What happens when we "go to" hell. I mean what exactally is it do we know whats happening like enternal life but instead of with god ,with out him where would we be.
What is hell?
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Flynmonkie
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SweetLikeHoneyDew, as Chistians we don't "Go to Hell"!
I understand what you are saying though. What is it. There are varying perspectives, I believe it is a total seperation from God. That is where I leave it. It is really not something as Christians we should be worried about. IMVHCO
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The Bible speaks a lot about Hell. It's been said that it talks more about Hell than it does about Heaven. I don't know how true that is but I've read a great deal about Hell in the Bible.
Hell is mentioned around "weeping and gnashing of teeth". It's mentioned as a "lake of fire" where unbelievers are cast into it for eternity. Think about that... eternity. That's not just saying "wow, that's a really long time". It's forever. No ending... no rest... no day, no night... just torment. Think of your worst possible day here on Earth, mutliply that by infinity and you won't even come close to what Hell must be like.
It scares the dickens out of me to realize that there are some, yes... even those that call themselves "Christians" that will be cast into this everlasting place of despair. Jesus himself said that there would be those that would say... "Lord, Lord" and He in turn would tell them that He never knew them.
If men and women were wise... they would take a close look at themselves, repent of their sins, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and avoid this chaotic, unending nightmare. The Lord can and will change you... but you have to call out to Him! I pray for those that have not done this, daily, because I am afraid for their souls.
In peace and grace,
-Genesis
Hell is mentioned around "weeping and gnashing of teeth". It's mentioned as a "lake of fire" where unbelievers are cast into it for eternity. Think about that... eternity. That's not just saying "wow, that's a really long time". It's forever. No ending... no rest... no day, no night... just torment. Think of your worst possible day here on Earth, mutliply that by infinity and you won't even come close to what Hell must be like.
It scares the dickens out of me to realize that there are some, yes... even those that call themselves "Christians" that will be cast into this everlasting place of despair. Jesus himself said that there would be those that would say... "Lord, Lord" and He in turn would tell them that He never knew them.
If men and women were wise... they would take a close look at themselves, repent of their sins, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and avoid this chaotic, unending nightmare. The Lord can and will change you... but you have to call out to Him! I pray for those that have not done this, daily, because I am afraid for their souls.
In peace and grace,
-Genesis
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HypoTypoSis
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"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
dust + breath of life = a living soul
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hmmm... the Bible seems to speak very clearly on eternity for those who refuse to believe.
Rev 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Mark 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
Hebrews 6:2
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgement.
Daniel 11:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Matthew 18:8
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righhteous into life eternal.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
And those are just a mere few verses... Should we ignore what they're ALL saying? Hell is VERY real just as Heaven is VERY real. I trust what my Bible tells me.
As far as man being a soul... I'd agree with that, because we are made up of a body, a spirit and a soul that all make one, just like our Father.
-Genesis
Rev 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Mark 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
Hebrews 6:2
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgement.
Daniel 11:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Matthew 18:8
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righhteous into life eternal.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
And those are just a mere few verses... Should we ignore what they're ALL saying? Hell is VERY real just as Heaven is VERY real. I trust what my Bible tells me.
As far as man being a soul... I'd agree with that, because we are made up of a body, a spirit and a soul that all make one, just like our Father.
-Genesis
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HypoTypoSis
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Still yanking things out of context making theologies on the fly on small phrases.
This is the same "everlasting" as the others referring to this age and "destruction" is the same word used in I Corinthians 5:5,
"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
You get one freebie, no more free rides, in the future you'll have to do your own in depth (and this wasn't even deep) bible study.
In the future please do real study and not just quick computer bible searches on certain words and phrases and throwing them out saying, "ah hah!", that is not study in the least and certainly demonstrates no understanding of the subject matter whatever.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
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HypoTypoSis
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Nope.
Unregenerate man = [dust + God's breath of life = a living soul]. Period.
Regenerate man = [dust + God's breath of life = a living soul] + spirit + the Holy Spirit.
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My apologies for the typo on Daniel. The correct verse was 12:2 as opposed to 11:2.
Look, Hypo, I'm sure you've been studying. My faith resides in the Bible and the Lord and His Holy Spirit alone. What I have read and cross referenced shows that there is an eternal punishment of some sort... some would call that Hell. The Bible calls it Hell. I stand on that by faith.
