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Featured What was God's intent in Rev. chapters 4 & 5?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by iamlamad, Jun 18, 2019.

  1. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    It does not say "one" who is worthy.

    The angel asked "Who is worthy". He was speaking to John, the elders, and the four beasts in the assembly. The angel was asking which one of them could open the book. No-one on earth heard the question.

    There was not a search launched as a result of the question as you are saying. It was a question of who of them could be determined to be worthy enough to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof.

    And in the next verse, it specifically says "no man".

    Then in the next verse, "found" in that verse does not indicate a search was launched for someone.

    It means that of men; John, in verses 4 and 5, knew whether a man is in heaven, such as the elders or John himself, or on the earth - no man is worthy because all men have sinned.

    3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

    4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

    It was one of the elders, which were men, who were there with John, who was weeping, consoled him - by saying, " Weep not, behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."

    Jesus, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, and the Lamb of God, materialized Himself in the midst of of the four beast, the elders, and John who was there with them... from the glory of the throne of God.

    It was not as Jesus had just been slain - because the elders were there in heaven, before the throne, as a result of the death and resurrection of Jesus.

    The elders and John knew Jesus was there in heaven, which gave one of them reason to comfort John, which he could speak with confidence.


    And Jesus with that cue from the elder, "behold", materialized Himself in the midst of the fours beasts, the elders, and John - with the visual reason why He was worthy.

    The appearing as a lamb that had been slain was some sort of holographic image to his raiment. The point was being made of why Jesus was worthy.
    _____________________________________________________________

    Put yourself in John's shoes.

    You are there in heaven, millions of angels present. And 24 elders, men like yourself, and four beasts.

    A book is presented from the throne of God. And an angel says "to you and the 24 elders" in essence - which of you are worthy to remove the seals so the book can be opened.

    You know that you are not worthy. You know the 24 elders, men like yourself are not worthy, and you know that no man on earth is worthy. And because none of you or your fellows are worthy - you weep. Because the question is being asked of John and the elders there - for one of them to remove the seals.

    Then one of the elders basically replied, do not worry, although we are not worthy, Jesus is worthy. And he will unloosen the seals and open the book.

    "behold" is a cue from the elder, for Jesus to appear close to John - from the glory of the throne of God. The elders obviously included many known prophets from the old testament, and John the baptist.

    John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    Revelation 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  2. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    It's not a court case, discernment is discernment. I just don't believe you, words is the wrong way to go about convincing. There needs to be fruit.

    A good example here in the above quoted post however, is the focus on Satan, Jesus is an afterthought, stuff like that.
     
  3. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    For the overall direction of Revelation, it is to reveal Jesus as the King of Kings, Lord of Lords. It is the revealing of Jesus, in great power and glory, at His Second Coming.

    Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

    To get to that point, there is a lot that has to happen, which is in the book of Revelation as well.
     
  4. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

    3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

    4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.


    I disagree with your take on these verses. It seems John knew the angel was looking for a MAN, else why would he write, "no MAN was found...?"

    Next, John wrote that no man in HEAVEN, nor IN EARTH, nor UNDER THE EARTH was able. That tells us this angel was not just "in heaven."

    When John wrote, "no man was FOUND," that word hints strongly that the angel was searching.

    By the way, there is NO MENTION of "sin" anywhere. You ad libbed that part. If we read ahead we find out HOW Jesus became worthy: He "prevailed" over death, rising from the dead, and became the redeemer of mankind. OF COURSE before that He lived without sin. We all know that. While He was alive He was not YET "the redeemer" even though He was called "the redeemer" in the Old Testament.

    The REASON "no man was found" is simply because God is showing us TIME and the movement of time: Jesus had not yet risen from the dead when that first search was made.

    I don't think you are seeing what God's intent is here.

    It was JOHN weeping: "I wept much."

    The elders and John knew Jesus was there in heaven Pure human reasoning with nothing to base it on. You are ad libbing again. There is not even a HINT of this being truth.

    You are missing the entire intent - which is to show us the first seal was opened in 32 AD as soon as Jesus ascended.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  5. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    I disagree: the throne room of heaven is certainly a court room with God the Father on the throne as a judge. Thank God He is a FAIR judge. And we have Jesus as our advocate!

    "Focus on Satan.." Did you not count how many times "the Dragon" is mentioned in chapter 12? I did: the count is 32 times! I believe Jesus when He said to me: "Chapter 12 was Me Introducing John to the Dragon. Count how many times he is mentioned, including pronouns." Like it or not, chapter 12 is about the Dragon, not about Jesus. HOWEVER, Jesus also said to me, "I CHOSE to show John how the Dragon tried to kill Me as a young child. those first five verses were a 'history lesson' for John."

