a Jew. He just ceases being a "true" or "faithful" Jew! This is not a matter of defining who a "Jew" is. Rather, it is God's way of showing who among the Jews are being rejected for final placement in that assembly.

I've been away from this forum for awhile, but just came back and just now saw this post. So, you acknowledge here that there is what you called "True or Faithful Israel" and you contrasted that with "Natural Israel". And, yet, you have a problem with me saying there are two Israels. Even though you do the same. I don't get it.

Similarly, you reference a "true Jew" in contrast to "a natural Jew". Is that not two different types of Jews? Yet, despite this, you probably still claim there is only one type of Jew just like you claim there are not two Israels, but only one? Sorry, but I can't make any sense of what you believe. So be it.

 

[RandyPNW]

I've been away from this forum for awhile, but just came back and just now saw this post. So, you acknowledge here that there is what you called "True or Faithful Israel" and you contrasted that with "Natural Israel". And, yet, you have a problem with me saying there are two Israels. Even though you do the same. I don't get it.

Similarly, you reference a "true Jew" in contrast to "a natural Jew". Is that not two different types of Jews? Yet, despite this, you probably still claim there is only one type of Jew just like you claim there are not two Israels, but only one? Sorry, but I can't make any sense of what you believe. So be it.

You can't make sense of it because you assume I referred to "two Israels," when I didn't. It is "True Israel" within "Israel" proper. It is faithful Jews among many Jews, some of who remain and some of who leave forever. But all who remain, faithful or not, remain "Jews."

If I have a church full of people, and all of them are Christians I would say that they are all "Christians." But inasmuch as only *some* of them are "faithful" I can say that only some of them are "faithful Christians." The unfaithful Christians may decide to leave Christianity entirely, or they may eventually repent. But those who do not leave entirely do not stop being called "Christians."

Those who are unfaithful and do not leave Christianity entirely do not become "nonChristians." Rather, only *some* of them fall away completely, and these would no longer be Christians.

In the case of Israel we would call them all "Israel" and only *some* of them "Faithful Israel." In this case we know that God got so incensed with Unfaithful Israel that he disowned them and called them "Not My People."

I think that throws you off and makes you think that "Not My People" have stopped being "Israel." But this is just sort of a way of threatening those who are unfaithful with being cut off permanently. In reality, "Unfaithful Israel" was owned again to be called "Israel, My People." This is in Hosea.

They never stopped being "Israel." But if they completely turn away from their God forever, they stop living in Israel as well and are forced to join another nation. They are apostates who then become a different nation. They are no longer part of Israel!

You don't have to agree. But I hope this helps you to understand my position?