The sheep and goat judgment of Matthew 25: The Progressive Dispensationalist view

[d taylor]

But they are still born again, correct?

So if you believe once you are born again, you cannot lose that status thru lack of works, why will they enter that fire?

Do you agree with Wilkin in that link you provided, where he clearly states "Unfaithful believers will not physically survive the Great Tribulation. For this reason, no unfaithful believers are represented in the judgment of the nations"

If they are not represented there at all, where do they go at the end of that judgement?

A born again child of God can not become unborn.

They are dead believers so they go where any other dead believer goes to The Judgment seat of The Messiah.

The judgment of the sheep and goats is a judgment of alive physically humans.

 

[Guojing]

A born again child of God can not become unborn.

They are dead believers so they go where any other dead believer goes to The Judgment seat of The Messiah.

The judgment of the sheep and goats is a judgment of alive physically humans.

Where is this "Judgment seat of The Messiah" found in scripture?

And at this Judgment seat of The Messiah, they will automatically be entering the kingdom since, as you said, "A born again child of God can not become unborn".

So isn't that "escaping the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels", as stated in Matthew 25:41 (‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.)?

 

[d taylor]

Where is this "Judgment seat of The Messiah" found in scripture?

And at this Judgment seat of The Messiah, they will automatically be entering the kingdom since, as you said, "A born again child of God can not become unborn".

So isn't that "escaping the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels", as stated in Matthew 25:41 (‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.)?

1st Corinthians 3
2nd Corinthians 5

For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

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Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.

When Is the Judgment Seat of Christ? – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[Guojing]

If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

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Okay, you are talking about the bema seat of the Body of Christ, where salvation is assured.

Back to my other question, "So isn't that "escaping the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels", as stated in Matthew 25:41 (‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.)?

Would you agree?

 

[d taylor]

Okay, you are talking about the bema seat of the Body of Christ, where salvation is assured.

Back to my other question, "So isn't that "escaping the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels", as stated in Matthew 25:41 (‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.)?

Would you agree?

All believers escape the fire meant for satan, whether they are a faithful believer or an unfaithful believer.

 

[Guojing]

All believers escape the fire meant for satan, whether they are a faithful believer or an unfaithful believer.

I see, so to sum up what Wilkin is saying in that link you provided

1. Faithful Jewish and Gentile believers are automatically sheep in the sheep and goat judgement, regardless on whether they actually fed and took care of Jesus's Jewish brethren during the Tribulation
2. Unfaithful believers, even though they are physically killed during the Tribulation, also escape the fire meant for Satan, regardless on whether they actually fed and took care of Jesus's Jewish brethren during the Tribulation.
3. Unbelieving gentiles, since they never put their faith in Christ, are deemed as goats, regardless on whether they actually fed and took care of Jesus's Jewish brethren during the Tribulation.

Since all these fates are determined regardless on whether they actually fed and took care of Jesus's Jewish brethren during the Tribulation, why does Jesus bother to even say anything regarding taking care of them?

 

[d taylor]

I see, so to sum up what Wilkin is saying in that link you provided

1. Faithful Jewish and Gentile believers are automatically sheep in the sheep and goat judgement, regardless on whether they actually fed and took care of Jesus's Jewish brethren during the Tribulation
2. Unfaithful believers, even though they are physically killed during the Tribulation, also escape the fire meant for Satan, regardless on whether they actually fed and took care of Jesus's Jewish brethren during the Tribulation.
3. Unbelieving gentiles, since they never put their faith in Christ, are deemed as goats, regardless on whether they actually fed and took care of Jesus's Jewish brethren during the Tribulation.

Since all these fates are determined regardless on whether they actually fed and took care of Jesus's Jewish brethren during the Tribulation, why does Jesus bother to even say anything regarding taking care of them?

Where in the verses about the sheep and the goats, that you get the idea, it is a possibility, that unbelieving people (goats) fed any Jewish believers.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

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[Maria Billingsley]

( There are some glitches when posting so this is directed to @ Guoging. I am responding to post 18)

"Show me your faith by your works". Our works show our faith as there are fruits of His Holy Spirit that manifest in the beliver. All through scripture we read about those who are not in the Body of Christ . These are " wolves in sheep's clothing", the tares among the wheat, the goats among the sheep. All metaphorically speaking.
Blessings

 

[Timtofly]

The Body of Christ, where Jews and gentiles are equal before God, did not exist until Paul, so I would disagree that we will face the sheep and goat judgement.

Instead, the context of the sheep and goat judgement is found in the first verse, where "nations" are judged. It clearly refers to only gentiles who lived thru the tribulation.

So if I am one of those gentiles, I will need works, together with my faith, as you correctly quoted from James, to be considered saved in the millennial kingdom.

One of the works I will need to do, as the progressive dispy stated correctly, is to feed the Jewish brethren of Jesus who are being persecuted.

These sheep and goats are the Israelites scattered among the nations, even in Israel. It is not about the church at all.

