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Featured What was God's intent in Rev. chapters 4 & 5?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by iamlamad, Jun 18, 2019.

  1. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Sorry, I was thinking you mean VERSES 4 & 5.

    It is OK if you don't see these two chapters as I do. Just know that if you don't get this part right, chances are VERY GOOD you will get the rest wrong also.

    Case in point? The first seal was opened as soon as Jesus ascended. (He HAD to ascend to get from earth to heaven.) In other words, the meaning you assign to the first seal MUST fit in the 32 AD timing - or you will be mistaken.
     
  2. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Jesus was seen standing at the right hand of Yahweh when Stephen was stoned in Acts.
    Explain that............

    Stoning of Stephen against the Law

    John 10:33
    Answered Him, the Judeans saying,
    "About a good work not we are stoning Thee, but about blasphemy, and that Thou, being a man, are making thyself a god".
    [Romans 2:23/Revelation 16:11-21]

    Acts 6:10 And not they were strong/iscuon <2480> (5707) to withstand to the Wisdom and to the Spirit to which he talked.

    Acts 7:1
    And the High-priest said, "are these things so?"

    54 Now when they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed upon him with their teeth.
    56 and said, "behold! I see the heavens having been opened/ διηνοιγμένους<455>
    and the Son of Man standing out of rights of the God!"

    Acts 7:56 Commentaries:

    Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

    56. the Son of man] This title, which in the Gospels is only used by Christ when speaking of Himself, is here first employed by another, and can fitly be so employed now, for the prophecy which Christ uttered of Himself (Matthew 26:64), “Hereafter ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power,” is now fulfilled, and its fulfilment is to be preached to the world.
    =========================
    Bengel's Gnomen
    Acts 7:56. Ἰδοὺ, Behold) A confession of faith flowing from a present experimental proof. [From this very moment the eternal life shone upon Stephen more strongly than heretofore.—V. g.]—θεωρῶ, I see) It was not the province of his enemies to see, but to believe, if they had had faith.—τοὺς οὐρανοὺς, the heavens) This expresses more than heaven, in Acts 7:55.—τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, the Son of man) Luke in the preceding ver. calls Him Jesus. Not Luke, but Stephen, saw Jesus. Comp. note on Matthew 16:13 as to the appellation, Song of Solomon of man. [An appellation which none but Christ employed, and of Himself during His life. Nor is it found in the twenty-one Epistles.] The article refers to Daniel 7:13. As Adam is the representative of all his fallen offspring; so Jesus, the second Adam, is the representative-man of all the redeemed sons of men, sustaining their rights and primogeniture. 1 Corinthians 15:47; Hebrews 2:11, where the article is not added, the words being those of David, not Paul. It expresses His manifested state, both the past one in lowliness, and the present and future one in exaltation, as Stephen sees Him, and as He shall appear.

    =================
    MacLaren's Expositions
    Acts

    STEPHEN’S VISION

    Acts 7:56.

    I. The vision of the Son of Man, or the abiding manhood of Jesus.

    Stephen’s Greek name, and his belonging to the Hellenistic part of the Church, make it probable that he had never seen Jesus during His earthly life. If so, how beautiful that he should thus see and recognise Him! How significant, in any case, is it he should instinctively have taken on his lips that name, ‘the Son of Man,’ to designate Him whom he saw, through the opened heavens, standing on the right hand of God! We remember that in the same Council-chamber and before the same court, Jesus had lashed the rulers into a paroxysm of fury by declaring, ‘Hereafter ye shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power,’ and now here is one of His followers, almost, as it were, flinging in their teeth the words which they had called ‘blasphemy,’ and witnessing that he, at all events, saw their partial fulfilment. They saw only the roof of the chamber, or, if the Council met in the open court of the Temple, the quivering blue of the Syrian sky; but to him the blue was parted, and a brighter light than that of its lustre was flashed upon his inward eye. His words roused them to an even wilder outburst than those of Jesus had set loose, and with yells of fury, and stopping their ears that they might not hear the blasphemy, they flung themselves on him, unresisting, and dragged him to his doom. Their passion is a measure of the preciousness to the Christian consciousness of that which Stephen saw, and said that he saw.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  3. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    To answer the thread subject question, you need to go a little further in Revelation, it says the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy, so if you think you know what it is about ... and it isn't about Jesus ... then it's totally off the bullseye.
     
  4. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.​

    Specifically, where in these verses does it say that Jesus arrived? Where is there any Scriptural support that the ands don't indicate contiguous timely actions?

