Historicist Only They’re Only Fooling Themselves

[Jerryhuerta]

Considering that we are dealing with “The Revelation of Jesus Christ” in the last book of the Bible, the fifth seal can only be rendered as the last judgment of the Church. Christ is not the mediator of the Old Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24). Futurists and Preterists are only fooling themselves that the seven seals pertain to the Old Covenant people. The martyrs in the fifth seal are “slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held,” which refers to the Church, not the Jews that rejected Christ.

Revelation 4-5 mirror the judgment scene in Daniel 7 and represents the antitypical seventh month in the Hebraic cultus calendar, which is concomitant with what is revealed to the martyrs in response to their enquire,

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (Revelation 6:10-11)​

The response is that the saints must endure a final judgment before judgment is meted out upon “them that obey not the gospel of God” (1 Peter 4:17). Again, futurists and Preterists are only fooling themselves; the seven seals pertain to the final judgment upon the Church, not the Old Covenant people.

The point is that the NT affirms there is a great falling away in the last days, and apostasy calls for judgment upon the Church in the last days,

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? (1 Peter 4:17-18)​

Again, the house of God that Peter addresses the Church, not strictly the biological descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob under the Old Covenant.

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. (1 Peter 2:5-6)​

No argument prevails against the truth that the Church is judged for its apostasy in the last days. Amos affirms Revelation prophesies about that judgment because “GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.”

Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. (Amos 3:7)​

 

[keras]

Considering that we are dealing with “The Revelation of Jesus Christ” in the last book of the Bible, the fifth seal can only be rendered as the last judgment of the Church.

Nonsense.
Revelation 6:9-11 is quite clear; it tells us how God honours those who keep their faith unto death. All those faithful Christian peoples, from Stephen, the Christians killed by the Romans, those killed in the Inquisition, ongoing to today; with the girl shot at Columbine for refusing to reject her Christianity.
Persecution of Christians will continue until Jesus Returns.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Nonsense.
Revelation 6:9-11 is quite clear; it tells us how God honours those who keep their faith unto death. All those faithful Christian peoples, from Stephen, the Christians killed by the Romans, those killed in the Inquisition, ongoing to today; with the girl shot at Columbine for refusing to reject her Christianity.
Persecution of Christians will continue until Jesus Returns.

You aren't a historicist keras; why do you think the rules don't apply to you?

Regarding the issue of persecution, the NT affirms there is a great falling away before Christ returns, which calls for judgment. The fifth seal is about a final judgment when God allows great persecutions against his people because of their apostasy, a trail illustrated by the four horsemen. It's called great tribulation in Revelation.

 

[RandyPNW]

Considering that we are dealing with “The Revelation of Jesus Christ” in the last book of the Bible, the fifth seal can only be rendered as the last judgment of the Church. Christ is not the mediator of the Old Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24). Futurists and Preterists are only fooling themselves that the seven seals pertain to the Old Covenant people. The martyrs in the seal are “slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held,” which refers to the Church, not the Jews that rejected Christ.

Jerry, please bear in mind that not all Futurists are Dispensationalists! Dispensationalists tend to separate the age of Gentile Christianity from the future age of Jewish Christianity. I don't agree with this, nor do many other Futurists.

I do embrace a Millennial restoration of the Jewish People into Israel. But I similarly embrace a restoration of all Christian nations who like Israel have fallen on hard times. Jesus is coming back to restore them all!

So the 5th Seal was something John wrote for the 7 churches in Asia Minor, and certainly not just for the Jews who had been under the Old Covenant. And Christian Jews certainly will not be returning to the Old Covenant, nor will any Jews in the coming Kingdom, as I see it.

OT symbols are used in OT prophecy primarily as symbols of NT truth because in the time the prophecies were given the OT Law was still in play, and it would be wrong to imply that Covenant could be circumvented at that particular time. OT symbols that refer to NT times are purely symbolic, as I see it.

Revelation 4-5 mirror the judgment scene in Daniel 7 and represents the antitypical seventh month in the Hebraic cultus calendar, which is concomitant with what is revealed to the martyrs in response to their enquire,

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (Revelation 6:10-11)​

I agree. The throne room scene seems similar to the Son of Man appearing before God's throne, just prior to his descent from the clouds.

The response is that the saints must endure a final judgment before judgment is meted out upon “them that obey not the gospel of God” (1 Peter 4:17). Again, futurists and Preterists are only fooling themselves; the seven seals pertain to the final judgment upon the Church, not the Old Covenant people.

