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Featured What was God's intent in Rev. chapters 4 & 5?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by iamlamad, Jun 18, 2019.

  1. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    You and I are not going to see these verses the same until we meet over there.

    Here is Jesus, the most important personage of the entire bible from Genesis to maps, and you IMAGINE He is there but just "not seen."

    Can you come up with ANY reason why God would show John a throne room with the most important personage of the entire bible NOT SEEN?

    My friend, it makes FAR MORE Sense that God is telling us a story: first Jesus not seen for the reason He is still on earth, then the Holy Spirit there to show that Jesus was still on earth and had not yet ascended to send Him down, then a search for one worthy that ended in failure because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead - to a search where He WAS found worthy and finally to Him suddenly appearing back in the throne room.

    This follows the story of Jesus in the gospels: left heaven to be born of a virgin, started His ministry at 30, absent from heaven but present on earth, died, was buried, rose from the dead, then ascended back to the same throne room He had left 32 years before.

    I used to sing the song, "out of the ivory palaces, into a world of woe..."

    It is OK that you don't see this the way I see it: one day you will be taught in heaven as I was taught here, and then we will agree.
     
  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    He is seen, but not as the Lamb slain, while on the throne.

    ________________________________________________

    When Jesus returns to earth in Revelation 19, is He on the throne? No he is not.

    In Revelation 6, the sixth seal, is Jesus on the throne.... or before the throne seen as a Lamb? When Jesus comes forth from the throne, he is seen as the Lamb, before the throne.

    Just as Jesus came forth from the throne, to appear in the midst of the elders and John, back in the first century, as a Lamb. When the events of the sixth seal take place, in our time, Jesus will come forth from the throne, and will appear before the throne - as a Lamb, and the entire world will behold Him.

    16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

    17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    Revelation 6:16-17, the sixth seal, is in the future, at the end of the 7 year 70th week. No man is hiding himself in fear from Jesus at present, nor back in the first century.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  3. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    NOT! When He is (finally) seen as the lamb having been slain, but now resurrected. He is then seen taking the book and opening the seals.

    He ascended to appear there. That is the point God was making with Him NOT being seen at the right hand of the Father.

    WONG again. How can anyone miss God's chronology so thorougly? The 6th seal is the START of God's WRATH and the START of the 70th week will come soon after, EXACTLY as John as written it.

    Just so you know, the vision of the throne room starts around 32 AD and progresses through time. the Red horse and rider, the black horse and rider, and the pale have been at work throughout the church age trying to stop the gospel. They have failed. But due to their work, people are being added to the MARTYR count it would seem daily. That is where we are now, still adding to the martyrs.

    Soon the pretrib rapture will come, the age of the church will end, the Day of the Lord will start with the opening of the 6th seal, and judgment will begin.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
  4. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    No, it does not say "finally", and it does not say "resurrected" in the text when he is in midst of the elders and John, in your claim of having just come from the earth. He had not just come from the earth. He came forth from the throne.

    Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    What it is indicates in Revelation 4:8-11 is that they are worshipping Jesus on the throne. "which was, which is, and is to come" is a direct reference to Jesus in Revelation 4:8. It means Jesus lived and died, but came back to life, and will be returning to earth

    Similarly, that same type of language convention is said referring to the beast - who once was alive, but is dead, but will come out of the bottomless, and of the end times person he is going to possess.

    8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    Jesus was right there in heaven the whole time in Revelation 4, 5, 6.

    He did not come from earth in Revelation 5. He does not come from earth in the sixth seal, Revelation . He comes forth from the throne of God appearing as a Lamb, Revelation 6:16, and the whole world will see Him before the throne of God in heaven, when the cosmos rolls back like a scroll (Revelation 6:14).


    Stephen, at the moment of his about to leave this world, saw Jesus not on the throne, but before the throne at God's right hand. Differently, them in Revelation 4 saw Jesus on the throne and were worshipping Him.

    You cannot accept what is directly in the text of Revelation 4:8-11, that it is Jesus there in heaven the whole time, being worshipped. And he did not come from earth, having just ascended. He came forth from the throne.




