Virginia HB961 - Actual gun confiscation unless you register it with the state

[iluvatar5150]

I know the argument you're talking about...and it's either misinformed or disingenuous.

It's usually along the lines of...

My hunting rifle shoots the same round as that assault rifle, it's semi automatic, it's got magazines with the same number of rounds. Why are the banning one and not the other? They don't know what they're talking about....

The reality is that, in general, there's several things that assault rifles do better. Things like...

- shooting at a target while advancing on it
- staying aimed in while moving
- taking cover
- firing from behind cover
- rapidly acquiring multiple targets
- staying on target while firing rapidly
- maneuvering the weapon indoors or in tight spaces

....to name a few things.

Now, realistically, these are still skills one has to practice. Simply having an assault rifle won't suddenly make someone proficient at those things. I'm just speaking generally.

While I appreciate that the ergonomic features I mentioned can enhance the performance metrics you're talking about, I'm actually coming at it from another angle - what I'm talking about is the psychological effect of wielding something that looks like a tricked out 772SOCOMCODBFG9000 vs something that looks like grandpa's old hunting rifle. Does having your hands on a TACTICOOLDEATHMACHINE do something to your brain the same way that, say, driving a Ferrari might tempt you to drive fast?

I don't know the answer to that, but I think it'd be an interesting study.

Two points:
2. If you remove St. Louis, Baltimore, Chicago, and Detroit, all cities with extreme gun control laws, the entire United States falls from 3rd to 189th in murder rate; that said, it does not tell the tale of what murders would have occurred regardless of access to a firearm...sometimes, a person wants to kill someone so badly, they'll use anything:

Chicago Isn’t Close to Being the Gun Violence Capital of the United States

U.S. doesn't have gun violence epidemic, Dem cities do - WND

What Is The Murder Rate If We Exclude Cities Like Chicago? - The Meme Policeman

lol, you didn't even read your third link, did you? It lays out pretty clearly why that claim of yours that I bolded is not true.

 

[Speedwell]

While I appreciate that the ergonomic features I mentioned can enhance the performance metrics you're talking about, I'm actually coming at it from another angle - what I'm talking about is the psychological effect of wielding something that looks like a tricked out 772SOCOMCODBFG9000 vs something that looks like grandpa's old hunting rifle. Does having your hands on a TACTICOOLDEATHMACHINE do something to your brain the same way that, say, driving a Ferrari might tempt you to drive fast?

I don't know the answer to that, but I think it'd be an interesting study.

And think that many liberals fear exactly that, which is why they want to ban "assault rifles" right down to their fake RPG launcher mounting brackets.

 

[iluvatar5150]

And think that many liberals fear exactly that, which is why they want to ban "assault rifles" right down to their fake RPG launcher mounting brackets.

IME, most liberals don't really know what any of those features do.

 

[Yekcidmij]

I'm expecting VCDL and the GOA to file injunctions if any of these bills pass. I have yet to do my research on the VA court judges to see if any are activists or legitimate.

True. No doubt they will be challenged in court.

 

[dogs4thewin]

There's really little that could be done besides jury nullification and local officials refusing to enforce state law. But the State could always just use state police and agencies for enforcement anyway without any necessary need to rely on local city and county police.

If you're in Va, you're just beholden to NOVA. The beltway bandits will decide for you.

But even if you were stopped by state police you still have a trial, they are still going to have to prove beyond a reason doubt, and usually ( unless it is a high profile case) the trial will be in the same district that you were stopped even if it was the state police that stopped you.

 

[essentialsaltes]

In response to what he described as “credible intelligence” of threats of violence at an upcoming gun rights rally in Richmond, Virginia Gov. Ralph Northam has declared a state of emergency and will temporarily ban individuals from carrying firearms on Capitol grounds.

The governor said at a press conference Wednesday that authorities believe “armed militia groups plan to storm the Capitol” during the January 20 rally.

On the Facebook page for the rally, several attendees are already saying they won’t comply and leave their weapons at home — even though Richmond Mayor Levar Stoney has vowed a hard line on rule-breakers. “Violations of the law will not be tolerated,” Stoney said.

The January 20 event, dubbed “Lobby Day,” was organized by the Virginia Citizens Defense League, a pro-Second Amendment nonprofit, in response to new gun control legislation introduced by the Democratic state Legislature. Northam acknowledged that the organizers had been planning the rally for some time. “I believe them when they say this is a peaceful event — that’s what democracy is,” said Northam. “Unfortunately, they have unleashed something much larger, something they may not be able to control.”

Northam says that the state of emergency will be lifted on Tuesday.

 

[Darkhorse]

In response to what he described as “credible intelligence” of threats of violence at an upcoming gun rights rally in Richmond, Virginia Gov. Ralph Northam has declared a state of emergency and will temporarily ban individuals from carrying firearms on Capitol grounds.

The governor said at a press conference Wednesday that authorities believe “armed militia groups plan to storm the Capitol” during the January 20 rally.

