The sheep and goat judgment of Matthew 25: The Progressive Dispensationalist view

[Guojing]

No, you need to understand that JESUS PROMISED
the church would be infiltrated by unsaved "tares" (sown by Satan)
and the "leaven" of their false doctrines would corrupt the churches and their gospels.


That is why we have thousands of denominations and churches preaching false gospels.
That is EXPECTED


It does not matter what "other Christians" preach...
the vast majority MUST be preaching false doctrines,
we can see the contradictions very easily.


The measure of Biblical Truth is NOT what others believe
it is finding "harmony of Scripture" with ALL RELATED passages.

/

All of us have an interpretive grid we used to understand scripture.

My objective is more to understand the grid that others used, and to understand how they come to the doctrines they hold on to.

 

[d taylor]

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Are You Cross Wise?

Search Results for “Salvation in Matthew” – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[Maria Billingsley]

So to be clear, to you:

Faith is believing God for what he says.

Works is what man do.

But for faith to save, the faith must result in good works for that faith not to be dead faith.

But still faith has nothing to do with works.

Is that the correct conclusion to draw?

Good works are the result of faith. God does the work of regeneration through His Holy Spirit conforming us to the image of Christ and He did good works daily. We must make the first move and ,believe/ have faith ,so our part is not effortless. There is a choice that must be made first. What you are saying is still not what I am trying to convey. Let's give it a rest. Be blessed.

 

[d taylor]

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When a centurion came to Jesus all that was required of the centurion for his servant to be healed was faith.
In which Jesus actually praised the centurion for his faith. It did not require a life time of obedience or the keeping of the law.

Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6 saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented.” And Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.”

The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.” And his servant was healed that same hour.

It is stated in The Bible it is faith that can move mountains, not obedience, the keeping of laws, baptism, obeying the 10 commandments, etc... Not only is it faith that is stated as able to move mountains but only faith the size of a mustard seed.

That shows how simple God has made it for a person to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life, but it is hard at the same time.

Because people (not God) have not believed God's promise of faith being the way to receive eternal life salvation and have made it hard by adding to, or even changing the meaning of faith to obedience. By saying you do not have real faith unless your saying you believe is accompanied by works. Or even worst they say it is not by faith but by obedience by the keeping of the law or some other man created obedience route.

 

[RoadoftheGypsy]

The Judgment in Matthew 25:31-34, is of the nations; NOT for individuals.
I view it as the rewards which Jesus brings with Him; Matthew 16:27 The people groups who helped other nations now.

The Judgment for all the people who have ever lived, is after the Millennium. Rev 2-:11-15
That is what Matthew 25:46 refers to.

How do you divorce the context like that lol. Matthew 25:31-34 is nation judgment, but Matthew 25:46 is the judgment of all people.... its still talking about the same sheep and goats in Matthew 25:46 ..

 

[Timtofly]

So why do you think Jesus went on and on about taking care of Jewish brethren during the Tribulation there, when it determines nothing at all?

Jesus never said those works were during the Tribulation.

Jesus was pointing out as Israelites they were keeping the law of good works. But that did not make them redeemed, nor why He chose them to be redeemed. They failed to accept Him as Messiah, and were not part of the church. But they were still covered by the blood, and still chosen to rule. Those works just pointed out who they were, even if they never realized who they were as an Israelite.

Jesus did a similar choice with one disciple. John 1:47-49


"Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel."

Was Nathaniel purposely doing stuff, to be chosen as a disciple? Or did God place in their hearts and minds a propensity to do good, and that is why they were chosen as sheep? Either way they were selected out of the earth, even though they never accepted Jesus as the Messiah. But they will follow Him as their King.

This judgment is not about living right after the Second Coming, and the church removed. We don't even know how long these 6 Trumpets will last. Their time keeps getting shorter, the longer the 5th and 6th Seal are not opened. God is still allowing the church age to keep bringing in the fulness of the Gentiles. What they are doing now is being who they are, just like the church is being the church.

The church meets the Lord in the air. The sheep meet their King in Jerusalem.

 

[Guojing]

Jesus never said those works were during the Tribulation.

Jesus was pointing out as Israelites they were keeping the law of good works. But that did not make them redeemed, nor why He chose them to be redeemed. They failed to accept Him as Messiah, and were not part of the church. But they were still covered by the blood, and still chosen to rule. Those works just pointed out who they were, even if they never realized who they were as an Israelite.

Matthew 24 and 25 is about Daniel's 70th week

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

You have a different understanding of these 2 chapters? That during Jacob's trouble, the antichrist will be persecuting the nation of Israel?

 

[Guojing]

Good works are the result of faith. God does the work of regeneration through His Holy Spirit conforming us to the image of Christ and He did good works daily. We must make the first move and ,believe/ have faith ,so our part is not effortless. There is a choice that must be made first. What you are saying is still not what I am trying to convey. Let's give it a rest. Be blessed.

Basically, you are saying that saving faith involves works.

But you also want to say its not works that save, but faith only.

You are reasoning in a manner similar to Martin Luther's point about "Its faith alone that saves, but the faith that saves is never alone".

 

[Guojing]

When a centurion came to Jesus all that was required of the centurion for his servant to be healed was faith.​

In which Jesus actually praised the centurion for his faith. It did not require a life time of obedience or the keeping of the law.