     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
  5. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    No, it does not. John was an old man when he heard the voice come up hither, from Jesus in heaven, on the throne.
     
  6. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    You are missing some words to explain what you mean. Maybe you meant God's wrath? You may have typed it that way, but auto-correct "feature?" changed it to "earth". I have that happen to me all the time... so I correct nearly all of my posts. Plus my own mistakes in typing.

    The 70th week does not begin with men saying...

    15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

    16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

    17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    It is at the end of the 70th week, when the earth sees Jesus before the throne of God, the sign of the Son of Man appearing in heaven in Matthew 24:30.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
  7. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Why are you claiming them in the fifth seal are the martyrers down through the past 2000 years - and not including them martyred during the great tribulation? You don't think Jesus when He returns is going to take vengeance for the martyred great tribulation saints, of their deaths?

    lamad, you are trying to place the events of the first five seals in a historic context. But it doesn't work.
     
  8. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    I'm guessing you and I are likely on the same page about the first 6 seals, or at least somewhat close. I'm sure we don't see it all exactly the same, but maybe close enough anyway. With that in mind, there is still the 7th seal. I for one don't see the events recorded after the 7th seal is opened, chronologically following the events of the 6th seal. Yet what happens after the 7th seal is opened, eventually leads to the events of the 6th seal. What then is your interpretation of the 7th seal, in relation to the first 6 seals?


    I tend to see the first 6 seals as an outline of events of sorts, where one thing leads to another. With the 6th seal being at the end of all of these events, and that the 6th seal includes the 2nd coming. This indicates to me, that a chapter such as Revelation 13 and the 42 month reign of the beast, this occurs during the 5th seal and the little season the martyrs under the altar are told to rest until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. IOW, this same little season runs parallel with the 42 month reign of the beast.

    There is also a little season mentioned in Revelation 20. Me being Premil and all, I don't see these two mentions of a little season being one and the same though.
     
  9. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We are specifically told not to do that.
     
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I don't either. The 7th seal in Revelation 8 begins the trumpet judgments in the middle part of the 70th week.

    The sixth seal events are around 42 months later, near the end of the 70th week.

    Exactly.
     
  11. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I agree.

    To refine it, the person claims to have achieved God hood a few months before the exact midpoint of day 1260.

    On day 1185 the Abomination of Desolation image of him is placed in the temple. I get that from day 2520 - 1335 days = 1185.

    That's 75 days before the exact midpoint of day 1260; and the martyring begins, as the Jews begin fleeing out of Jerusalem into the mountains - as the two witnesses are giving them cover to do so.

    On day 1260, the two witnesses are killed by the beast, and 3 1/2 days later ascend to heaven, leaving this world.

    That leaves 42 months that the beast rules unimpeded by the two witnesses which will be gone during that time. And the martyring continues as you have pointed out during that 42 months.
     
  12. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    What about the 7th trumpet then? Wouldn't that place the 7th trumpet at the midpoint of the 70th week, rather than at the end of the 70th week instead?

    Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    Why would the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ, at the midpoint of the 70th week, rather than at the end of it instead? How can Christ begin reigning forever and ever, at the midpoint of the 70th week, when it is the beast that will begin reigning at the midpoint, for 42 months in this case?
     
  13. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Agreed, John did not write the word "finally," but then, show us a verse before that in chapter 4 or 5, where He WAS seen. The truth is, "finally" fits because HE WAS NOT SEEN.

    One thing is sure, He did not suddenly appear as a dead body! He was not dead: He went and took the Book from His father's right hand. Therefore "resurrected" also fits the scene John has painted for us.

    He came forth from the throne. human reasoning with NOTHING to back it. As you said, that is not written; it is therefore assumed out of thin air. I have scripture to back what I say: Jesus NOT SEEN, and NO MAN found worthy. These tell a story that so far you have completely missed.

    slain from the foundation of the world. This is, of course, what was PLANNED from the foundation of the earth. It did not become reality until 32 AD.

    Revelation 1:8
    I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. This is Jesus speaking in 95 AD. It is repeated twice in chapter 1. At that time "he is." John probably saw a VISION of Jesus, since Jesus was in heaven and later called John up.