I don't see the time of Antichrist's Reign being a "judgment upon the Church," nor a "judgment" as such. It is a time of testing during which people either embrace Christ or Antichrist--it tests the hearts of people. Judgment follows these choices.

The point is that the NT affirms there is a great falling away in the last days, and apostasy calls for judgment upon the Church in the last days,

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? (1 Peter 4:17-18)​

I agree. Apostasy has always been a part of the history of the Church. And we can see it intensify after Christian Europe had been established as such.

The Enlightenment, in particular, was a time when a foundation was laid for Antichristian Apostasy. One of its foremost authorities, Peter Gay, described the intellectual movement as anti-Christian at its core. Gay was not writing this as a Christian at all. He likely was not, since he was born into a Jewish family.

Again, the house of God that Peter addresses the Church, not strictly the biological descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob under the Old Covenant.

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. (1 Peter 2:5-6)​

No argument prevails against the truth that the Church is judged for its apostasy in the last days. Amos affirms Revelation prophesies about that judgment because “GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.”

Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. (Amos 3:7)​

I would assume that if God judged His ancient people, Israel, He will also judge the fallen Christian nations. But yes, those of us who walk with the Lord, from whatever nation, are liberated from the coming Wrath of God.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, please bear in mind that not all Futurists are Dispensationalists! Dispensationalists tend to separate the age of Gentile Christianity from the future age of Jewish Christianity. I don't agree with this, nor do many other Futurists.

I do embrace a Millennial restoration of the Jewish People into Israel. But I similarly embrace a restoration of all Christian nations who like Israel have fallen on hard times. Jesus is coming back to restore them all!

So the 5th Seal was something John wrote for the 7 churches in Asia Minor, and certainly not just for the Jews who had been under the Old Covenant. And Christian Jews certainly will not be returning to the Old Covenant, nor will any Jews in the coming Kingdom, as I see it.

OT symbols are used in OT prophecy primarily as symbols of NT truth because in the time the prophecies were given the OT Law was still in play, and it would be wrong to imply that Covenant could be circumvented at that particular time. OT symbols that refer to NT times are purely symbolic, as I see it.

I agree. The throne room scene seems similar to the Son of Man appearing before God's throne, just prior to his descent from the clouds.

I don't see the time of Antichrist's Reign being a "judgment upon the Church," nor a "judgment" as such. It is a time of testing during which people either embrace Christ or Antichrist--it tests the hearts of people. Judgment follows these choices.

I agree. Apostasy has always been a part of the history of the Church. And we can see it intensify after Christian Europe had been established as such.

The Enlightenment, in particular, was a time when a foundation was laid for Antichristian Apostasy. One of its foremost authorities, Peter Gay, described the intellectual movement as anti-Christian at its core. Gay was not writing this as a Christian at all. He likely was not, since he was born into a Jewish family.

I would assume that if God judged His ancient people, Israel, He will also judge the fallen Christian nations. But yes, those of us who walk with the Lord, from whatever nation, are liberated from the coming Wrath of God.

I thought you admitted you weren’t a historicist the last time you posted on my “for historicists only” thread.

You’re not a historicist because you interpret the “antichrist” as a person and not an institution.

Historicists see the antichrist as an institution, not a person. They see the beasts in Revelation as the papacy, an institution that endures 1260 years before it’s wounded, which matches the history of the papacy.

According to historicism, the beast in Revelation illustrates the papacy, and if you don’t believe that, you shouldn’t be posting here.

What makes you ignore the rules? Are you above the rules?

Why can't you respect my choice to debate with other historicists? I don't want to argue whether the beast is a person or an institution. There are other issues that historicists debate about, which is what I'm interested in.

 

[RandyPNW]

I thought you admitted you weren’t a historicist the last time you posted on my “for historicists only” thread.

You’re not a historicist because you interpret the “antichrist” as a person and not an institution.

Historicists see the antichrist as an institution, not a person. They see the beasts in Revelation as the papacy, an institution that endures 1260 years before it’s wounded, which matches the history of the papacy.

According to historicism, the beast in Revelation illustrates the papacy, and if you don’t believe that, you shouldn’t be posting here.

What makes you ignore the rules? Are you above the rules?

Why can't you respect my choice to debate with other historicists? I don't want to argue whether the beast is a person or an institution. There are other issues that historicists debate about, which is what I'm interested in.

I'm sorry Jerry. I'm used to responding to any and all comers on the threads I was following. I'll try to pay attention to the orange labels indicating "Historicist Only." Honestly, I don't do this to bother you. No, I'm not the kind of historicist you would call a historicist. I'm a Futurist with Historicist elements in my eschatology.