    You are inferring that because John didn't see Him earlier He wasn't there. But, the absolutely undeniable fact is that Jesus is the one who called John up to the throne room in the first place. So He was definitely already there. Why is it so hard to understand that John just failed to notice The Lamb through his tears in the midst of the throne and the elders and the beasts?

    BTW, you meant "implying." They imply, we infer.

    That aside, where does it literally say another search was made? Can't it have been, "No man was found," then, "Oh, here's somebody."

    All of a few seconds ... no implying in the text anywhere that Jesus needed to leave the throne room, jump 2,000 years into the past, descend to earth, get born, conduct His 3-year ministry, be crucified, and then be resurrected so He could rush right back to the throne room, jumping ahead 2,000 years just in time for the elder in the next breath to say, "Here He is."

    Lamad, you simply cannot back up your timeline theory with Scripture without making inferences of flashbacks and huge segments of time that simply do not exist in the text.

    Look up what comprises good biblical hermeneutics. One of the main principles is that when the plain reading of a text makes sense look for no other sense. Your reading of Rev. 5, inserting flashbacks, etc., literally makes no sense. It's all made up.
     
  5. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Absolutely I am inferring that when John did not see Him at the right hand of the Father, that is EXACTLY what God wants us to get out of that: He WASN'T THERE because at that time He was on the earth.

    This is FURTHER PROVED when "no man was found. This shows us that Jesus had NOT YET risen from the dead.

    It is not just one verse, it is ALL the verses together that tell us the story. if you don't wan to see this, it is OK.

    And I wept much, How much is much? It could be days or at least hours.
    And one of the elders saith Just the very fact that when before NO MAN was found and not Jesus was found tell us TIME passed. How long would it take angels to search heaven, then earth, then under the earth?

    And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb It is a fact of the text and what God wants us to see: Jesus was NOT there and then WAS there

    OF COURSE it makes sense. Again I asked, if YOU were to write about the book that WAS (past tense: history) in the Hand of the Father years before 95 AD, and it was now 95 AD, how would YOU write it so the reader would know it is about the past? I guess you just don't like the way God wrote it.

    It is obvious that you don't understand the implications: this book is a LEGAL document created in the court room of heaven. God COULD NOT send out the church with the gospel UNTIL someone prevailed to open that first seal. Opening that seal (the FIRST thing Jesus did when He ascended) gave God the LEGAL RIGHT to send out the church with the gospel into Satan's world. That is how important this book was and is and is why John wept much: He KNEW it was extremely important.

    Now, if you want to imagine that the seals are still not opened, that is between you and God. You will find out the truth soon enough.

    Question, can you see ever a SLIGHT possibility that God's intent in chapter 4 in Jesus NOT being seen at the right hand of the Father was that Jesus was NOT THERE? Is there a 1% chance?

    Jesus first question to me: .“At the time John saw this vision, I had been back in heaven for years. There are more than a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. The first question then, Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4?”

    I could not answer it. I don't wonder then that you struggle with it. One thing is sure: God had a REASON to show the throne room and Jesus NOT seen at the right hand of the Father.

    Thanks for the English lesson!

    Why is it so hard to understand that John just failed to notice The Lamb through his tears in the midst of the throne and the elders and the beasts?
    Here YOU are implying something the text does not specify.

    He was definitely already there. OF COURSE He was there in 95 AD when He called John up, but you cannot say that for when John saw the throne and the FAther on the throne but did NOT see Jesus at the right hand of the Father.

    Why would God show the throne with the Father and Jesus NOT there? You must come up with a REASON God does not waste words.

     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  6. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    I disagree: the BOOK with 7 seals is about the BOOK, not about Jesus directly. However, only JESUS was found worthy to open the book.
     
  7. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    If you disagree that it's all about Jesus, I guess you have nothing valuable to offer then. Mr Christian Prophet Guy.
     
  8. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Is the BOOK "Jesus?" Is Jesus "the book?" These are two separate things but of course BOTH are mentioned in Revelation. And again, ONLY JESUS was found worthy to open the book.
    If you choose to IGNORE everything in Revelation that is not "Jesus" you will miss much of the book.
     
  9. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    The books opened up on Judgment day are the hearts of the people being judged, reading revelation literally sometimes results in amusing results.

    The book only Jesus was able to open, was this His heart? hmmm I'll pray on it.
     
  10. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    This is not difficult: John said it was a book sealed with 7 seals. When we read ahead we see that is is most likely the lease document of planet earth.
     
  11. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    Sounding awful certain for a most likely.
     