I'm a student of the Bible, not of man's theologies. I read what I do and take it at face value. To say that everlasting isn't meant to mean everlasting, or eternal isn't meant to mean eternal also means that no one would have "everlasting life" or "eternal life". So, if you're going to tear down the Holy Scriptures... you might want to consider exactly what all you'd be tearing down.
I won't go down that road and you can debate with someone else. Oh... and I didn't use the computer to find my verses. I cross referenced and read the verses in context with the surrounding ones. For example, the lake of fire that Satan, the Antichrist and the false prophet are thrown in (found in Revelations) is refered to as well in Isaiah. The scriptures interpret themselves when you search for the answers.
Make no mistake, God is just to punish someone eternally, because that person chose to ignore God, not vice versa.
Grace and peace to you,
-Genesis
1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Look, Hypo, I'm sure you've been studying. My faith resides in the Bible and the Lord and His Holy Spirit alone. What I have read and cross referenced shows that there is an eternal punishment of some sort... some would call that Hell. The Bible calls it Hell. I stand on that by faith.
I'm a student of the Bible, not of man's theologies. I read what I do and take it at face value. To say that everlasting isn't meant to mean everlasting, or eternal isn't meant to mean eternal also means that no one would have "everlasting life" or "eternal life". So, if you're going to tear down the Holy Scriptures... you might want to consider exactly what all you'd be tearing down.
I won't go down that road and you can debate with someone else. Oh... and I didn't use the computer to find my verses. I cross referenced and read the verses in context with the surrounding ones. For example, the lake of fire that Satan, the Antichrist and the false prophet are thrown in (found in Revelations) is refered to as well in Isaiah. The scriptures interpret themselves when you search for the answers.
Make no mistake, God is just to punish someone eternally, because that person chose to ignore God, not vice versa.
Grace and peace to you,
-Genesis
1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Dimitree
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Hmm i want to answer the original post in my opinion
I would like to draw a picture for you about Hell.
Imagine that all is done
God will destroy earth and create a new city for His Children.
So imagine that all this around you is gone !
And you are left outside the new world that God made for us
And where you are there is nothing in the best case.
So it will be dark and lonely and COLD.
In the worst case the evil ones will be thrown in eternal flames
I don't know if you have ever heard someone screaming from REAL pain with his whole breath and soul !
It's mindblowing
Imagine that you hear thousends and thousends of never ending screams like that ..... Forever !
"And you will scream but i will nto hear you"
I would like to draw a picture for you about Hell.
Imagine that all is done
God will destroy earth and create a new city for His Children.
So imagine that all this around you is gone !
And you are left outside the new world that God made for us
And where you are there is nothing in the best case.
So it will be dark and lonely and COLD.
In the worst case the evil ones will be thrown in eternal flames
I don't know if you have ever heard someone screaming from REAL pain with his whole breath and soul !
It's mindblowing
Imagine that you hear thousends and thousends of never ending screams like that ..... Forever !
"And you will scream but i will nto hear you"
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Its not a fun subject to discuss. Its separation from God and its very much like what the Bible says. People who are unbelievers and come back to life - that were considered clinically dead for a few minutes - say its dark and an extremely gloomy place and very frightening.
Plus, there are levels of hell - depends on how one lived their unbelieving life (unchristian life).
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Ramdar_Goftar
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I dont particularly like to think about it but hell is total separation from God *shivers*
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HypoTypoSis
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Hello, CG,
Please accept my apologies, as well, I tend to get a little short when I've been up for extended periods of time.
The mis-referenced quote sounded familiar but...oh, well, nuff said.
We make a nasty error when we equate the simplistic message of salvation with everything else in the bible, i.e. as though when we assume that if we do not believe everything in there then that is tantamount to a rejection of Jesus. Such is absolutely not the case. When we separate the two out we find that when we can see that thin thread of light (Jesus and the gospel message itself) at the end of the proverbial tunnel then everything else is much easier to approach with an open mind and examine.
