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So what? All that proves is that at some point the saints are in heaven. In no way does it tell us that this happens 7 years prior to the end of the world.They stood before throne and before the Lamb... That is a place in heaven!
Some believers (not myself) consider the Second Coming of Christ and the Day of The Lord to be two different events happening in the End Times even though the Bible says Matthew "Immediately after the tribulation of those days"
One verse that pre-tribulation rapture believers use is in 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4. The heading of this verse is only
"The Comfort of Christ’s Coming" It doesn't refer to a pre-tribulation rapture from my understanding of the Word
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
One thing that i'm uncertain about is the order of events in the Book of Revelation, whether it is in chronological order or not. In Chapter 7 of the Book of Revelation verse 9 the heading is "A Multitude from the Great Tribulation" - some people use this Chapter verses 9-17 to support the idea of the pre-tribulation rapture.
Though I might have mixed up how the rapture occurs in the OP, there's still nothing in Revelation that suggests a rapture.
Better yet, provide a verse that says people will be vanishing and not carried away/taken, because there is no disappearing act recorded in scripture.
Rev 20:5 specifically says the "rest" of the dead lived not until after the thousand yrs, the "rest".
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IMO, John's translation to the throne in heaven pictures the church at the end of the age.
If the proof was there, there wouldn't be any arguments, but because it's not, is why we argue.
There's nothing that suggest anyone is redeemed/raptured from the earth during the "1st resurrection" in Revelation, nothing at all but one verse (I think) about one taken and one left, and I'm beginning to thing it's speaking about the same situation from the old testament when Israel was besieged by Nebuchadnezzar, in the context of two being in the field and one being taken/slain and other escaping with his life. I'm beginning to think that way because the context of the NT verse is about the city being surround and besieged when it references this taken away! Food for thought!
Yes, the problem is those who have chosen to believe in a rapture removal, are locked into it as Isaiah 29:9-12 says.The problem is going to be that you have already made up your mind on this. You have already decided that there is no pre-tribulation Rapture so there is not going to be anything said that is going to change that.
Why should we think that 1 Thes 4 is speaking of anything other than the resurrection on the last day that Jesus spoke of?For the record, the word "rapture" comes from the Latin word "rapturo," which in turn was a translation of the Greek verb "caught up" found in 1 Thes. 4:17. You can call it the pre-trib rapture, the pre-trib rapturo, or the pre-trib caught up--it's all the same thing.
Emphasis mine. If opinion is all you've got, then can you at least admit that?
Yes, the problem is those who have chosen to believe in a rapture removal, are locked into it as Isaiah 29:9-12 says.
So the truth of God's Plans can be presented to rapture believers over and over, but they just can't see it. This is all part of God's plan, so when the test comes and be sure it will, Ezekiel 33:33, those with insufficient faith in God's protection, will fall and denounce God.
Gobbledygook? Not in the Bible, but far too many people add to it with their own interpretations and speculations.
I have studied the Bible very intensively and there is no rapture or removal of people to live in heaven anywhere. A few special individuals only.
What is promised, is how the holy people will live in all of the holy Land, as God always wanted them to be. THAT is our promise and our destiny.
So what? All that proves is that at some point the saints are in heaven. In no way does it tell us that this happens 7 years prior to the end of the world.
AGAIN: Revelation 14:1-3....the Lamb stood on Mt Zion.....the 144,000 sang a new song before the Throne....
Difficult as it may be for all who have been fooled by the rapture theory, you must try to read the truth in the Bible as given to us. Or else be shocked and disappointed when terrible things happen and you remain here.
I apologize if I come across as crass. I don't mean to. I just like to get straight to the point. Don't take it personally.I see we are starting off on the right Christian foot.
I assume you mean my comment about opinion. It's exactly as I said. Some things in scripture are clear, others not so much. So sometimes we're left to infer and assume things, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but we have to recognize and admit when we're doing that and not start believing our own assumptions to be fact because that could lead us down an incorrect path.Personally, I thought the letters IMO did exactly that, but who knew you would not understand them.
Now I would have said to you, LastSeven, can you elaborate a little on your comment????
Only if you can define "hour of trial" and if you can be certain to whom Jesus is speaking. Neither of which are easy to prove. So your interpretation depends entirely on two assumptions being correct. That's not exactly proof.So, anyway.......Revelation 3:10-11 has the promise of protection and is considered by many commentators to be the best exegetical proof of a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church.
It is suggested that the Greek τηρήσω means to “preserve” or “protect,” while the preposition ἐκ means “out from within.” It is emphasized that the believers are not merely promised protection from the trial, but protection from the entire hour of trial, necessitating a removal from earth to heaven.