You are moving to another topic, but in case you are curious, the centurion blessed Israel too by building them a synagogue. This was revealed in Luke's account.

Jesus grant him that healing request immediately, instead of subjecting him to further tests like the Canaanite Lady, because of Genesis 12:3, Genesis 22:18, God promised Abraham that whoever bless his physical seed will also be blessed by God.

No doubt the centurion had faith too, that impressed Jesus greatly, but its a fallacy to believe that "all that was required of the centurion for his servant to be healed was faith." since during that time, gentiles were cut off from God (Ephesians 2:11-12, Matthew 15:24)

 

[Marilyn C]

I was listening to this podcast by the Grace Evangelical society If a Man is Saved by Faith Alone, What is Happening in Matthew 25 With the Sheep and the Goats? – Grace Evangelical Society

Now I understand why and how some Christians believe that Matthew 24:13, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.", saved there refers to only physical salvation, as in saved from dying physically during the Tribulation, and not eternal salvation.

To support that belief, they cross reference to Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

So they reason that, since the elect there, by definition, represents those who are eternally saved by God, the saved in vs 22 must therefore represent something else other than eternal salvation, allowing them to believe that it therefore must be physical.

By holding to that doctrine, they are able to reconcile the sheep and goat judgement with their core doctrine that salvation is always by faith alone without works.

If I understand their reasoning correctly, here is their argument:

Premise 1: 100% of those unfaithful believers would have physically died during the Tribulation
Premise 2: Those who face the sheep and goat judgement after the Tribulation are 100% faithful believers
Conclusion: They are therefore deemed as sheep, by definition.

This argument seems tautological, true by definition.

My question is "Who then will be the goats in that judgement? Will those unfaithful believers who physically died, be resurrected to face that judgement as well, and thus they will be those goats?"

Any comments on their reasoning?

Hi Guojing,

God`s word tells us that the `goats,` are those of the nations that did not look after the Jews in the trib. (Matt. 25: 45. `the least of these...` (MY BRETHREN).`

 

[Timtofly]

You have a different understanding of these 2 chapters? That during Jacob's trouble, the antichrist will be persecuting the nation of Israel?

No, the beast comes after the 7th Trumpet starts sounding. Satan is in control of the entire world, after the Trumpets and Thunders. There is no one left to persecute, except those who choose to be beheaded. How can you persecute one who has their head chopped off?

No one is living through this time. A final harvest is just that, final. The sheep and goats are separated and removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The wheat is removed from the earth. The tares are cast into the LOF. Every action is final that is carried out by an angel.

 

[Guojing]

No, the beast comes after the 7th Trumpet starts sounding. Satan is in control of the entire world, after the Trumpets and Thunders. There is no one left to persecute, except those who choose to be beheaded. How can you persecute one who has their head chopped off?

No one is living through this time. A final harvest is just that, final. The sheep and goats are separated and removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The wheat is removed from the earth. The tares are cast into the LOF. Every action is final that is carried out by an angel.

I see, no wonder you have a different interpretation of the sheep and goat judgement.

 

[Timtofly]

I see, no wonder you have a different interpretation of the sheep and goat judgement.

No one has really developed the point trillions of angels are coming to earth at the 6th Seal. They don't stand around like lamppost, and light up the streets at night. They are here to remove one's soul from Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

 

[FPhelps]

7 different gospels in the bible, that is is some of the worst theology I have ever read, there is one gospel and it is everlasting.
revelation 14.6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. Read the word everlasting !!!!!!!! Also did you know preaching another gospel can get you cursed Galatians 1.8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. It sounds extremely serious to me.

 

[Guojing]

Also did you know preaching another gospel can get you cursed Galatians 1.8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. It sounds extremely serious to me.

Have you ever wondered why Paul used the words unto you, twice?

Who do you think you refers to, given what happened in Galatians 2:7-9?

 

[FPhelps]

I'm not buying that, who could actually believe it these doctrines? It's ideas like this that keep people away from God and Christianity. You believe that God has 2 separate groups of people like Jews and gentiles. God is no respector persons

 

[FPhelps]

How do you divorce the context like that lol. Matthew 25:31-34 is nation judgment, but Matthew 25:46 is the judgment of all people.... its still talking about the same sheep and goats in Matthew 25:46 ..

But faith without works is dead and there is no nothing to say it is about nations.

 

[Guojing]

I'm not buying that, who could actually believe it these doctrines? It's ideas like this that keep people away from God and Christianity. You believe that God has 2 separate groups of people like Jews and gentiles. God is no respector persons

Ephesians 2:11-12 has the distinction in time past.

But now, Ephesians 2:13 onwards, you are correct, God is no longer making that distinction.

Would you agree with that?

 

[LW97Nils]

I am more and more considering the facts that the Matthew 25 judgement will actually match with the great white throne. It says "He shall seperate". It may be a long process of the matter.

 

[Timtofly]

I am more and more considering the facts that the Matthew 25 judgement will actually match with the great white throne. It says "He shall seperate". It may be a long process of the matter.

It is not. God sits on the GWT. God has always sat on the GWT. The footstool or base is on the earth and the rest is in the firmament. David in the Psalms already described the GWT. Isaiah already declared the throne in the OT.


The throne Jesus sits on will be in Jerusalem. Satan will sit on it during the 42 months of AoD. Satan is not going to sit on the GWT. God will never vacate His GWT.