Not all of Israel will be saved. Only a remnant, the sheep. They don't go to the heavenly kingdom. They rule and reign with Christ on the earth, for 1,000 years. They are part of the camp of the saints. They are made redeemed instantly by Jesus when He calls them sheep. They are removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and given God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

They are part of the blessed in the first resurrection. The first resurrection is physical out of Adam's dead flesh. This is an event during Jacob's trouble, known as the GT. Obviously because most of them will be sent to the LOF as goats. That is God's judgment on them, because they rejected salvation into the church.

 

[Guojing]

Where in the verses about the sheep and the goats, that you get the idea, it is a possibility, that unbelieving people (goats) fed any Jewish believers.

True, they might not have, but neither did unfaithful believers correct?

Since they never survived the Tribulation and, according to you, they skip the sheep and goat judgement, and straightaway go to the bema seat of Christ.

The main question was "Does feeding Jewish brethren matters at all in distinguishing between sheep and goats"?

 

[Guojing]

These sheep and goats are the Israelites scattered among the nations, even in Israel. It is not about the church at all.

Not all of Israel will be saved. Only a remnant, the sheep. They don't go to the heavenly kingdom. They rule and reign with Christ on the earth, for 1,000 years. They are part of the camp of the saints. They are made redeemed instantly by Jesus when He calls them sheep. They are removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and given God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

They are part of the blessed in the first resurrection. The first resurrection is physical out of Adam's dead flesh. This is an event during Jacob's trouble, known as the GT. Obviously because most of them will be sent to the LOF as goats. That is God's judgment on them, because they rejected salvation into the church.

So when you see the word "nations" (plural) in the beginning of that passage, you still regard them as "Israelites" and not gentiles?

Also, do you agree that feeding and taking care, or not, the Jewish brethren of Jesus determines whether you are a sheep or a goat in that judgement?

 

[Guojing]

( There are some glitches when posting so this is directed to @ Guoging. I am responding to post 18)

"Show me your faith by your works". Our works show our faith as there are fruits of His Holy Spirit that manifest in the beliver. All through scripture we read about those who are not in the Body of Christ . These are " wolves in sheep's clothing", the tares among the wheat, the goats among the sheep. All metaphorically speaking.
Blessings

So, in your view, there was never a time where salvation is based "faith alone in Christ's finished work on the cross"?

It always requires us to show our faith by our works, and in this case, feeding and taking care of Jesus's Jewish brethren?

 

[d taylor]

True, they might not have, but neither did unfaithful believers correct?

Since they never survived the Tribulation and, according to you, they skip the sheep and goat judgement, and straightaway go to the bema seat of Christ.

The main question was "Does feeding Jewish brethren matters at all in distinguishing between sheep and goats"?

Unfaithful believers i doubt were around, more than likely they have already died. Just like the apostles abondoned Jesus when the time became tough at his capture and execution on the cross. They abandoned their faith when times became hard. More than likely these weak believers will become unfaithful believers especially when the time gets tough during the tribulation, especially the last half..

I would not think so, what distinguishes people when it come to eternal position, destination is believers and unbelievers. The sheep are call righteous, the only way to be righteous is by faith in The Messiah.

 

[Guojing]

I would not think so, what distinguishes people when it come to eternal position, destination is believers and unbelievers. The sheep are call righteous, the only way to be righteous is by faith in The Messiah.

That is why my final question to you at that post was

Since all these fates are determined regardless on whether they actually fed and took care of Jesus's Jewish brethren during the Tribulation, why does Jesus bother to even say anything regarding taking care of them?

 

[d taylor]

That is why my final question to you at that post was

Since all these fates are determined regardless on whether they actually fed and took care of Jesus's Jewish brethren during the Tribulation, why does Jesus bother to even say anything regarding taking care of them?

Because i believe, it was the time they were living in. The tribulation will not be like today, where a believer can believe and then go about their daily lives. Really not giving much thought as to serving Christ. That time will be a time of a believer really being called to be a brave and standout believer. No shrinking away from service, if so God may remove them.

 

[Guojing]

Because i believe, it was the time they were living in. The tribulation will not be like today, where a believer can believe and then go about their daily lives.

Ahh, so you do believe that during the Tribulation, faith alone without works, is no longer sufficient for salvation?

 

[d taylor]

Ahh, so you do believe that during the Tribulation, faith alone without works, is no longer sufficient for salvation?

No i never said that. Salvation is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow the way to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life never changes.

 

[Guojing]

No i never said that. Salvation is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow the way to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life never changes.

So when you state the following

The tribulation will not be like today, where a believer can believe and then go about their daily lives. Really not giving much thought as to serving Christ. That time will be a time of a believer really being called to be a brave and standout believer. No shrinking away from service, if so God may remove them.

When you said remove, you are only thinking about "being physically killed/allowed to be killed" by God?

But nothing to do with eternal salvation, which is always a free gift even during the Tribulation?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

So, in your view, there was never a time where salvation is based "faith alone in Christ's finished work on the cross"?

It always requires us to show our faith by our works, and in this case, feeding and taking care of Jesus's Jewish brethren?

Why alone? Abraham had faith and he also did works that God asked him to do. If one has faith and never shows that faith through works then it is dead. Its not what is required it is the result of our faith.