Again, you're assuming that John was physically and entirely transported to heaven. I don't believe that's correct, as he says he was "in the spirit". So where was his body? I believe John was "transported" to heaven only in a vision or a dream. His body never went to heaven.Hence Rev. 4:1 explains that John has been translated to heaven ...............
“After these things I looked and there was a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said: ‘Come up here so that I can show you what must happen after these things.’ Immediately I was in the Spirit, and a throne was standing in heaven with someone seated on it!”
No, it's not.The mention of the trumpet, the voice, heaven, and the Spirit, as well as the implied action of John's “rapture” into heaven thus lend themselves to the understanding that the Rapture is in view.
But that is not good enough is it????
This is one huge inference. I certainly wouldn't take this argument to court. The fact is, theories abound, but we have no idea who the 24 elders are. Admit it.So then lets consider Revelation 4:4..........
"In a circle around the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on those thrones were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white clothing and had golden crowns on their heads. "
So then, WHO are the 24 Elders???
Dr. John Walvrood, Dr. J. Vernon MaGee, Dr. Oliver B. Green, and a host of others who are a lot smarter then me and you say that the twenty-four elders in heaven, is the church which was seen in 3:10-11 and 4:1 and it now verified in 4:4.
Dr. James Hinson writes writes, .......
“One of the reasons the twenty-four elders are considered to be men redeemed and rewarded is that they are pictured as having golden crowns and clothed in white clothing. This would imply that they have already been judged and rewarded, as would be the case if there had been a pre-tribulational Rapture and a judgment seat of Christ following in heaven.”
God bless you too.2 Timothy 2:15............
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Good to talk with you and may the Lord bless you!
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44
If there were any signs of tribulation the hour Christ comes for the church would be well announced, and not as a thief in the night. Therefore this event must be pre-trib, in every day times. like unto the days of Noah and Lot.
I apologize if I come across as crass. I don't mean to. I just like to get straight to the point. Don't take it personally.
I assume you mean my comment about opinion. It's exactly as I said. Some things in scripture are clear, others not so much. So sometimes we're left to infer and assume things, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but we have to recognize and admit when we're doing that and not start believing our own assumptions to be fact because that could lead us down an incorrect path.
If we believe our assumptions to be facts, then we inevitably build on those assumptions with more assumptions and we end up putting the pieces together without even knowing if the pieces are true. So that gives our theories a very weak foundation and you know what Jesus said about a weak foundation.
This also applies to the rapture theory. There is no actual scripture that says "the saints will be physically removed from the earth x years before the end of the world while the other people will stay behind to suffer tribulation", which means you're left to infer things from other nebulous verses. If that's what you're doing, that's your prerogative, but at least admit it and don't claim that the Bible directly teaches a pre-trib rapture. You may have various verses to support your position, but those verses do not prove your position. That's the difference between evidence and proof. Evidence supports a position, but proof establishes it as fact. So if all you have is evidence, don't say that you have proof.
Only if you can define "hour of trial" and if you can be certain to whom Jesus is speaking. Neither of which are easy to prove. So your interpretation depends entirely on two assumptions being correct. That's not exactly proof.
Again, you're assuming that John was physically and entirely transported to heaven. I don't believe that's correct, as he says he was "in the spirit". So where was his body? I believe John was "transported" to heaven only in a vision or a dream. His body never went to heaven.
In fact, we can be certain that his body never went to heaven because the physical does not inherit the spiritual. It's only after being transformed into spiritual beings that we can even enter into heaven.
No, it's not.
This is one huge inference. I certainly wouldn't take this argument to court. The fact is, theories abound, but we have no idea who the 24 elders are. Admit it.
God bless you too.
I plan on going up with the Saints and the 144,000 in Revelation 7. If you post tribbers prefer tribulation, I would enjoy the story when we meet together in heaven.
As a matter of fact I plan on returning with Christ post trib to reign on this earth 1,000 years. Maybe I can look you up, I would be interested to hear on how you made it through!
I plan on going up with the Saints and the 144,000 in Revelation 7. If you post tribbers prefer tribulation, I would enjoy the story when we meet together in heaven.
As a matter of fact I plan on returning with Christ post trib to reign on this earth 1,000 years. Maybe I can look you up, I would be interested to hear on how you made it through!
Then you must be a male, virgin Jew. Are you one of those now?
If not, you might want to consider some different travel plans real soon!
The Saints and the 144,000 are two different congregations. Read the fine print!
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