    Michael, I think I will believe Jesus own words to me rather than your take on these things.
     
  6. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The angel was not looking for some-one. No one on earth heard him say - who is worthy to open the book. The angel was asking of them there, the 24 elders and John, which of them was worthy to unlock the seals and open the book.

    When God finds men guilty of sin.... does it mean that God is doing a search looking for men who had sinned?

    No, it means, not a search, but a determination of guilt.

    No man is determined worthy - because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. No man can go to heaven on his own self worth.

    Then who are the four beasts, with John and the 24 elders with crowns on their heads, in heaven are speaking about?

    Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

    9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

    10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

    11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    _____________________________________
    Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

    _______________________________________________________________

    lamad, have you ever considered, that when Jesus returned to heaven, that he remerged with God beyond comprehension at the throne, so that the form seen upon the throne is Jesus? And that the "right" hand was to emphasize that it was Jesus upon the throne?

    1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  7. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    You're right, you didn't say Jesus is the rider on the white horse, but ...

    I won't take the time to exegete how the church is the body of Christ; which is Christ. But you are essentially saying it is Christ going out to spread the gospel.

    I have a different point to make, however.

    Here, you (mostly, with one exception) agree with most scholars and commentators that the seals in Rev. 6 parallel the first few verses in Matthew Chapter 24, the Olivet Discourse.

    Virtually everyone agrees with the understanding that:

    Matthew 24:4-5 "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many ..."

    parallels Revelation 6:1-2 "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

    Matthew 24:6-7 "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: ..."

    parallels Revelation 6:3-4 "And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: ..."

    Matthew 24:7-8 "... and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, ..."

    parallels Revelation 6:5-6 "... A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny;..."

    Matthew 24:9-14 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake."

    parallels Revelation 6:7-8 "And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death ..."​

    In other words, Jesus wanted us to know that the first four seals represent four calamities brought upon the earth at the start of the tribulation. False christs, wars, famines and death appear as parallels in both accounts.

    You, apparently, are the only Christian I know of who takes a hard left turn at the first seal and makes it the church (Christ) going down to spread the gospel. Which is interesting considering that the first seal specifically says (in the Matthew parallel) that the rider on the white horse will sow deception and that there will be counterfeits saying they are Jesus.

    What's interesting is that when I searched for any authoritative doctrine supporting your theory about the first seal the only one I came up with is one espoused by the Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Their theology is extremely convoluted and confusing as well, but basically they have baked into their theology the belief that the first seal represents The Word (Gospel, Jesus Christ) descending to earth.

    As to the white horse ... I won't take the time to exegete how often Satan counterfeits Jesus, but mimicking Jesus is EXACTLY the point of the white horse that the antichrist rides in Revelation 6:2.

    Following the parallel with Matthew 24:4-5 we can see how successful Satan has been in fooling people into believing he is Christ just because he rides a white horse in the first seal.

    Imagine any bible-believing, born-again, spirit-filled Christian being that gullible, huh?
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  8. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Doug, have you ever considered that God's word is TRUTH - absolute truth?

    Acts 7:55
    But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

    Acts 7:56
    And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

    Romans 8:34
    Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    Ephesians 1:20
    Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

    Colossians 3:1
    If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

    Hebrews 1:3
    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

    Hebrews 1:13
    But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

    Hebrews 8:1
    Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

    Hebrews 10:12
    But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    Hebrews 12:2
    Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    1 Peter 3:22
    Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

    These verses are GOD SPEAKING: He was telling TRUTH for He IS truth.
    Jesus went to be AT THE FATHER'S RIGHT HAND. IF John had seen into the throne room of 95 AD just as Stephen had years before, we could guess he WOULD HAVE seen Jesus at the right hand of God: we have over a dozen verses telling us that. This is why we know John was seeing a vision and it was a vision of the past.

    Another truth: in chapter 4 God ON PURPOSE showed John a vision of a time when Jesus was NOT "at the right hand of God." Jesus said to me:

    . “I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. The first question then, why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four?”

    Even Jesus Christ, the head of the church is acknowledging that He was NOT seen at the right hand and since He asked me why, then in His mind there must be a reason.

    For some unknown reason, you are not content to believe what is written; you must imagine He was there but for some reason NOT SEEN. The AUTHOR has made it very clear that FOR SOME REASON Jesus was not seen. I know this reason for He told me: it is a vision of the past: at this moment in time Jesus was STILL ON EARTH.

    No one on earth heard him say - who is worthy to open the book. This is not written. One could imagine such a thing, but the truth is, we don't know. What we DO know is that no one on earth was found.

    When God finds men guilty of sin.... does it mean that God is doing a search looking for men who had sinned?
    No, it means, not a search, but a determination of guilt.