On the Facebook page for the rally, several attendees are already saying they won’t comply and leave their weapons at home — even though Richmond Mayor Levar Stoney has vowed a hard line on rule-breakers. “Violations of the law will not be tolerated,” Stoney said.

The January 20 event, dubbed “Lobby Day,” was organized by the Virginia Citizens Defense League, a pro-Second Amendment nonprofit, in response to new gun control legislation introduced by the Democratic state Legislature. Northam acknowledged that the organizers had been planning the rally for some time. “I believe them when they say this is a peaceful event — that’s what democracy is,” said Northam. “Unfortunately, they have unleashed something much larger, something they may not be able to control.”

Northam says that the state of emergency will be lifted on Tuesday.

There's already a thread about this in "Current News and Events" (for Christians).

Northam is a despot and doesn't like people resisting his edicts.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Sounds like someone else I know.

 

[tall73]

Two points:

1. None of this data attempts to address why people are wanting to kill others (that's the problem we're trying to solve, right?)

Agreed, it does not look at motives. The homicides are made up of a number of different types of incidents, with various motives.

And as noted in the date, we have a higher rate of homicides than many nations, even if firearms are not figured in.

2. If you remove St. Louis, Baltimore, Chicago, and Detroit, all cities with extreme gun control laws, the entire United States falls from 3rd to 189th in murder rate; that said, it does not tell the tale of what murders would have occurred regardless of access to a firearm...sometimes, a person wants to kill someone so badly, they'll use anything:

a. You can never know the counterfactual, so no, we have no idea how many murders would have happened if firearms didn't exist. However, we do have quite a few without firearms anyway.

b. As was pointed out your third link didn't exactly back your claim.

c. Yes, the worst violence is found in certain cities, and even more specifically, tends to cluster in some particular neighborhoods. This begins to answer one of your questions about what is driving some of the violence. In those areas it is often drug related.

d. A fair number are crimes of passion as well, such as domestic killings.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Northam is a despot and doesn't like people resisting his edicts.

That's not what this is about. The law is already on the books. The addition of guns to a protest would not make the protest any more likely to cause the law to be repealed.

 

[KCfromNC]

any crime even infractions which really are not considered crimes.

Including law enforcement who refused to enforce the bill mentioned in the OP?

 

[98cwitr]

lol, you didn't even read your third link, did you? It lays out pretty clearly why that claim of yours that I bolded is not true.

I did. Did you read my other two? All three contain the statistics that you'd need to understand the argument. That said, let me remove the opinions and just get to the data so we can make a decision based on empirical data from 2017 (had a hard time finding weapons at the city level, so I took the state ratio and applied to city numbers):

St. Louis
Murders: 205
Murders via gun: 177 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Baltimore
Murders: 342
Murders via gun: 266 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Chicago
Murders: 653
Murders via gun: 556 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Detroit
Murders: 267
Murders via gun: 179 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Total for all 4: 1467
Total murders via guns: 1178
Difference: 289
US Total Murder (2017): 17,284

US Ranked #88 in homicide rate
US Ranked #16 in gun homicide (per capita)

 

[98cwitr]

There's already a thread about this in "Current News and Events" (for Christians).

Northam is a despot and doesn't like people resisting his edicts.

VCDL is filing an injunction on the executive order

 

[Ana the Ist]

I did. Did you read my other two? All three contain the statistics that you'd need to understand the argument. That said, let me remove the opinions and just get to the data so we can make a decision based on empirical data from 2017 (had a hard time finding weapons at the city level, so I took the state ratio and applied to city numbers):

St. Louis
Murders: 205
Murders via gun: 177 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Baltimore
Murders: 342
Murders via gun: 266 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Chicago
Murders: 653
Murders via gun: 556 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Detroit
Murders: 267
Murders via gun: 179 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Total for all 4: 1467

US Total Murder (2017): 17,284

US Ranked #88 in homicide rate
US Ranked #16 in gun homicide (per capita)

..

I clinked on one of your links regarding this legality of guns used to kill.

I didn't see any stats regarding legality of the gun used to kill. Did you post the wrong link?

 

[dogs4thewin]

Including law enforcement who refused to enforce the bill mentioned in the OP?

If said law enforcement are here illegally.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I did. Did you read my other two?

Yeah. And I struggled to see how the first two were even relevant. That WND piece in particular is a hot mess.

All three contain the statistics that you'd need to understand the argument.

No, they don't.

That said, let me remove the opinions and just get to the data so we can make a decision based on empirical data from 2017 (had a hard time finding weapons at the city level, so I took the state ratio and applied to city numbers):

St. Louis
Murders: 205
Murders via gun: 177 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Baltimore
Murders: 342
Murders via gun: 266 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Chicago
Murders: 653
Murders via gun: 556 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Detroit
Murders: 267
Murders via gun: 179 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Total for all 4: 1467
Total murders via guns: 1178
Difference: 289
US Total Murder (2017): 17,284

US Ranked #88 in homicide rate
US Ranked #16 in gun homicide (per capita)

uh... ok? That shows nothing.

