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Featured What was God's intent in Rev. chapters 4 & 5?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by iamlamad, Jun 18, 2019.

  1. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  2. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    I would start with what it is like in God's court. a thousand years here is a day there. If transported in vision to His courts, time is no longer relative to earth while there. Given the multi-dimensional aspect of God's ability to not only convey a message via word, but thoughts, and vision, it is like a movie played before you in 3D. where time is only a point, a moment of an event, so that you can understand the development.

    Since God works within His plan of salvation, it also means He is working within the framework of His laws. The one set of laws that are prophetic are the feasts. The feasts contain a feast of trumpets which start out the fall feasts. They are key to His way of presenting what will transpire.

    I think another key is Ch. 10 where the scroll is eating and understood. I believe that the two witnesses are the two who have eaten the scroll and they will be able to give us the play by play of last day events. Two witnesses are needed to start the fall feasts which the first one is the feast of trumpets/.
     
  3. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  4. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  5. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    He ate a DIFFERENT book.
     
  6. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Who said I could not see things like the seals? I am only saying that chapters 4 & 5 set the CONTEXT for the seals - hence their timing. It was written for God's people, Jew and Gentile alike.
    The bulls eye is 32 AD when Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.
     
  7. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    I could not disagree more! Revelation is in perfect chronological order, as much as is possible to write. In other words, events of a given chapter will take place AFTER the events of previous chapters and BEFORE the events of later chapters. However, from chapter 11 on, John is keeping track of 6 (count them: 6) parallel paths the the end: it is impossible then for those to be in "order." However, it seems that the 5 paths to the end have a staggered beginning so John puts the start of each countdown in proper order.

    Then John has some parentheses that are outside of the chronology, such as 12:1-5 which is talking about Christ's birth.

    Agreed: the letters in chapters 2 & 3 were present tense for John in 95 AD. So was John being caught up in 4:1. however, AFTER He is caught up, does John see the throne room of 95 AD, or does John see a VISION of the throne room of 32 AD?
     
  8. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Again I could not disagree more. God wanted to introduce John to the book with 7 seals. It is VERY important because once it gets opened it will be a countdown (trumpets 1 to 7) to when the kingdoms of the world are taken from Satan and he will no longer (and never again) reign as the spiritual leader or prince of this planet.

    However, this book is sealed with 7 seals - some of which make it legal for God to do certain things, and some of which make it legal for the devil to do some things. however, the seals MUST be opened if Satan is to be cast down.

    A search is made for one worthy to open the seals - John watched it and saw that it ended in failure. However, some time later, in a subsequent search, Jesus was found worthy. (He had just risen from the dead to BECOME worthy to take the book. Next, John saw Jesus suddenly appear back into the throne room which He had left 32 years before. He immediately got the book and began opening seals.

    Seal one gave God the legal right to send the church out to the world. (Remember, it is a legal document created in heaven's court room.)

    SEals 2 through 4 gave Satan the legal right to start wars, famines, pestilences, to STOP the church.

    Seal 5 is for the church age martyrs. We are still waiting for that final martyr so this is where the church has been for many years.

    Seal 6 starts the wrath of God, so the rapture must come just before the 6th seal.
    The 7th seal officially starts Daniel's 70th week. Now the book can be opened and the trumpet judgments begin.

    It is not different vantage points: John is stepping right through time: HIS time (and some history before His time - with the start of the church age) then to events still future to us today. The seals make it possible for the BOOK to be opened. The book contains the 70th week of Daniel. The 7th seal is the START of something, not the ending. the 7th trumpet is the HIGHLIGHT of the 70th week, when finally, after 6000 years, Satan is cast down, and God gets His planet back!

    After the trumpet judgments, then The vials come, and finally the week ends at the 7th vial. It seems Jack Hayford missed it.
     
  9. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    This is a good rendition of man's theories and reasoning's. But sorry, it does not fit the text. John was certainly "in the Spirit" but He was NOT transported 2000 years into the future to see the Day of the Lord (Still future to us.)

    It was 95 AD when He was called up. But we have to pay attention to what he SAW:
    1. A throne room where Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father.

    Now, why would God show John a throne room with the SON absent? I say it was to show us TIMING.

    2. A throne room with the Holy Spirit present.

    Now, why would God shows us a throne room with the Holy Spirit there - when we KNOW Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended?

    3. A search for one worthy to take the book and open the seals - that ended in failure.

    Now, WHY would God show us (John first) a search to find someone worthy to take the book, yet no man was found? Why?

    All this was God setting the CONTEXT for the first seal, so we could get it right. It shows us TIMING and the movement of time.