I will "unwatch" this thread, and will hopefully recognize in the future when a thread is "Historicist Only." Please be patient with me. I'll eventually get it.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The Seventh Trumpet, Revelation 11:15-19, is a prophecy of what will happen when Jesus does Return. It is a prolepsis, as it obviously does not happen at that time, as there is still to come; the 7 Bowls.
Proved by the earthquake and terrible hailstorm of Rev 11:19, paralleled by Revelation 16:18 & 21

Sure; we who call upon the Name of the Lord, will be saved. Joel 2:32, Romans 10:13, Acts 2:21
As many scriptures tell us; saved by being protected, NOT removed.
2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knows how to rescue His godly people from trials........Isaiah 43-2, Psalms 23:4

So, you admit God uses prolepses in the Revelation. You’ve learned something new, but you're still in darkness. You fail to grasp the seven vials “are the wrath of God,”

And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. (Revelation 16:1)​

You’re still blind to the fact that the wrath parallels the dead in Christ receiving their reward, the resurrection illustrated in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. That’s how the elect are delivered from the wrath (Romans 5:8-9; 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9).

This is also supported by the seven angels in Chapters 14 and the seven with the plagues in 16. In 14, there are seven angels; the first three warn of the final events of the judgment, which begins at the house of God. Then Christ is witnessed coming in the clouds, and a fourth angel calls on him to reap the harvest, which parallels the separation of the wheat from the tares in Christ’s parable,

And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. (Revelation 14:14-16)​

The harvest is gathered with the aid of three more angles. Then there is an interlude in the next chapter where John sees the seven angels having “the seven last plagues” and the saint who had “gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God” (Revelation 15:1-2). The “sea of glass” was introduced in Chapter 4, and it isn’t on earth.

After the harvest is finished, the seven angels with the seven vials filled with plagues are told to pour them out in Chapter 16. There is no doubt for those with eyes that see and ears that listen that when the wrath comes, the saints are caught up in the air and are “delivered from the wrath to come.”

 

[keras]

You’re still blind to the fact that the wrath parallels the dead in Christ receiving their reward, the resurrection illustrated in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. That’s how the elect are delivered from the wrath

You still ignore the plainly stated Prophecy that tells us that the only people resurrected when Jesus Returns, will be the martyrs killed during 3 /12 years of world Satanic control. Revelation 20:4-6
The rest of the dead must wait until the thousand years is over. It would be advisable to have beliefs which conform to scripture.

The final 3 1/2 years is also the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.
The wrath of God is over after the Seven Bowls. Revelation 15:1
Note; that in Revelation 12:14, the faithful peoples of God will be kept in a safe earthly place, for that time.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

You still ignore the plainly stated Prophecy that tells us that the only people resurrected when Jesus Returns, will be the martyrs killed during 3 /12 years of world Satanic control. Revelation 20:4-6
The rest of the dead must wait until the thousand years is over. It would be advisable to have beliefs which conform to scripture.

The final 3 1/2 years is also the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.
The wrath of God is over after the Seven Bowls. Revelation 15:1
Note; that in Revelation 12:14, the faithful peoples of God will be kept in a safe earthly place, for that time.

You’re confusing tribulation with wrath; the saints come out of tribulation, not wrath,

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands… Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. (Revelation 7:9, 14-15)​

These are the saints illustrated in chapter 20:4-6. The distinction between the wrath and the great tribulation is affirmed in Revelation 11:15-18 and 14-16. Christ returns in the clouds and reaps the harvest before the wrath of God is poured out. The saints stand on the sea of glass in the heavens while God’s wrath is poured out on the earth in Revelation 16. First Thessalonians 4:16-17 backs the proper way of distinguishing between tribulation and wrath.

Scripture tells us the elect are not appointed to God’s wrath; they are delivered (Romans 5:8-9; 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9).

Your division of the word is confusion, like your rendering of the seventy weeks after the confusion of dispensationalism. Your beliefs do not conform to scripture. Your renderings conform to fables (2 Timothy 4:1-4).

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT

This thread had a clean up for 2 reasons. One is that the level of snarkiness in the posts increased as it went on. There were lots of posts with 'accusing you' statements. There were posts claiming certain endtimes beliefs as heresy, Satanic deception or doctrines of demons and such.

That is not okay.

Second, is that this thread is tagged "historicist only". That means it is for Historicists only. Some basic information about Historicism is here:

Historicism (Christianity) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

​