To read, for example, an OT passage and, on face value, it sounds like it might be prophetic in nature and if we assume such is so and build other studies on this only to find out later that passage was prophetic at that point in time and pointed to, say a period only 50 years distant from when it was foretold then it is actually, from our perspective, history and, in which case, means that everything we've built upon that has been in error.
Does that error affect our salvation? Of course, not. That particular aspect of the scriptures is inviolable. Everything else, however, is up for grabs. The same is so for, in this instance, the concept of eternal torment. It is an unrelated to our salvation and begs deeper understanding, and just passiveley assuming the answer is as we've always been trained to read into passages which when we give deeper examination of simply does not exist.
There are many issues throughout the scriptures that fall into the same sort of boat that are separate to the issue of salvation that we discuss, ponder and meditate on frequently. Modern day understandings based on traditions that do not have their roots solidly founded in the times and scriptures but, instead, are strongly evidenced halfway across the millennia between the time of Jesus and us today are even more questionable particularly when simple questions are asked that are contrary to the scriptures as well as the nature and character of God and, despite their simplicity, are so obviously impossible to answer without going against thousand year tradition that we refuse to even acknowledge that what we have grown 'assuming' was so and looking to (wrongly) verify by scripture what we 'think' is supposed to be so. But this is the wrong approach, we should start with scripture and if later tradition is found in violation we should dump it in favor the correct scripture.
HypoTypoSis
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HypoTypoSis
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God is going to destroy everything (except those that are in Christ Jesus), the entire creation and everything in it, including the heavens and the earth, the entire universe (1 Peter 3:10).
He will then create a new heaven and a new earth where everything will be perfect.
Where does it say He will save everyone (saved and) unsaved and save and preserve all the unsaved, all the evil, all the sinful after it is all destroyed throughout the entire next perfect creation?
God, through His word and the guiding, leading and teaching of His Holy Spirit indwelling within us spends a lifetime in each of us teaching us to be Christlike, Godly and forgiving.
Where does it say God's character is not the same as we are taught to act?
Where does it say His anger, wrath and vengeance is without end against even those that never heard even the name of Jesus?
He will then create a new heaven and a new earth where everything will be perfect.
Where does it say He will save everyone (saved and) unsaved and save and preserve all the unsaved, all the evil, all the sinful after it is all destroyed throughout the entire next perfect creation?
God, through His word and the guiding, leading and teaching of His Holy Spirit indwelling within us spends a lifetime in each of us teaching us to be Christlike, Godly and forgiving.
Where does it say God's character is not the same as we are taught to act?
Where does it say His anger, wrath and vengeance is without end against even those that never heard even the name of Jesus?
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Easystreet
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Whatever it is, is bad. The torment and punishment passages tell us it is a very undesirable place to be.
God has related this place to us in terms of fire and smoke and lake of fire in the end.
One verse tells us it is outer darkness.
The emphasis of "depart from me" suggest total separation.
Here is my twist and I don't hold myself to it absolutely.
(1) There are levels of punishment based upon the severity of sin in ones life "it will be more tolerable" statements suggest this.
(2) Not sure the statements "lake of fire" is literal. I tend to think it is conveyed to us this way because it may be the most feared element of pain and punishment as we understand it in this life physically. I tend to think that anthropomorphic metaphoric term.
(3) Outer darkness, total separation is the concept that really smacks of unbelievable torment. Can you imagine the depth, and breath of loneness. Total separation from any and all other beings. You are there is total outer separated from all contact of any spirit, just you for ever. Remember there are suggested levels of this outer darkness.
(4) How lonely can you picture yourself in this life? The thought of on going physical burn pain is terrible. How terrible would unending outer darkness be. We are constantly surrounded with other spirits, things, company, etc. There nothing, you can't see anything, no one, just black outer darkness. That is real HELL That is real Lake of Fire. The torment of this kind is so devastating of which you can't escape - crying out endlessly.
What loneliness. What punishment. Go find the most dark secluded place on earth and think about it.
God has related this place to us in terms of fire and smoke and lake of fire in the end.
One verse tells us it is outer darkness.
The emphasis of "depart from me" suggest total separation.
Here is my twist and I don't hold myself to it absolutely.
(1) There are levels of punishment based upon the severity of sin in ones life "it will be more tolerable" statements suggest this.