    To end out this scene (it had to be a vision) John then saw the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. Jesus then got the book immediately and began opening the seals. No one can find 2000 years there because it was not the will of God. He was showing us that the first seal was opened as soon as Jesus ascended.

    Seal one then is the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL. That happened in 32 AD, not something in our future.

    Seals 2 through 4 are about Satan's attempts to stop the church: world wars, famines, pestilences - but nothing worked: the gospel broke through his gates! Again, these things started in the life of Paul! Satan was the god or prince of this world and was not just going to step aside and allow the gospel to go out.

    John DID see a vision - or several visions:

    Revelation 9:17
    And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

    If someone was seeing a vision, they could certainly say "I saw..."

    Therefore I disagree with you.
     
  10. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Isaiah 6:1
    In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lordsitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

    Ezekiel 1:26
    And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

    Ezekiel 10:1
    Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne

    God does not hide His throne from those in the throne room, or even those on earth to which He chooses for them to see.
     
  11. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    All I can say is, you are going to be SHOCKED when you find Revelation beginning to come to pass, starting with the 6th seal.

    Did you ever wonder if you might have it wrong - that Jesus is just about to come for His church - as multiplied millions of believers are expecting?

    I wonder, have you ever taken "dictation?" Jesus began dictating messages a few years ago: I read one yesterday:

    Message given by the LORD, to ***** on Sunday, June 16, 2019:

    Here is MY Message: Children, this is your GOD. Do not grow weary in watching for MY return. It is a prerequisite to being ready. Watchers are also preparers. They prepare their gowns even as they are watching. A watcher is looking forward and not looking back. Backsliders have no interest in preparing for MY Coming because they feel there is nothing worth preparing for and this is why watching is so important to ME and it should be to you. The times are dark and becoming darker every day—Each day should give you great expectancy of MY Return as you see MY Words coming to pass. Each dark event should indicate that MY return is drawing nigh. Why does the lukewarm church chase broken dreams down dark alley ways and run from the truth? Because the world holds them hostage and their cravings are for evil. They want to hold hands with a dark lover and run from MY Truth, raging all the way. They are like spoiled children who want to play in the dark because they are driven by their own will apart from the Will of GOD. Their will is bent on destruction and if they don’t change course soon, they will be destroyed by their own selfish ambitions. My selfless church knows that it is the empty lamp that holds the most oil! Come bring ME your lamp now to receive a filling. Prepare! Watch! Make way for the coming of the LORD in the sky: to call out the church HE loves! Watchers are lovers of GOD. Their eyes are set on truth and they are seekers of righteousness. MY Word is their guidebook, MY SPIRIT is their GUIDE. I AM THEIR SALVATION and COVERING. And they will not be overlooked when I cry out for MY own to come up hither! Their lamps will shine bright and they will stand out from the crowded darkness. Return to ME, come on bended knee. Let ME show you ALL TRUTH, let ME brighten your robe, let ME fill your lamp with the OIL of GLADNESS. It is time. Watch, Prepare, and Shine for your GOD!

    Of course you can do with this whatever you wish.
     
  12. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Since we don't know ANYTHING of God before He began with Adam, how can you know? Perhaps His throne always was. However, perhaps heaven WAS created: if so, He has always been the Lord of heaven since He created it.

    Is that better?
     
  13. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    No, I never thought that and still don't.
    Futurist seem to want the day of the Lord to come upon the Jews again.....I like to think God accomplished that in the 1st century on them. But if you want to believe it is sill future, that is ok by me. I already have a place in heaven with the Lord reserved for me regardless.......

    Amo 5:18

    Woe to you who desire the day of the LORD!
    For what good is the day of the LORD to you?
    It will be darkness, and not light.

    Who were the adversaries of Jesus in and aroundJudea? The corrupt murderous Judean Rulers! Unfortunately, 100s of thousands of innocent Jews were also "sacrificed" in the slaughter of 70ad.

    Isaiah 61:2 was fully fulfilled in the 1st century................

    Jer 46:10
    For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts,
    A day of vengeance, That He may avenge Himself on His adversaries.
    The sword shall devour; It shall be satiated and made drunk with their blood;
    For the Lord GOD of hosts has a sacrifice In the north country by the River Euphrates.

    "DAYS OF VENGEANCE" Isaiah 61:2 and Luke 21:22 Revelation

    Isaiah 61:2
    To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh
    ,
    And the day of vengeance<5359> of our 'Elohiym, To comfort all mourners.

    Luke 4:
    17 the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. Unrolling it, He found the place where it was written:
    21 and He began by saying,
    Today this Scripture is fulfilled<4137> in your hearing.”

