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Featured What was God's intent in Rev. chapters 4 & 5?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by iamlamad, Jun 18, 2019.

  1. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Jesus was not on earth. He was on the throne, verse 10.

    Revelation 4:8-11 does mean Jesus was there because "was, is, and is to come" can only apply to Jesus, in verse 8. Jesus created everything, which verse 11 can only apply to Him.

    Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

    9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

    10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

    11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
    _______________________________________________

    lamad, your rationale is busted.
     
  2. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    You can IMAGINE it was Jesus on the throne but you will be wrong. I guess that is OK with you. But WHAT will you do with the dozen or so verses that tell us Jesus ascended to sit at the RIGHT HAND of God? In other words, every time someone saw the throne, they should see Father God ON the throne, and Jesus at His right hand - EXACTLY as Stephen saw it.

    Jesus as the Messiah and Redeemer is the MAIN THEME of the entire bible - yet somehow you IMAGINE He is in the throne room and invisible! You amaze me. It is A VISION and God can do whatever He wants in a vision. He COULD have made Jesus visible in the throne room, if that was what He wanted. You are missing the entire meaning of these two chapters intended by our Lord and God!

    HIS POINT is not that Jesus COULD be there but hidden - But that God the Father was there but Jesus was not. (One reason Jesus might not be seen at the right hand of the Father is simply because He is NOT THERE.)

    If people miss this first point, God re-enforces it by showing a search for one worthy and "no man was found." This is God's second clue that goes right over your head.

    HIS reason Jesus was not seen is because HE WAS NOT THERE. His reason "no man was found" is because Jesus had NOT YET RISEN FROM THE DEAD.

    If people miss the first two points, God NAILS IT in chapter 13 by Jesus SUDDEN APPEARANCE into the throne room where He WAS NOT a moment before.

    If people's preconceived glasses are so thick they miss all the previous, God clinches the nails by showing us that the moment Jesus suddenly appears, HE SENDS DOWN THE HOLY SPIRIT!

    NOT THERE
    HOLY SPIRIT SEEN THERE
    NOT FOUND WORTHY
    SUDDEN APPEARANCE
    HOLY SPIRIT SENT DOWN

    This is not that difficult. It is a vision of the past, before Christ rose from the dead - up to the time He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. As one author used to write, "plain and simple" yet you try to OUT-reason God Himself.

    Your "busted" is the real proof of what I say.
     
  3. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Stephen saw what he saw,at the time Stephen was leaving this world.

    At the time of John's visitation to heaven, in the text of Revelation 4:8-11, Jesus was sitting on the throne, and being worshiped as Lord God Almighty by the four beasts and the 24 elders.

    I think you mean verse 13. But you are not getting that Jesus, who was there on the throne of God in Revelation 4:8-11, came forth from the throne of God, appearing in the midst of John and the 24 elders, as the Lamb of God.
     
  4. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Active Member Supporter

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    “OF COURSE there is an indication of history! John saw a throne room where Jesus was absent, he watched a search for one worthy that ended in failure, and he was the Holy Spirit in the throne room when Jesus said He would send Him down. This is THREE indications.


    Then when Jesus suddenly appeared that is the 4th indication or perhaps the proof of the three.”



    The lamb, which represents Christ, already bore the death wounds before opening the first seal. I personally think you are reading more into the text than what it actually indicates. John is writing about things to come. That is what Revelation is primarily about.

    Those insisting that the first seal represents the church are going to be hard-pressed to explain how that possible be for the following reasons:



    1. The church is never represented by a conquering king in scripture. A bride is always the representation of the church in scripture.


    2. The seals are connected to one another. The church has nothing to do with the other seals that are to follow which are cataclysmic.
     
  5. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    Way to much to just reply to.. someone said " This was TOO MUCH for Satan and he had to come and see first hand. THAT, my friend is why Jesus said He saw Satan fall. He was not talking about in the beginning of time." Christ " I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

    Isa 14:12 " How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!"

    John.. hears a voice like a trumpet. Then caught up in the spirit. That for me is not a vision. And what John saw.. is what he wrote. Ever see the picture of a duck? Thats what I saw.. then took a few seconds.. then I saw the bunny. Some see the bunny and thats it. Or like me they see the duck.. then some again as I did can see both. Same exact thing here.