(2) Not sure the statements "lake of fire" is literal. I tend to think it is conveyed to us this way because it may be the most feared element of pain and punishment as we understand it in this life physically. I tend to think that anthropomorphic metaphoric term.
(3) Outer darkness, total separation is the concept that really smacks of unbelievable torment. Can you imagine the depth, and breath of loneness. Total separation from any and all other beings. You are there is total outer separated from all contact of any spirit, just you for ever. Remember there are suggested levels of this outer darkness.
(4) How lonely can you picture yourself in this life? The thought of on going physical burn pain is terrible. How terrible would unending outer darkness be. We are constantly surrounded with other spirits, things, company, etc. There nothing, you can't see anything, no one, just black outer darkness. That is real HELL That is real Lake of Fire. The torment of this kind is so devastating of which you can't escape - crying out endlessly.
What loneliness. What punishment. Go find the most dark secluded place on earth and think about it.
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MatthewDiscipleofGod
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Hell is:
1. As eternal for the unsaved as Heaven is for the saved.
Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
In the Greek everlasting and eternal are the exact same greek word. So either you have to believe both Heaven and Hell are eternal or you have to believe both are really not eternal. Jesus made this clear and to say anything else to to call Jesus a liar.
2. Hell is a place of torement.
Matthew 13:41-43 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
I hardly hear hell talked about in churches anymore. Jesus didn't shy away from warning people of hell, we shouldn't either. Unless we don't want to be like Jesus.
1. As eternal for the unsaved as Heaven is for the saved.
Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
In the Greek everlasting and eternal are the exact same greek word. So either you have to believe both Heaven and Hell are eternal or you have to believe both are really not eternal. Jesus made this clear and to say anything else to to call Jesus a liar.
2. Hell is a place of torement.
Matthew 13:41-43 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
I hardly hear hell talked about in churches anymore. Jesus didn't shy away from warning people of hell, we shouldn't either. Unless we don't want to be like Jesus.
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HypoTypoSis
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Most of the time the pro-Catholic translators changed the original word, grave, to the pagan (English rendered) word, hell.
There are a few instances where the pro-Catholic translators changed the original word, GeHenna (the trash dump on the edge of town), to the pagan (English rendered) word, hell.
There is one other instance, used only once, where the pro-Catholic translators changed the original word, Tarteroo (Tartarus) to the pagan (English rendered) word, hell.
The English word, hell, was not coined until the Middle Ages and came from the pagan Norse word, kel.
By changing certain words in certain passages they were able to instill the absorbed belief that the Catholic church from the time of the earlier state church (when it was law for church and state to be one, unlike the U.S. today) in Constantine's time, of Universalism that most if not all of mankind, saved and unsaved, alive and already dead, by making prayers to save them out of Purgatory, a pagan place of purification for the unsaved dead, that would allow them at a later time to then make them worthy of entering heaven.
This was an excellent means for the Catholic Church to maintain a steady stream of income for its coffers for over a thousand years.
Prayers for the dead, a custom many millennia old and still, practiced by virtually all pagan religions, faiths and beliefs. It's nothing new and was never true.
We know Universalism and Catholicism's other absorbed beliefs to be false; unfortunately, many of their beliefs, customs, traditions and even accoutrements have also been absorbed into several of the Protestant denominations from Catholicism and in closer to more modern times directly from the originals Universalists themselves just as evolutionist and humanist beliefs have infiltrated Christendom from those beliefs.
The concept of eternal torment is not original to the Judeo-Christian faiths as it was gradually absorbed by them from the neighboring pagan beliefs.
Only by being wrongly absorbed (as with evolution in "Christian Evolutionists" and humanism as in "Christian Humanism" today) by living near to and with pagans that believed such in the Hebrews earlier times (generally when they were in periods of captivity or a state of occupation) or when it was the law of the land as with the time of Constantine when those beliefs were absorbed by Christendom and, of course, as it has been infiltrated in the last one hundred and fifty years.
2 Corinthians 6:14-18, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."
From the above it is very plain that God says those that believe the false beliefs of pagans believeth with an infidel, and the roots of the concept of 'hell' are pagan.
There are a few instances where the pro-Catholic translators changed the original word, GeHenna (the trash dump on the edge of town), to the pagan (English rendered) word, hell.