    At that time "He was" also, which could refer to Him before He took on flesh, or after He took on flesh but before He died. And in 95 AD He still is to "come." In chapter 4 the beasts and elders are just repeating this. It is repeated 3 times in Revelation. I think this part of your argument is VERY WEAK. The three are ONE. A praise can be for one of them or for all three persons of the Godhead since they are ONE.

    Your argument goes against the more than dozen verses that state unequivocally that Jesus ascended to sit at the Father's right hand. And that is proven literal because Stephen SAW Him there.

    You are stuck on trees, not seeing the forest: in these two chapters God has drawn for us a picture. The entire picture is to point to the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. It makes perfect sense looking at it as a vision of the past. It sets the timing of the first seal.

    they are worshipping Jesus on the throne. They are worshiping GOD on the throne, and "God" certainly includes Jesus.

    is a direct reference to Jesus in Revelation 4:8. Also a direct reference to Jesus in chapter 1.

    Jesus was right there in heaven the whole time in Revelation 4, 5, 6. Then you must explain away all dozen mentions of Jesus at the right hand of the Father. You must explain away WHY "no man was found." I choose to just believe it as written and believe His intent as He told me. I am ALWAYS going to be what He said to me versus what you are saying. First, He is the Head of the Church. He is the AUTHOR of the bible. I am going to take His word over yours.

    He did not come from earth in Revelation 5. Computer is messing up: will have to post and complete later.

    John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    John 20:17
    Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

    As soon as Jesus sent Mary away, He ascended.

    YOU KNOW that as soon as Jesus sent Mary away, He ascended.
    You know that as soon as Jesus ascended, He sent the Holy Spirit down.

    Rev. 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    Here is the same thing as show in John 16 and John 20, by the same author: But you don't think verse 6 is telling this story.

    It is OK, preconceptions can be so strong, people miss the entire content intended. As I said, I am going to take HIS WORD over yours.

    You cannot accept what is directly in the text of Revelation 4:8-11 You are not accepting the Author's intent of the entire passage. So what's new?
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
  14. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Dave: it is very simple: the 6000 year lease on earth given to Adam runs out at the midpoint of the 70th week.
    At that same time, the man of sin will enter the temple and declare He is the God of the Jews. At that same time, the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven, so all in heaven will know, the abomination has happened and says of great tribulation are soon to follow.

    If you notice, in 12:6 we see the fleeing because they have just seen the abomination. 12:6 is perhaps a few seconds after the abomination event and the 7th trumpet.

    Rev. 11:1-2 is real time, perhaps just days before the man of sin will enter the temple. It is the man of sin entering Jerusalem. He will arrive with Gentile armies who will trample the city for 42 months.

    Next, (11:3) and exactly 3.5 days before the midpoint, the two witnesses show up. They begin their testimony (1260 days) which will take them to just 3.5 days before the end of the week. they are killed and lay dead those 3.5 days and are resurrected with the rest of the Old Testament saints "on the last day," which will be at the 7th vial.

    Then, 11:4 through 11:13 are a parenthesis.

    Next, when these 3.5 days are done, the man of sin will enter the temple, and the 7th trumpet will sound, marking the midpoint of the week.

    Note: If people miss that 11:4 through 11:13 are a parenthesis, they come up with silly ideas, like the two witnesses are in the first half of the week. No, almost all of their testimony will be in the last half.

    How can Christ begin reigning forever and ever, at the midpoint of the 70th week

    The kingdoms of the world are stripped from Satan and given to Jesus. HE now becomes the Prince and God of planet earth. Satan is then cast down. Jesus, as the God of this earth, has both the power and the authority to now give 42 months of authority to the Beast, which He will do.
     
  15. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    I disagree. That little season ends up being the entire church age. To God that IS a "little season." These are the martyrs of the church age. They are asking when their murders will be judged - so they are really asked WHEN God will end GRACE and turn to judgment. We find the answer in the very next verse: judgment begins at the 6th seal.

    Note carefully, this is before ANY of the 70th week - for the week begins at the 7th seal.
    You already KNOW I disagree with your taken on the 1335. IT is an added 45 days past the added 30 days which are added onto the last 1260 days. You will find out when you arrive.
     
