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Featured What was God's intent in Rev. chapters 4 & 5?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by iamlamad, Jun 18, 2019.

  1. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    There is MUCH disagreement on what God was intending us to learn from these two chapters that are the context of the first seals. Do they show timing? Few believe they do. Did John see the real throne room of 95 AD - or a vision of the throne room. Can we tell? If a vision, what is the TIME inside the vision? Can we tell?

    If people miss the intent of the Author here, it is almost guaranteed they will miss it on the seals.

    I wonder; if any of the writers or readers here were asked to show how they would have written these two chapters when given God's parameters, how they would have written it.

    You see, God wanted to introduce John to the book sealed with 7 seals. After all - the book is a major part of this entire book of Revelation and is what will eventually get Satan kicked down as the god or prince of this world and give this world back to Jesus Christ, the rightful owner.

    It was tricky: God chose to start the story while the book was still in the right hand of the Father, before Jesus died and rose from the dead; we don't know but perhaps before Jesus descended to take on flesh. Perhaps it has been in the Father's hand since Adam's fall. HOW could God cause John to write things 60 some years into his past and have people recognize it as history in a book of prophecy? How well did God accomplish this?

    If YOU were to write something in a book of the future, but you had to write of an event 60 years in the past, how would you do it? I would guess you would have to draw attention to some event that all knew was history, not future.
     
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  2. RichardY

    RichardY Holotheist. Whig. Monarchical Modalism.

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    @iamlamad Oddly I was thinking of something perhaps similar. In order for forgiveness or indeed prophecy to be possible, there must be a recursive nature to time, something less fragmentary might be helpful at any rate. Perhaps a bit like that Star Trek episode Time's Arrow.
     
  3. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    The vision of chapter 4 and 5 has both God the Father and Jesus there. The worth of the one who was worthy to take the scroll from the hand of him who was on the throne is climactic. The declaration that he was worthy is the main point and that he had redeemed all those present by his blood. The prophecy to come is that those who were in heaven would rule and reign with Him. If you want to try to establish a time line John in Chapter one was told to record the things he had seen and that is chapter 1 then he was told to record the things that are and that is the letters to the 7 churches and finally he was told to record the things that will take place after this. Christ does not reign on earth until 42 month after the beast sets up the mark of the beast and the image. Note he persecutes the saints and they are said to live again and reign with Jesus for 1000 years. The 2nd coming is described plenty of places in the OT and if you look them all up you can see the LORD comes when Jerusalem is being overrun and the saints and Jews persecuted. The kingdom when Christ reigns and Satan is bound will not look like anything we have seen in human history. There will be peace and righteousness in the earth. After the 1000 years is over Satan is released to deceive one last time and he musters an army that surrounds Jerusalem and then fire comes down from heaven and that is it.
     
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  4. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    lamad, you are misunderstanding why they did not see Jesus. And the throne of God. God exists outside of creation. Which everything that is not God - is creation.

    The throne of God is where God manifest Himself to creation. Which the throne of God would be veiled in blinding light.

    John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

    They could not see Jesus because he was within the blinding light.

    The 24 elders were in the throne room when Jesus came forth from the blinding light of the throne and appeared in their midst. Jesus was there in heaven, because no-one precedes to heaven before Jesus.
    ________________________________________________

    Jesus is the Lord of Heaven, and created everything. Coming forth from the Father is way of saying that God came forth from Himself, in a form that all He was to create could perceive Him.

    The throne of God is where God enters creation, in perceptible form.
    __________________________________________________________

    lamad, the whole problem is that you are not visualizing the throne of God the right way.
     
  5. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi iamlamad,

    The predominate aim of Father God, (as through out His Word) is to reveal, unveil His Son as He is known in the heavenly realms. Rev 4 - 7, reveal the Son as the Heir of the world, and given His inheritance by the Father.

    The Son is seen enthroned in the highest realm of God`s great kingdom. He is the pre-eminent one, the supreme Lord over all. The Father has brought His enemies to His footstool and ready for His Son to begin operating in His authority and power to put down all rule under His feet.

    This time is soon approaching and what a glorious day that will be for the Body of Christ to take part in that celebration of celebrations.

    Marilyn.
     
  6. RichardY

    RichardY Holotheist. Whig. Monarchical Modalism.

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    2 Kings 2:11 And as they went walking and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and did separate them twain. So Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

    Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God, and he was no more seen: for God took him away.

    Revelation 22:18 For I protest unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.

    Visualizing or asserting is adding to, it is not revelation. So is camouflage.

    Jesus is the Lamb in Revelation.
    Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
     
  7. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    2Thessalonians2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
     
  8. RichardY

    RichardY Holotheist. Whig. Monarchical Modalism.

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    @Douggg
    Well that can not be Jesus Christ, as people have seen him.
     
  9. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  10. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  11. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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  13. RichardY

    RichardY Holotheist. Whig. Monarchical Modalism.

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    I prefer to integrate with Revelation, as one whole book and not compartmentalise it. Perhaps it is only that section of revelation. But as it is written, it says in this book.

    I think it may also apply to the rest of the Bible, to try to be as consistent as possible. The recent changes to the Lord's prayer by the Pope for instance are evil, and invert the prayer.
     
  14. RichardY

    RichardY Holotheist. Whig. Monarchical Modalism.

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    @Douggg He has a face, so he is seen.

    Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
     
  15. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    So what is your complaint? Jesus when he returns will be in his glorified appearance.

    Revelation 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

    15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

    16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
     
  16. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  17. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  18. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    This is a lot of human reasoning. Did John see the throne in this vision?
    YES! And He saw someone ON the throne. This is scripture, not human reasoning. Was Stephen so blinding by the light of the Father that the Son was invisible?

    Acts 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

    Now, perhaps you can at least TRY to answer my post? You must at least speak of the BOOK!
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  19. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    This is of course nothing but MYTH. John does not even get to the days of GT until after the warning given in chapter 14. And John FINALLY saw the beheaded BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15.
     
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