There is one other instance, used only once, where the pro-Catholic translators changed the original word, Tarteroo (Tartarus) to the pagan (English rendered) word, hell.
The English word, hell, was not coined until the Middle Ages and came from the pagan Norse word, kel.
By changing certain words in certain passages they were able to instill the absorbed belief that the Catholic church from the time of the earlier state church (when it was law for church and state to be one, unlike the U.S. today) in Constantine's time, of Universalism that most if not all of mankind, saved and unsaved, alive and already dead, by making prayers to save them out of Purgatory, a pagan place of purification for the unsaved dead, that would allow them at a later time to then make them worthy of entering heaven.
This was an excellent means for the Catholic Church to maintain a steady stream of income for its coffers for over a thousand years.
Prayers for the dead, a custom many millennia old and still, practiced by virtually all pagan religions, faiths and beliefs. It's nothing new and was never true.
We know Universalism and Catholicism's other absorbed beliefs to be false; unfortunately, many of their beliefs, customs, traditions and even accoutrements have also been absorbed into several of the Protestant denominations from Catholicism and in closer to more modern times directly from the originals Universalists themselves just as evolutionist and humanist beliefs have infiltrated Christendom from those beliefs.
The concept of eternal torment is not original to the Judeo-Christian faiths as it was gradually absorbed by them from the neighboring pagan beliefs.
Only by being wrongly absorbed (as with evolution in "Christian Evolutionists" and humanism as in "Christian Humanism" today) by living near to and with pagans that believed such in the Hebrews earlier times (generally when they were in periods of captivity or a state of occupation) or when it was the law of the land as with the time of Constantine when those beliefs were absorbed by Christendom and, of course, as it has been infiltrated in the last one hundred and fifty years.
2 Corinthians 6:14-18, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."
From the above it is very plain that God says those that believe the false beliefs of pagans believeth with an infidel, and the roots of the concept of 'hell' are pagan.
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DeaconDean
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From the Westminster Confession of Faith, 1646:
CHAPTER XXXII.
Of the State of Man After Death,
and of the Resurrection of the Dead.
I. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption; but their souls (which neither die nor sleep), having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them. The souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. Besides these two places for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.
II. At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed: and all the dead shall be raised up with the self-same bodies, and none other, although with different qualities, which shall be united again to their souls forever.
III. The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonor; the bodies of the just, by his Spirit, unto honor, and be made conformable to his own glorious body.
http://www.reformed.org/documents/i....org/documents/westminster_conf_of_faith.html
Arthur W. Pink says:
"There is deep need for us to approach this solemn subject impartially and dispassionately. Let writer and reader cry earnestly to God that all prejudices and preconceptions may be removed from our minds. It ill becomes us to sit at the feet of Infinite Wisdom determined to hold fast to our foregone conclusions. Nothing can be more insulting to God than to presume to examine His Word, professing a desire to learn His mind, when we have already settled to our own satisfaction what it will say. Some one has said that we ought to bring our minds to the Scriptures as blank paper is brought to the printing press, that it may receive only the impress of the type. May such grace be vouchsafed to us all that we may ever present our minds to the Holy Spirit's teaching that only the impress may be left which God has designed. May our only desire be to hear "What saith the Lord?"
http://reformed.org/eschaton/index.html?mainframe=/eschaton/pink_eternal_punishment.html
Lets clear up some misconcerptions about "hell." Some poeple don't believe in it. Some people want to minimize the eternality of it. And some want to reduce it to only as a separation from God. All these views are wrong.
In the first place, "hell" is not eternal. On the contrary, it is temporal. The word "hell" is a rendering of the Hebrew word "sheol." And it does translate as "grave," "hades," and "pit." The word hell, taken as it is implied in the New Testament, is but a temoprary holding place for the unsaved, unbeliever. Our ultimate teacher on this subject is the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus indeed did preach about hell. But in the context of what our Savior taught, the hell we have been taught about is but a temporary place. The unsaved will only have to endure this place until the judgment day. The eternal punishment that is reserved for "all" unbelievers at the great judgment day, is another place altogether.