    Luke 21:
    22 That days of vengeance<1557> these are, of the to be fulfilled<4130> all the having been written
    23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
    For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath<3709> upon this people.

    Revelation 19:2
    “For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication;
    and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.”

    https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
    "..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
    ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM


    The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

    History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived ; the solemn warnings and admonitions which they hold out to all nations, but especially such as are favoured with the light and blessings of REVELATION ; together with the impressive and terrific grandeur of the events themselves -- are circumstances which must always insure to the subject of the following pages more than ordinary degrees of interest and importance..............

    Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
    The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ; and had actually eaten one half thereof, when the soldiers, allured by tile smell of food, threatened her with instant death if she refused to discover it. 'Intimidated by this menace, she immediately produced the remains of her son, which petrified them with horror. At the recital of this melancholy and affecting occurrence, the whole city stood aghast, and poured forth their congratulations on those whom death had hurried away from such heartrending scenes. Indeed, humanity at once shudders and sickens at the narration, nor can any one of the least sensibility reflect upon the pitiable condition to which the female part of the inhabitants of Jerusalem must at this time have been reduced, without experiencing the tenderest emotions of sympathy, or refrain from tears while he reads our SAVIOUR'S pathetic address to the women who " bewailed him" as he was led to Calvary, wherein he evidently refers to these very calamities : "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but for yourselves and fur your children ; for, behold, the days are coming in which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the breasts that never gave suck." Luke xxiii. 29.

    The above melancholy fact was also literally foretold by Moses : "The tender and delicate women among you (said be, addressing Israel) who would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil . . . toward her young one . . . which she shall bear," and "eat for want Of all things, secretly, in the siege and straitness wherewith, thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates." (Deut. xxviii. 56, 57.)
    ===========================
    Revelation 18:
    8 Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows,
    death and sorrow and famine.
    And in fire She shall be utterly burned<2618>,
    that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  14. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    I'd be pleased if you could show in this text, or any other text, where John saw Jesus ascend.

    I've asked this before, and your answer was that we have to infer it. But, my ability to infer from whole cloth is a little on the weak side in this regard. I'd have to suspend belief about what the text actually says. It would help if you could show some Scriptural support for your theory.

    The reason why I don't think there is any inference possible here is because Revelation 5:1-11 is an unbroken string of verses beginning with "And ..." all in the same time frame, all occurring in the same place, before the throne.

    Also, as I have already elaborated at length, Chapters 4 and 5 are one continuous event in time and space. It begins with Jesus in the throne room beckoning John to come up. The beginning of Chapter 5 is joined to the end of Chapter 4 with the conjunction "And ..." So Jesus is already there, because there is no text saying otherwise.

    Without repeating that I just have to imagine it, show me text supporting your timeline theory, particularly that there is some imaginary 2,000-year flashback after verse 4 where Jesus popped down to earth, was born, held his 3-year ministry, and was crucified, then popped back up to greet John in verse 5.

    All I ask is you properly exegete that period of time between 4 and 5, instead of insisting on eisegeting it.
     
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Good post and I agree with most of it.

    A good translation can help properly provide a good exegete.
    I am in the process of reviewing the threads I have from 2008 as the amount of online Greek resources have become more numerous.
    Never ever rely on just 1 Bible version..........One can view 5 of the major Greek texts along with some Bible versions [I was shocked at the number of variances in both]

    Greek New Testament - Parallel Greek New Testament by John Hurt


    Here are Chapts 4 and 5 for those interested:

    Revelation Chapter 4 verse by verse

    The word for "trumpet" is only found in Matthew of the Gospels and used twice all the other times it is used in the Epistles and Revelation.

    Revelation 4:1
    After these I looked and Behold! A door having opened in the heaven, and the sound/voice, the first which I hear, as of trumpet talking with me saying:
    "Ascend hence! and I shall be showing to thee which-things is binding to be becoming after these.

    TexRec) Revelation 4:1 meta tauta eidon kai idou qura hnewgmenh en tw ouranw kai h fwnh h prwth hn hkousa wV salpiggoV laloushV met emou legousa
    anaba wde kai deixw soi a dei genesqai meta tauta

    Rotherham) Matthew 6:2 When, therefore, thou mayest be doing an alms, do not sound a trumpet/salpishV <4537> (5661) before thee, just as, the hypocrites, do in the synagogues and in the streets--that they may be glorified by men,--Verily, I say unto you, they are getting back their reward.