    Your point is a side step: but this is TRUTH: the angel was seeking someone who could take the book and open the seals. John did not mention sin at all. You may be starring at a tree: and not seeing the forest: this is GOD introducing John to THE BOOK. He chose to show John the book while it was still in the hands of the Father - for that seems to be the beginning of the story. This was 95 AD. The book was in the hands of the Father in 31 AD and perhaps before. Therefore God HAD to show John some history - while the book was still in the hand of the Father.

    No man can go to heaven on his own self worth. This is a truth, but it has nothing to do with our discussion - so another side step.

    Then who are the four beasts, with John and the 24 elders It seems these are permanent residents of the throne room. God chose to include them in the vision. After all, Ezekiel also saw the four beasts. The main point here is that Jesus SHOULD HAVE been seen at the right hand of the father, but was not. This is therefore a KEY point.

    It is OK if you disagree. But if you miss the intent of the Author here, chances are very good you will miss His intent on the first seal.
     
  9. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    I would recommend that strongly. I was merely saying why I didn't accept your words as coming from God.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  10. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    Revelation when usually applied, it is a cause of confusion. Since God is not an author of confusion, keeping it to thesis (Jesus) is important.

    The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. (Revelation 19:10)
     
  11. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I was not asking you who the four beasts were or are. I was asking you who those four beasts were speaking about in the worship of that person, in Revelation 4:8-11?
     
  12. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    The TRUTH is, Jesus returned to heaven to sit at the right hand of Power on high. We are his body on earth to do finish His work. It is the church who is taking the Gospel to the nations, AT HIS BIDDING. He is the HEAD. Remember those words, "go therefore...?"

    Here, you (mostly, with one exception) agree with most scholars and commentators that the seals in Rev. 6 parallel the first few verses in Matthew Chapter 24, the Olivet Discourse.
    Ha! Finally I agree with you!

    Matthew 24:4-5 "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many ..."

    parallels Revelation 6:1-2 "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

    I doubt this statement. This is not the true parallel.
    Here is a true parallel:

    Mat. 24:
    ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [Still church age events]

    7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

    8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

    And in Rev.

    Rev. 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

    This verse speaks of WAR.

    5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

    6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

    This verse speaks of FAMINE.

    8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

    The Beasts are "(diminutive) a small animal..." so could well be things like the black plague.

    There is therefore a definite parallel, but the deception is not paralleled in the trumpets. in other words, "virtually everyone" is mistaken.

    the first four seals represent four calamities brought upon the earth at the start of the tribulation. It is a theory, but it does not fit the context of chapters 4 & 5. It is a theory formed by pulling a verse out of its context. It seems "virtually everyone" is willing to do this.

    Have you really - I mean REALLY studied this verse?

    "And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death ..."
    Did you just overlook that the first seal is NOT INCLUDED?
    "to kill with the sword" = the Red horse and rider or 2nd seal
    "to kill with hunger" = the Black horse and rider who brings famine.
    "To kill with Death" = the pale horse and rider was TITLED "DEATH."

    As you can see, the first seal is left out - and for good reason, for He does not ride with these. These are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the gospel. Of course they failed.

    Question: do you imagine that the Beast will be limited to one fourth the earth? I don't.

    Rev. 13:
    7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him


    Sorry, but the 1/4 of the earth is for these three riders theater of operation to stop the gospel. It has nothing to do with the Beast. It is church age while the Beast is at the end of the age.

    As to the white horse ... I won't take the time to exegete how often Satan counterfeits Jesus, but mimicking Jesus is EXACTLY the point of the white horse that the antichrist rides in Revelation 6:2.
    Ha ha! I hope you realize what you are really saying: that the Antichrist Beast got to chose HIS OWN COLOR! : -))) Never never never happen! GOD chose His color as fiery red! He used white for righteousness. How could ANYONE imagine God would use white for righteousness 16 times in this book, and then use it for evil once? Never never never happen!

    Therefore your argument fails.
     
  13. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Ah! I guess I missed that.

    8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
    9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

    10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

    11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


    They are speaking about the Godhead. That would include God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. We cannot say that ONLY the second person of the Godhead created all things: it was the GODHEAD who created all things.
     
  14. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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  15. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Okay, go to Revelation 1:4, as John was beginning to address the reader.

    Look at this person...

    4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

    John was speaking about Jesus. Jesus in the gospels says he came "forth" from the Father, and was going to return to the Father.

    What I am trying to impress upon you Jesus has re-merged with the Father - on the throne of God. Standing and sitting at God's right hand are idioms to indicate the righteousness and power of Christ.

    The four beasts and the elders in Chapter 4 were worshiping Jesus who had remerged with God the Father. You can say that they saw the God-head. But if they did then they had to be seeing Jesus.