To come to this conclusion we must examine what exactly the Savior taught on this subject. The "hell" He taught, does not sound like the hell most have come to believe. Using Jesus' own teachings, we must therefore conclude five things about this place. As the Savior taught in Luke 16:19-31, "hades" or "hell" if you prefer, is a place where there will be:
"The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;" -Deut. 18:5
So this place is but a shadow or type of what is to follow. And it will not last for eternity for in the great judgment day:
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." -Rev. 20:13-14
One more final thought to those who hold to the theory of "soul-sleep."
The belief of the two-sided conception of hades, one side called "paradise" and the other called "hell," came into belief sometime during the Babylonian captivity. It seems to have come from an influence of both Persian and Hellanistic ideas concerning retribution after death where the righteous and the wicked had different fates with the first instance being in Enoch 22. Strangly enough, Josephus also records that at about this time the Pharisees came into being and they also hold this viewpoint.(Josephus, Ant., 18,14) This line of thought was still being developed at the time of Jesus. This is seen from Jesus Himself because He knows the souls of both the righteous and the wicked are in the "underworld." (Job 10:21, 26:5, Psa. 89:49) But it is also remarkable that Jesus also knew that the righteous and the wicked are separated into vastly different places as seen in His teaching in Luke 16:19-31. (H.L.Strack and P.Billerbeck, Kommentar zum NT aus Talmud und Midrasch, 1922, IV, 1017, 1019-22) The NT conception of hades is closely linked with that of Judaism. And is seen clearely in His teaching od Luke 16:19-31 when placed in comparison with Enoch 22, the depiction of hades corresponds to the average popular view of the Jewsih population. (Ibid, 1019) This means that certain ideas of hades are common to the whole of the NT. So that what we are left with is that the notion o "soul-sleep" is as foreign to the NT, as it is to Judaism. The image of sleep as seen in the Greek word "kai meta" as in Mark 5:39, 1 Thes. 5:10, John 11:11-12, is just a euphemism used for death. (Joachim Jeremias, Theological Dictionary of the NT, Edited by Gerhard Kittle, Translated by Geoffery W. Bromiley, D. Litt., D.D., Erdmans Publishing, Grand Rapids, MI., 1964, reprinted 2006, Vol. I, a-r, p. 148, 1a.) And one other thing, if the notion of temporary suffering in "hades" or "hell" were untrue, why didn't our Lord correct this line of thought if it was in error? And, the fact that Jesus did not correct this line of thought, only proves that upon death, the eternal soul of the believer/unbeliever, will go to their respective place.
And that is all we know for sure about this temporary place.
On the other hand, we know quite a lot about the other place. The Lord Jesus Christ preached about this place also. People will reduce it to an allegory because they believe it is a place where the unsaved are to be separated from God. That much is true. But the reality of "the lake of fire, which burneth with brinstone" is much, much worse than people want to believe.
If believing in the crucified, risen Savior carries with it the benefits of eternal life, then rejection of the Savior must carry with it a certain amount of penalities. Otherwise, there is no motivation for the unsaved to come to the Savior in the first place.
Jesus called John the Revelator up to heaven:
"Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." -Rev. 4:1
The "lake of fire" as it is known in Revelation is also called a "bottomless pit." (Rev. 9:2) It is also just that, an "everlasting fire." (Matt. 25:41) This place was ordained and made long ago, the prophet Isaiah said:
"For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it." -Isa. 30:33
This by the way, agrees with what Jesus taught about it:
"...the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -Rev. 21:8
There is much, much more to be said on this subject, but this is sufficent to show that "hell" and "the lake of fire" are indeed, two different places. One temporary, one eternal.
God Bless
Till all are one.
CHAPTER XXXII.
Of the State of Man After Death,
and of the Resurrection of the Dead.
I. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption; but their souls (which neither die nor sleep), having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them. The souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. Besides these two places for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.
II. At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed: and all the dead shall be raised up with the self-same bodies, and none other, although with different qualities, which shall be united again to their souls forever.