  16. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    This is all myth: the seals seal the BOOK but when the 7th seal is opened (8:1) then the BOOK is opened and the trumpet judgments begin. They fill up the first half of the week, but the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint.

    It seems you try to open the book, which contains the 70th week, before all of the seals are open. The truth is, NO TRUMPET will sound, until the BOOK is opened and the book will not be opened until the 7th seal (the last of 7) is opened. So the 70th week BEGINS in 8:1 with the 30 minutes of silence.

    Just leave things written in the order John wrote them! His chronology is God's chronology and is the exact order these things will come when they come.
     
  17. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    NO, we are told not to add or take away from the book of Revelation.
     
  18. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    If you must rewrite Revelation to fit your theory, then it is GUARANTEED your theory is at fault!

    ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will always be proved in error.

    The problem is, you missed God's intent in chapters 4 & 5 that establish the TIMING of the first seal. Notice in chapter 5 that Jesus suddenly appears in the throne room WITH the Holy Spirit and then sends the Holy Spirit down. This happened in 32 AD when Jesus ascended. The first seal then is the church sent out with the gospel. Remember His words: "Go ye therefore.."

    Seals 2 through 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the church, using wars, famines, pestilences etc.

    Seal 5 is the martyrs of the church age. Stop for a moment and think: any 70th week martyr would know they only have to wait out the rest of the 7 years. On the other hand, Stephen had NO IDEA how long the church age would last. They are told they must wait for the total number of church age martyrs to come in.

    When will that be? It will be when the pretrib rapture ENDS the church age. What comes after the 5th seal? The 6th seal begins the judgment they were asking about. Paul's rapture will come a second or so before the great earthquake at the 6th seal.

    Note: God "marked" the 70th week with 7's: the 7th seal begins the week and the 7th vial ends it.

    Note: John has 5 parallel paths from the midpoint to the end: He must keep track of each of these PLUS His own timeline as he writes. John gives us 5 countdowns to the end all starting near the midpoint:
    1. The 42 months of trampling
    2. The 1260 days of testifying.
    3. The 1260 days of fleeing.
    4. The 3.5 years of supernatural protection.
    5. The 42 months of authority.

    make no mistake here: while the 42 months of authority is counting down, the 3.5 years of protection is also counting down, and the 1260 days of fleeing is counting down, and the 1260 days of testifying is counting down, and the 42 months of trampling is counting down. Then all end near the 7th vial that ends the week. However, the 42 months of authority started last and will end last.
     
  19. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    It is SO SIMPLE: at the time of the 5th seal - CHURCH AGE - no days of GT has or will come. The church age will END 3.5 years before any days of GT.

    by the time Jesus comes, the beheaded will have already been resurrected and enjoyed their time with Jesus at the marriage and supper.

    God's vengeance begins at the 6th seal and continues on through the entire week. And Jesus still has wrath when He fights at Armageddon, and when He frees those who fled, and when He captures the Beast and False prophet.
     
  20. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Sorry, I did mean "wrath" and have corrected it. Sometimes my mind thinks one word and my fingers type another.

    You can rearrange Revelation to fit your theory - but I will not do it. I already know that ANY theory that requires one to rearrange is in error.

    God's order is the correct order. John wrote it God's way.

    TIME moves on as each seal is opened. from the first seal in 32 AD to the 7th seal still ahead of us. So SOMEWHERE in the seals must be where we are now. We are at the 5th seal because martyrs are still being added and the Day of His wrath has not yet started.

    AFter the pretrib rapture, the Day of the Lord (wrath) begins. the 7th seal is opened and the book is now opened. (time keeps moving.) PROBABLY it will be 10 days between the 6th seal and the 7th. I think the rapture will come on the final trumpet blast at the feast of trumpets, and then the ten days of awe will come, and then the 70th week will begin with the trumpets. This is God's order and it is the same order these things will come.

    I agree that Jesus comes at the 6th seal, but for the RAPTURE and remains hidden in the clouds. I think they IMAGINE His face. Paul seemed to think He would stay in the clouds. John wrote that He would then take us all to heaven.
     
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