    To many times we treat it as.. HOW in the WORLD can you not see? And we KNOW its THEM not us huh :) try to remember.. what is so easy for you to see.. they are seeing something different. And BOTH can be right! You have to look it like this.. that you can be wrong..
     
  6. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Yes, verse 13. I think you are not getting that this entire passage is to set the timing for the first seal.
     
  7. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Have you not noticed in Revelation, 42 months two places, 1260 days two places, a time, times, half time ? These are all components of 7 years.

    The seals are about events pertaining to the 7 years.

    Ezekiel 38-39 pertains to the beginning event of the 7 years, then the 7 years, then Armageddon at Jesus's return.

    The book that Jesus removed the seals on is about the 7 years leading up to Jesus's return.
     
  8. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Yes, I have noticed: 1260 twice, 42 months twice and 3.5 once.
    The seals are about events pertaining to the 7 years. No they are NOT! They are seals sealing a BOOK. It is MYTH that the seals have ANYTHING to do with the 70th week.
    Many people think the Ezekiel 38-39 war is the battle of Armageddon.
     
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    And why don't you connect the 1260 days twice, the 42 months twice, and the time, times, half times in Revelation with the 70th week of Daniel 9 ?
     
  10. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    How many times must I do this?

    Rev. 11:1-2 is the Man of sin arriving in Jerusalem, perhaps only days before he will enter the temple. He will come with his Gentile (Muslim?) armies. THEY will trample the city for the last 42 months. Their trampling will go to the 7th vial that ends the week. Or very close to that time.

    Next, the two witnesses show up. They show up because the man of sin shows up. God already knows what he is about to do. The two witnesses show up just 3.5 days before the midpoint and testify for 1260 days. That will take them to just 3.5 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. They will be killed and lay dead those 3.5 days. They will then be resurrected with ALL the Old Testament saints at the 7th trumpet on the last 24 hour day of the 70th week.

    The man of sin will enter the temple and "abominate." (I made up this word) The 7th trumpet will sound in heaven to mark this moment in heaven.

    Those living in Judea will then begin to flee. They will be fleeing (at least be away from home) for 1260 days - again the last half of the week.

    Also in chapter 12, those that flee will be supernaturally protected for 3.5 years, the last half of the week.

    Finally, some unknown time after the midpoint, the Beast is seen rising. He will be given 42 months of authority. Since his 42 months starts last, he will be captured last some unknown time after the week has ended.

    There you have it: all 5 mentions of the 3.5 year period of time, all for the last half of the week. Since daniel gave us this time too, we have 7 texts of the last 3.5 years.

    Note: Dan. 9 tells us the week will be divided by some event that will stop the daily sacrifices. That will be when the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God.

    The 2 verses in Daniel of the 3.5 years and the 5 mentions in Revelation PROVE that the week will be divided into two 1260 day periods and marked by the 7th trumpet and the midpoint.

    Of course you will disagree with all of this: you always do.
     
  11. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I should have packaged my question as...

    "And why don't you think the 1260 days twice, the 42 months twice, the time, times, haft have nothing to do with the seals?"

    When the seals are removed, the book reveal events that that take place during the seven years in the rest of Revelation.
    _____________________________________________________________

    You have events revealed in the book, when the seals are removed, spreading across 2000 years. Yet, Revelation, the timeframes given are about the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9.

    Apparently, you believe that chapters 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 have nothing to do with the 7 year 70th week.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    What in Revelation begins the 7 year week ?

    Where is the first half of the 7 years in Revelation ?

    __________________________________________________

    Are you in the camp that puts 2000 years between the first half of the 7 years - and the second half of the 7 years ?

    Who is this "he" in Daniel 9:27 ?

    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  13. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    I guess you are right. The SEALS cover the 2000 years. The rapture will come at the 6th seal (just before the earthquake) and the 7th seal officially opens the 70th week because then the book can be opened. I suspect the book contains the 70th week and when the 7th seal is opened then the book is opened.

    I have said countless times that God has marked the entire 70th week with the 7's: the 7th seal starts the week, the 7th vial ends the week, and the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint.