III. The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonor; the bodies of the just, by his Spirit, unto honor, and be made conformable to his own glorious body.
http://www.reformed.org/documents/i....org/documents/westminster_conf_of_faith.html
Arthur W. Pink says:
"There is deep need for us to approach this solemn subject impartially and dispassionately. Let writer and reader cry earnestly to God that all prejudices and preconceptions may be removed from our minds. It ill becomes us to sit at the feet of Infinite Wisdom determined to hold fast to our foregone conclusions. Nothing can be more insulting to God than to presume to examine His Word, professing a desire to learn His mind, when we have already settled to our own satisfaction what it will say. Some one has said that we ought to bring our minds to the Scriptures as blank paper is brought to the printing press, that it may receive only the impress of the type. May such grace be vouchsafed to us all that we may ever present our minds to the Holy Spirit's teaching that only the impress may be left which God has designed. May our only desire be to hear "What saith the Lord?"
http://reformed.org/eschaton/index.html?mainframe=/eschaton/pink_eternal_punishment.html
Lets clear up some misconcerptions about "hell." Some poeple don't believe in it. Some people want to minimize the eternality of it. And some want to reduce it to only as a separation from God. All these views are wrong.
In the first place, "hell" is not eternal. On the contrary, it is temporal. The word "hell" is a rendering of the Hebrew word "sheol." And it does translate as "grave," "hades," and "pit." The word hell, taken as it is implied in the New Testament, is but a temoprary holding place for the unsaved, unbeliever. Our ultimate teacher on this subject is the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus indeed did preach about hell. But in the context of what our Savior taught, the hell we have been taught about is but a temporary place. The unsaved will only have to endure this place until the judgment day. The eternal punishment that is reserved for "all" unbelievers at the great judgment day, is another place altogether.
To come to this conclusion we must examine what exactly the Savior taught on this subject. The "hell" He taught, does not sound like the hell most have come to believe. Using Jesus' own teachings, we must therefore conclude five things about this place. As the Savior taught in Luke 16:19-31, "hades" or "hell" if you prefer, is a place where there will be:
- A fire. "...for I am tormented in this flame." -Lk. 16:24
- There will be "torments" from it. -Lk. 16:24
- There will be unquinchable thirst: "...Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue;" -Lk. 16:24
- There is no escape from it: "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." -Lk. 16:26
- It is only temorary: "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." -Rev. 20:14
"The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;" -Deut. 18:5
So this place is but a shadow or type of what is to follow. And it will not last for eternity for in the great judgment day:
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." -Rev. 20:13-14
One more final thought to those who hold to the theory of "soul-sleep."
The belief of the two-sided conception of hades, one side called "paradise" and the other called "hell," came into belief sometime during the Babylonian captivity. It seems to have come from an influence of both Persian and Hellanistic ideas concerning retribution after death where the righteous and the wicked had different fates with the first instance being in Enoch 22. Strangly enough, Josephus also records that at about this time the Pharisees came into being and they also hold this viewpoint.(Josephus, Ant., 18,14) This line of thought was still being developed at the time of Jesus. This is seen from Jesus Himself because He knows the souls of both the righteous and the wicked are in the "underworld." (Job 10:21, 26:5, Psa. 89:49) But it is also remarkable that Jesus also knew that the righteous and the wicked are separated into vastly different places as seen in His teaching in Luke 16:19-31. (H.L.Strack and P.Billerbeck, Kommentar zum NT aus Talmud und Midrasch, 1922, IV, 1017, 1019-22) The NT conception of hades is closely linked with that of Judaism. And is seen clearely in His teaching od Luke 16:19-31 when placed in comparison with Enoch 22, the depiction of hades corresponds to the average popular view of the Jewsih population. (Ibid, 1019) This means that certain ideas of hades are common to the whole of the NT. So that what we are left with is that the notion o "soul-sleep" is as foreign to the NT, as it is to Judaism. The image of sleep as seen in the Greek word "kai meta" as in Mark 5:39, 1 Thes. 5:10, John 11:11-12, is just a euphemism used for death. (Joachim Jeremias, Theological Dictionary of the NT, Edited by Gerhard Kittle, Translated by Geoffery W. Bromiley, D. Litt., D.D., Erdmans Publishing, Grand Rapids, MI., 1964, reprinted 2006, Vol. I, a-r, p. 148, 1a.) And one other thing, if the notion of temporary suffering in "hades" or "hell" were untrue, why didn't our Lord correct this line of thought if it was in error? And, the fact that Jesus did not correct this line of thought, only proves that upon death, the eternal soul of the believer/unbeliever, will go to their respective place.