  12. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    When the book gets opened and the 7 trumpets sound (they are inside the book) then Satan loses his place and prince of this planet and is then kicked down from his place of authority.

    Did you ever wonder WHY at that moment in time? I am convinced that it is because Adam's 6000 year lease ENDS and suddenly the lease that Satan usurped is GONE: he has no more legal rights to earth.
     
  13. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    Jesus mentioned something about seeing Satan fall from heaven in the gospels.

    That being said, it's not so much about Jesus but more about Satan and Adam now. So I'd need to conclude the spirit guiding you is not of truth. Try again tho.
     
  14. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    Wow! I finally get it! I can't believe I missed where all of your confused theology is coming from.

    I see that what you have done is backed into the story around Chapters 4 and 5 based on a serious misinterpretation of the beginning of Chapter 6. You HAVE to make up that timeline theory in the previous chapters in order to justify your misunderstanding that the rider on the white horse is Jesus Christ bringing the gospel to the world.

    Here's the problem for you Lamad ... the rider on the white horse with the opening of the first seal is not Jesus Christ, but the antichrist. And he is CERTAINLY not riding to bring the gospel to the people of the earth!

    I highly recommend you do a complete re-evaluation of your eschatology. You had made comments in the "Which is the most accurate text" topic:

    I agree whole-heartedly. That is excellent advice. And I believe that doing so would help put you back on track to accurately understanding the pertinent chapters in Revelation.
     
  15. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Revelation chapters 4 and 5 is just a description of what John saw of Heaven in the spirit. There is no indication that he was taken back in time. The book seen in the right hand of God is a book that only Christ, represented by a lamb possessing death wounds in this case, is worthy to open. Most will agree that the opening of the seven seals is the beginning of the terrible judgments that are to take place on the earth at the start of the Tribulation that is to come.

    It is also possible that the breaking of these seals may represent the act of Christ taking back the title deed to the earth that Satan stole from Adam when he, and Eve before him ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that God had told them not to eat from.

    That one act of Adam’s disobedience placed the dominion of this present world into the hands of Satan (hence why Satan is called the god or prince of this world).
     
  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    There are many times that I just sit back, read, observe, as the discussion takes place in a thread.
     
  17. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    CONTEXT, my friend, context! What was the context in the gospels? Jesus had sent out the 12 to cast out devils, and they returned rejoicing that the devils were subject to them. Then the day came he sent out 70, and they too cast out devils. This was TOO MUCH for Satan and he had to come and see first hand. THAT, my friend is why Jesus said He saw Satan fall. He was not talking about in the beginning of time.

    Please show us all what I have written that would lead you to believe I am not being led by the Holy Spirit. In detail, please.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
  18. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    It's not a bad pastime! Do you pop some popcorn?
     
  19. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    OF COURSE there is an indication of history! John saw a throne room where Jesus was absent, he watched a search for one worthy that ended in failure, and he was the Holy Spirit in the throne room when Jesus said He would send Him down. This is THREE indications.

    Then when Jesus suddenly appeared that is the 4th indication or perhaps the proof of the three.

    "Most" are mistaken, pulling the first seals out of their first century context. WHEN did Jesus send the Holy Spirit down?

    The first seal is the church sent out with the gospel. The 5th seal is the martyrs of the church age. People are still being added.

    It is also possible that the breaking of these seals may represent the act of Christ taking back the title deed to the earth that Satan stole from Adam
    Now you have hit the nail squarely on the head! Good Job. I am convinced the "book" contains the 70th week of Daniel, and the events written after the 7th seal is open is what is written inside the book. As soon as it is open, the trumpet judgments begin, and when the 7th has arrived, Satan loses his place as the god of this world.
     
  20. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Confused? Confused theology? You had better rethink that statement for what I have written is truth. Which means what you think is not the truth, else you would not make such a statement.

    No, I did not "back" into it. When I was studying chapters 4 & 5, I was asking God for help. He asked me three questions I could not answer. Before the questions He said these two chapters show "TIMING" and the "MOVEMENT OF TIME."

    Perhaps, since you disagree so much, YOU would like to answer His questions. I can certainly show you all three questions.

    the first seal is not Jesus Christ I have NEVER said this! Go back and read! Jesus is the one opening the seal! No wonder you disagree! You don't read well.

    Please answer: HOw could a seal opened in 32 AD represent the Antichrist? You are pulling that seal out of its context. HOW can you get the color white to represent evil when John used it 16 other times to represent righteousness? Is that good exegesis?

    It seems you have just been listening to many others that don't know the truth.

    Why not do a REAL study in the first seal? Look up John's 16 other uses of "white."
     
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