    {ISA} Matthew 24:31 and He shall be sending His messengers with a trumpet/salpiggoV <4536> sound, great, and they shall be upon-together-gathering the out-called-ones of Him out of the four winds, from extremities of heavens till the extremities of them.
    ====================
    Revelation Chapter 5 verse by verse

    Hand seems to be inferred in this verse as it only appears as "right/rights" without the word "hand".

    Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

    Revelation 5:1
    And I saw on the right of the One-sitting on the throne a scrollet having been written within/inside and without/outside having been sealed to seals seven.

    http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

    ByzMaj) Revelation 5:1 kai eidon epi thn dexian tou kaqhmenou epi tou qronou biblion gegrammenon eswqen kai exwqen kat-esfragismenon sfragisin epta

    Matt 23:27 Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees hypocrites that ye are resembling sepulchres having been whitewashed who-any outside/exwqen <1855> indeed are appearing beautiful within/eswqen <2081> yet the are being crammed-full/replete of bones of dead-ones and of all uncleaness

    1855. exothen ex'-o-then from 1854; external(-ly):--out(-side, -ward, - wardly), (from) without.

    2081. esothen es'-o-then from 2080; from inside; also used as equivalent to 2080 (inside):--inward(-ly), (from) within, without.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  16. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    All I can say is, you are going to be shocked. And you will be left behind to face the same wrath of God that the world is going to face.

    Why not just believe in God's escape plan? Luke 21:36
     
  17. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    After all the Greek studies, they pretty much say what most English translations say. We just need to believe what they say.
     
  18. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    I believe in Christ and Yahweh. How would I get left behind?

    Besides, I do have an escape plan..........;)

    Crumpled Clothes on Sidewalk after Rapture?

    Isa 22:1
    Here is a message about the Valley of Vision:
    What is the reason that all of you go up to the rooftops?

    Eze 33:27

    “Say thus to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD:
    As I live, surely those who are in the ruins shall fall by the sword,
    and the one who is in the open field I will give to the beasts to be devoured,
    and those who are in the strongholds and caves shall die of the pestilence.
    =========================================
    Jesus gave these instructions for the 1st century pre70ad Jewish Christian Apostles in Judea:

    "WHERE THE BODY is, there the EAGLES be gathered" Matt 24 Luke 17-- and Revelation

    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

    Mat 24:
    17 “Let him who is on the housetop<1430> not descend to take away<142> anything out of his house.
    40 “Then two shall be in the field: one be taken<3880> and one being left.

    Luk 17:
    31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away.
    And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back.
    35 Two shall be grinding at mill. The one shall be taken<3880> and the other shall be left.



    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  19. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Perhaps He did not see the ascent, but he saw the arrival AFTER the ascent. Thanks for pointing that out. He saw the sudden arrival of Jesus back in the throne room.

    God is telling the story with as few words as is necessary and time passes:
    A search was made for one worthy - and "no man was found."

    Later, inferring another search was made, someone WAS found. This shows us time passing.

    How much time passed from Jesus resurrection to Him sending Mary away to Him ascending? God is telling the story many years later, briefly. God did not need to break this story up.

    Jesus entire life is written in one verse in Rev. 12:5. It should not bother anyone then that the time of His resurrection and ascension is written in a few verses. The "and's" time the story together nicely.

    4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

    5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

    6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.


    Readers: keep in mind these verses must be understood in their context of Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father and the Holy Spirit seen in the throne room.

    In verse 4 the word "found" tells us there was a search. The fact that John wept much and the words "no man was found" tells us that this search ended in failure. This verse tells us that AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME there was no redeemer anywhere; not in heaven, not on earth and not under the earth. What this really tells us is that Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to BECOME the redeemer. I have always said these chapters are showing us TIMING.

    In verse 5 we see that "Jesus prevailed..." OK, over WHAT did Jesus prevail? IN CONTEXT it can only be that He prevailed over death; He rose from the dead. This is also showing us the MOVEMENT of time, from a time BEFORE Christ rose to a time AFTER He rose.
    Now, after the resurrection, Jesus has become worthy to take the book. Remember, the story is about THE BOOK.

    The next point God chose to make is to get Jesus back in the throne room so He can TAKE the book and begin opening the seals. God also made the point that the moment Jesus entered the throne room (from His resurrection on earth: INFERRING an ascension) He sent the Holy Spirit down.

    Remember, this is a book written with many symbols. Still, this is not that difficult. Well, I can't even say that. When God Himself asked me His three questions on these chapters, I could not answer even one for weeks of intense study. God had to send me to chapter 12 to find the answers.

    If anyone wishes to try those three questions, I am repost them.
     
  20. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    If it wasn't truth, perhaps it would be funny! Except we will fly right through the roof as if it was not there. That is, all those who are WATCHING will....
     
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