And that is all we know for sure about this temporary place.
On the other hand, we know quite a lot about the other place. The Lord Jesus Christ preached about this place also. People will reduce it to an allegory because they believe it is a place where the unsaved are to be separated from God. That much is true. But the reality of "the lake of fire, which burneth with brinstone" is much, much worse than people want to believe.
If believing in the crucified, risen Savior carries with it the benefits of eternal life, then rejection of the Savior must carry with it a certain amount of penalities. Otherwise, there is no motivation for the unsaved to come to the Savior in the first place.
Jesus called John the Revelator up to heaven:
"Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." -Rev. 4:1
The "lake of fire" as it is known in Revelation is also called a "bottomless pit." (Rev. 9:2) It is also just that, an "everlasting fire." (Matt. 25:41) This place was ordained and made long ago, the prophet Isaiah said:
"For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it." -Isa. 30:33
This by the way, agrees with what Jesus taught about it:
"...the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -Rev. 21:8
There is much, much more to be said on this subject, but this is sufficent to show that "hell" and "the lake of fire" are indeed, two different places. One temporary, one eternal.
God Bless
Till all are one.
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HypoTypoSis
Veteran
Dean,
With all due respect, what is retained in your quote above is all that is correct regarding hell and eternal torment (except for the term, "hades", which is pagan and we are to have nothing to do with pagan beliefs, customs or traditions--thus saith the Lord).
Thus you are correct in that 'hell' means the grave for the grave is the "hidden place", the place hidden from view, the unknown place, the place of unending terror for those that die not in the Lord.
As far as Lazarus and the rich man are concerned what Jesus was teaching in this parable had aboslutely nothing to do with either hell or eternal torment. Nothing at all.
It is an analogy to illustrate certain truths contained within the story.
This parable is a satire, ridiculing the stance of the Scribes and Pharisees.
The rich man stands for the Jewish nation (Judah).
Lazarus represents certain of the gentiles.
The dogs that licked the sores represent the rest of the gentiles.
Jesus told the Jews if they would not believe Moses and the prophets they wouldn't believe one that returned from the dead.
Acts 28:28 the rich man refused One that returned from the dead and the gospel went out to Lazarus.
If this parable is describing actual conditions of the future then those in heaven will be able to hold conversations with those in Hell.
People will be able to look across the impassable gulf and see their loved ones in indescribable torment.
Does a man because he is rich, well clothed and fed, represent all sinners in this world?
Is the poor man, covered in sores, representative of all the righteous?
The scriptures say nothing about the rich man being a sinner.
The scriptures say nothing about the poor man being a saint.
If this story is literal then how could we believe that one drop of water on the tip of one finger could alleviate those who are incarcerated in such a fiery torment?
How could a drop of water exist in such a place as this imaginary flaming Hell.
If this story be literal then how does one who has died and is buried possess a tongue to speak?
Do the disembodied 'souls' in the spirit realm have a tongue?
The rich man stands for the Jewish nation who enjoyed God's favour and blessings.
Lazarus represents a people who lay at Judah's gate, those who received not the benefits - Gentiles.
The parable has within it a prophecy that the two characters mentioned are to change places.
The rich man to suffer rejection, pain, poverty and punishment and Lazarus to enjoy comfort, peace and honour in a close relationship; Abraham's bosom.
A covenant relationship with all the promises being fulfilled.
HypoTypoSis
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DeaconDean
γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
- Jul 19, 2005
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I tell you what, you believe that there isn't any place like hades or hell which is described by Jesus in Luke 16:19-31.
I on the other hand, will believe. You are constantly fighting me at every turn on this forum.
Because I choose to believe, I come under fire. I take God's word just as it is. I will say this, Jesus is our example. We are to pattern our life after His. If the grave couldn't hold Him down, how is it going to hold me down? I believe that upon my death, I'll be with my Lord and Savior.
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." -2 Cor. 5:8
If you choose not to believe in hades or hell as a temporary punishment until the day of judgment, so be it. I'll not try to persuade you. But I choose to believe these things. And if I have taught anything that is not in the scriptures, then show it to me.
God Bless you in your convictions
Till all are one.
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