I apologize if I come across as crass. I don't mean to. I just like to get straight to the point. Don't take it personally.
I assume you mean my comment about opinion. It's exactly as I said. Some things in scripture are clear, others not so much. So sometimes we're left to infer and assume things, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but we have to recognize and admit when we're doing that and not start believing our own assumptions to be fact because that could lead us down an incorrect path.
If we believe our assumptions to be facts, then we inevitably build on those assumptions with more assumptions and we end up putting the pieces together without even knowing if the pieces are true. So that gives our theories a very weak foundation and you know what Jesus said about a weak foundation.
This also applies to the rapture theory. There is no actual scripture that says "the saints will be physically removed from the earth x years before the end of the world while the other people will stay behind to suffer tribulation", which means you're left to infer things from other nebulous verses. If that's what you're doing, that's your prerogative, but at least admit it and don't claim that the Bible directly teaches a pre-trib rapture. You may have various verses to support your position, but those verses do not prove your position. That's the difference between evidence and proof. Evidence supports a position, but proof establishes it as fact. So if all you have is evidence, don't say that you have proof.
Only if you can define "hour of trial" and if you can be certain to whom Jesus is speaking. Neither of which are easy to prove. So your interpretation depends entirely on two assumptions being correct. That's not exactly proof.
Again, you're assuming that John was physically and entirely transported to heaven. I don't believe that's correct, as he says he was "in the spirit". So where was his body? I believe John was "transported" to heaven only in a vision or a dream. His body never went to heaven.
In fact, we can be certain that his body never went to heaven because the physical does not inherit the spiritual. It's only after being transformed into spiritual beings that we can even enter into heaven.
No, it's not.
This is one huge inference. I certainly wouldn't take this argument to court. The fact is, theories abound, but we have no idea who the 24 elders are. Admit it.
God bless you too.
I understand and accept your explanation. I can respect your thesis as well.
Now as for "assumption". NO! I do not assume anything, ever!
You are correct in that the word Rapture is not found in the Bible. However, There is a teaching in all of educational learning that is called "Implied Truth".
That means that there is enough information available to prove a point, even if the exact words are not found.
Rapture would be one of those words. Trinity would also be one of those words. Neither is found in the Scriptures but there is overwhelming evidence that both in fact exist.
If there is a question about the truth of a statement, it might be because there is a misunderstanding about the meaning of the words, or it might be because there is a disagreement about the predictions implied by the statement and what evidence would tend to confirm or deny it. If, for example, you claimed that Fred was a heavy drinker, and I claimed that he wasn't, it might seem that we have differing opinions about how much drinking Fred does. On the other hand, we might agree on how much he drinks, but we disagree on what is meant by a "heavy drinker" until we look into his garbage can. Then implications become fact when there is enough evidence.
So then, does not evidence then become actual proof when there is enough of it. I think so!
It is important to recognize when a dispute is about definition rather than substance in order to avoid a great deal of irrelevant debate.
Having said that, it is also important to understand that God does not do things with out examples, or pictures or warnings first.
The Rapture is the same. It is not an event which just pops up in 1 Thess. and Corinthians and then Revelation. Pictures or examples of it are found all through the Bible IF one is will ing to see them.
Enoch—Genesis 5
Elijah—2 Kings 6
Isaiah—Isaiah 6
Philip—Acts 8
Paul—2 Corinthians 12
Two Witnesses—Revelation 11
Male Child (Jesus)—Revelation 12
Many who sleep-Daniel 12
May I also say to you my friend that in 1 Corinthians 10:11, speaking of some Old Testament events says..........
"Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, . ."
The word "example" is from the Greek word
tupos, which means "form, figure, or pattern." The English word "type" is developed from the Greek word and provides the basis for why Bible students coined the term "typology." Typology refers to Old Testament patterns that illustrate doctrine—usually New Testament doctrine. It is wrong to teach a doctrine from a type. Types serve only to illustrate a doctrine that is taught clearly, or directly from the biblical text.
Old Testament raptures, while not teaching the New Testament truth of the rapture of the church, do provide us with Old Testament types, patterns, or illustrations of the rapture or as I said earlier..."IMPLIED TRUTH". Thus, Enoch and Elijah stand as types of the rapture of the church. I believe that the purpose for both Old Testament and New Testament raptures come into clearer focus when seen within the framework of the covenantal protocol of recalling one’s ambassador from a distant land.
Scriptures in fact say in 2 Peter 3:11-12..........
"Beloved, I beg
you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul, having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by
your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation."
As for John. I agree completely about him being caught up to heaven in his spirit. His body was on Patmos but his spirit was in heaven and then notice what the Scriptures say in Rev. 4:1.......
"After these things I looked, and behold, a door
standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard
was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “
Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”
THEN he sees the 24 Elders in heaven!
Now again you are correct. We do not know who they are. They can be the 12 tribes of Jews + the 12 Apostles.
But when did the Christians Apostles become the Nation of Israel????
NO! They became the church!!!!
If the 12 Elders do not represent the church which I belive they do, WHO DO YOU or what do you believe they are and do you have any Biblical proof?