As your third link points out:

1.) The US isn't #3 in murders.
2.) Removing the most murderous cities doesn't drop us very far because there are still a bunch of other murders.
3.) Removing those cities entirely is silly because cities are where all the people live.
4.) Removing those cities creates an unfair comparison because you're not doing the same thing for all the other countries.
5.) Removing cities may be kind of pointless for this exercise because some of the highest murder rates are in rural areas.

To be blunt - I have no idea what argument you're making or even what argument you think you're making. In post #220, you wrote, "If you remove St. Louis, Baltimore, Chicago, and Detroit, all cities with extreme gun control laws, the entire United States falls from 3rd to 189th in murder rate". And between post #220 and #232, the only other thing you've written that was relevant to that claim was the third link in #220, which says in no uncertain terms that your claim is wrong.

 

[tall73]

I did. Did you read my other two? All three contain the statistics that you'd need to understand the argument. That said, let me remove the opinions and just get to the data so we can make a decision based on empirical data from 2017 (had a hard time finding weapons at the city level, so I took the state ratio and applied to city numbers):

St. Louis
Murders: 205
Murders via gun: 177 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Baltimore
Murders: 342
Murders via gun: 266 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Chicago
Murders: 653
Murders via gun: 556 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Detroit
Murders: 267
Murders via gun: 179 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Total for all 4: 1467
Total murders via guns: 1178
Difference: 289
US Total Murder (2017): 17,284

US Ranked #88 in homicide rate
US Ranked #16 in gun homicide (per capita)

If you remove the most violent cities from any country their stats will be better.

What this might illustrate, however, is that US States, with their own legal framework for guns, may be a better way to compare effectiveness of laws, than the entire US.

This is especially true because some states are as large as other countries.

 

[tall73]

I did. Did you read my other two? All three contain the statistics that you'd need to understand the argument. That said, let me remove the opinions and just get to the data so we can make a decision based on empirical data from 2017 (had a hard time finding weapons at the city level, so I took the state ratio and applied to city numbers):

St. Louis
Murders: 205
Murders via gun: 177 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Baltimore
Murders: 342
Murders via gun: 266 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Chicago
Murders: 653
Murders via gun: 556 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Detroit
Murders: 267
Murders via gun: 179 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Total for all 4: 1467
Total murders via guns: 1178
Difference: 289
US Total Murder (2017): 17,284

US Ranked #88 in homicide rate
US Ranked #16 in gun homicide (per capita)

More to the point, even within cities with a high homicide rate, most of the killing is concentrated within a few neighborhoods. This is often related to drugs, gang activity, etc.

What’s the Homicide Capital of America? Murder Rates in U.S. Cities, Ranked

In 2016, five police districts overseeing only 8 percent of Chicago’s population recorded around 32 percent of its murders. Two Chicago neighborhoods, Burnside and Fuller Park, counted a rate of more than 100 killings per 100,000 people. People living in them were nine times more likely to be shot in their neighborhood than in the city’s safest quarters.

Last year in St. Louis, most killings were concentrated in neighborhoods like Greater Ville and the adjacent JeffVanderLou, which sit just a few miles from the city’s downtown, and each recorded a murder rate of 162. The same disparities exist for gun violence overall. Forty percent of non-fatal shooting incidents in 2017 occurred in only 10 of St. Louis’s 88 neighborhoods.

This is also why mass shootings get more coverage, and more calls for actions. Most people live in relatively safe neighborhoods. They are not impacted by a lot of the violence that happens. But a mass shooting can happen anywhere, so it hits home.

If you are one of the unfortunate people who live in these dangerous neighborhoods because you cannot afford to live elsewhere, then the problem is always front and center.

When people from other countries see our statistics they sometimes wonder why Americans would want to live with such levels of violence. And the answer is, because most Americans don't live with those levels of violence.

 

[tall73]

I did. Did you read my other two? All three contain the statistics that you'd need to understand the argument. That said, let me remove the opinions and just get to the data so we can make a decision based on empirical data from 2017 (had a hard time finding weapons at the city level, so I took the state ratio and applied to city numbers):

St. Louis
Murders: 205
Murders via gun: 177 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Baltimore
Murders: 342
Murders via gun: 266 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Chicago
Murders: 653
Murders via gun: 556 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Detroit
Murders: 267
Murders via gun: 179 (how many of these were legally obtained?)

Total for all 4: 1467
Total murders via guns: 1178
Difference: 289
US Total Murder (2017): 17,284

US Ranked #88 in homicide rate
US Ranked #16 in gun homicide (per capita)

Chicago is an odd one to include for your purposes, because its rate is not as high as some others. But probably it was included because of the sheer numbers.

 

[Aldebaran]

Sounds like someone else I know.

This is not a Nancy Pelosi thread.