    Why don't I think the half-week numbers have anything to do with the seals? SImple: it is not the way John wrote the book. Chapter 1 up to chapter 4 is while John was alive. Chapter 20 is a thousand years and more into our future. Therefore, SOMEWHERE between these two chapters is where we are now. Since people are still be added to the martyrs of the church age, we are there at the 5th seal right now. THAT is the seal that covers 2000 years. We have not arrived to the judgment time (6th seal) yet. You see, the very text SHOWS US where we are now. The 70th week will go from chapters 8 on through chapters 16.
     
  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Okay, you are saying the 7th seal begins the 70th week.

    What I am saying to you is that the 7th seal does not begin the 70th week. The 7th seal when opened, in chapter 8, describes events which are in the middle of the week, when the trumpet judgments begin.

    The starting place for the beginning of the 70th week is with the rider on the white horse in Revelation 6, the first seal.
    ________________________________________________

    In Revelation, what begins the great tribulation ?
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  15. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Where we are right now is in the church age. The chapters on the messages to the seven church's is instructions of how we are to behave until Jesus comes.

    With the arrival of the rider on the white horse in Revelation 6, the focus is on the last week of Daniel 70 weeks - which in Daniel 9, the 70 weeks are determined upon Daniel's people Israel and Jerusalem in the text. Not the church.

    You tied the seventh seal as the beginning of the 70th week. And the half weeks are in the 70th week. So it appears to me, that you are claiming the 6 seals don't have anything to with the half weeks. Did I misunderstand you?
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Apparently, you have...

    7th seal begins the 70th week with....
    trumpet 1
    trumpet 2
    trumpet 3
    trumpet 4
    trumpet 5
    turmpet 6
    trumpet 7 - marks the mid point of the week
    man of sin arrives with army takes over Jerusalem for 42 months
    at the same time the two witnesses begin their 1260 days
    vial 1
    vial 2
    vial 3
    vial 4
    vial 5
    vial 6
    vial 7 - ends the 70th week
    the two witnesses killed and brought back to life, the world rejoices and exchange presents.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  17. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    You only imagine that because you imagine the week begins with the seals. And you imagine that because you imagine Jesus was there in the throne room but hidden, you imagine some reason why Jesus was not found worth, and you imagine when John suddenly saw Jesus that He was there all the time and did NOT just ascend.

    You see, when you miss a KEY, it throws everything else off.

    You might as well mark it down and start to believe it, for GOD MARKED the 70th week with the 7's: it starts with the 7th seal and ends with the 7th vial.

    You only imagine the trumpets are in the middle because you imagine the first seal was NOT opened in 32 AD as I have stated numerous, and because you just can't believe the first seal is for the CHURCH taking the gospel to the world, and because you can't believe seals 2 through 4 are the devil's attempts to stop the gospel, and you can't believe the 5th seal is for church age martyrs.

    This all starts in chapter 4 where you imagine you have a better theory than what I have stated all along.

    Show me just ONE WORD in the description of the first seal that gives you even the slightest HINT it is about anything evil.

    Again I must say it: you imagine God would use white 16 times in Revelation to represent righteousness and then use white ONCE to represent evil. You absolutely amaze me.
     
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I don't have to imagine anything. It is right in the text of Revelation 4:8-11 that the four beasts and the elders were worshipping Jesus on the throne.
     
  19. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    They were worshiping GOD. Jesus was still under the earth. You do a LOT of imagining.
     
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    They were worshipping Jesus.

    Revelation 4;11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


    Talking about Jesus in the these verse...

    Colossians 1:16 16For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

    John 1:3 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    __________________________________________________

    Revelaton 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

    It is clearing speaking about Jesus.

    9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

    Jesus is sitting on the throne.

    10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

    They elders have their crowns, which they cast before the throne on which Jesus sat because....

    Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    _____________________________________________________

    The problem is, lamad, is you have it mixed up of where Jesus came from when he appeared in the midst of the elders and John, as the Lamb of God. He didn't come from earth. He came from the throne which he was sitting on.

    Jesus was there in heaven, on the throne, when he called John up in Revelation 4. He was there in heaven the entire time in Revelation 4 and 5 - and is there on the throne today as we speak.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
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