    Jesus was there. He didn't have to come from earth. He manifested himself to John who was weeping, to weep not, as the Lamb of God from the throne of God - He was worthy to remove the seals and open the book.
     
  16. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    Lamad, I'm going to have to bow out of this conversation. My heart is feeling chilled by your intransigence, and the only things that are left for me to say are prohibited by the TOS of this forum.

    It was fun for awhile, until it wasn't anymore. And I must heed Matthew 7:6. Unfortunately, I believe we have come to that point.

    Goodbye.
     
  17. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    You call them "idioms;" I call them scripture. Stephen SAW Him at the Father's right hand so that proves it is scripture, not an idiom.
    I can agree, people who have been in the throne room and came back to tell us have SEEN Jesus walk right into the Father and the two become one. But then they saw Him walk right out of the Father and become two again. Of course, since they are ONE they can be together. However, for 32 years they were NOT together. That is the point I have been trying to get YOU to see.

    Your argument does not answer why the Holy Spirit was seen there, or why the search ended in failure. it is the ENTIRE context that must be understood.

    I asked before; I will ask again:

    In your mind, is there even a VERY SLIGHT possibility that God's intent was that Jesus was NOT SEEN because He was on the earth at that moment in time? Perhaps 1%? Perhaps .05%?

    Is there even the slightest possibility that "no man was found" simply because at that time Jesus had not yet risen? 1%? .05%?

    I am sorry, but I have to take HIS word for this. HIS word outweighs yours in my mind. He spent HOURS (over the period of weeks) trying to get me to find the answers to His three questions. Finally He sent me to chapter 12 to find the answers. You don't believe Him on chapter 12 either!

    I say He was NOT there until chapter 5 when He suddenly appeared.
    We don't agree. Nothing new there!
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Do you believe a man existed before creation? Which obviously no man existed before creation.

    So how is said that Jesus created everything there is?

    What I am trying to impress upon you is that being the Son of God, means before creation, God coming forth from Himself to create everything. And that coming forth expressed in terms we can understand is the Son of God.

    Which is God as the Lord of Heaven - who is perceivable to creation.

    Otherwise, no one, not the angels, the living beasts, mankind - no-one can relate to God... because God is beyond comprehension and unexplainable.

    But God has taken the steps to make it possible for us to relate to Him without being burden with the impossiblity to explain God, or comprehend Him, by coming forth in a form that creation could perceive Him. And God went one step further by relating to us in the form of a man, when he entered this world and became known to us as Jesus.

    Can we comprehend God? No. Can we know God? Yes. Because God made it possible. And that should be our desire, to know God, and to know about God, and His desire of us.

    And what I have been trying to get you to see is in the text, the 4 beasts and the elders were worshiping Father, Son, Holy Spirit on the throne in Revelation 4 - which means Jesus was there.

    Your idea that Jesus was missing from heaven until the one elder said "behold" in Revelation 5:5-6... is wrong. Jesus was there the whole time.
     
  19. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Right, no man existed before Adam, unless there was a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. (Some people believe in this gap for a previous creation. i don't.)
    The creation made simple:
    God the Father WILLED the Creation
    God the son SPOKE the creation.
    God the Holy Spirit performed the creation.
    All were involved.
    For sure Jesus spoke everything into existence that exists. He was THE WORD before anything existed.

    Don't forget, we are created in His image and after His likeness.

    Sorry, it does NOT mean "Jesus was there." There is no distance in the realm of the spirit They could worship Jesus as the SON while He was on earth.

    Why do you make this so difficult. God could WELL have shown Jesus in the throne room at the right hand of the Father. He chose NOT TO. So far you have no clue as to why. I know why because He told me.

    Again I would ask you; how would YOU have told it? God wanted to introduce John to the book, but He chose to start while the book was still in the hand of the Father. It should be very obvious that was before Jesus ascended. We can easily read that as soon as Jesus "appeared" (I used that word for your benefit: he did ascend after sending Mary away) He took the book and began opening seals. You seem to think He STILL has not take it! No, John is showing us that as soon as Jesus ascended He took the book. That is God's purpose in chapters 4 & 5: to establish the TIMING of the first seal.

    The book is a legal document from the court room of heaven. God could not send out the church into Satan's world UNLESS someone was found to open that first seal. It was that important. Of course, Satan could not start after the church until the 2nd, 3rd and 4th seals were opened.

    the point is, the seals MUST GET OPENED if God is going to get Satan off his throne as god of this world.

    Your idea that Jesus was missing from heaven until the one elder said "behold" in Revelation 5:5-6... is wrong. Jesus was there the whole time.
    Is is a theory you cannot prove. You can only imagine. The text is on my side of this.
     
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