The sheep and goat judgment of Matthew 25: The Progressive Dispensationalist view

[LW97Nils]

It is not. God sits on the GWT. God has always sat on the GWT.

Jesus IS God

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus IS God

Jesus is not the God that sits on the GWT.

Jesus is the person who sits on the glorious throne in Jerusalem at the Second Coming.

If you do not recognize the Trinity, I don't think you can even post in this section.

The Lord as one contains God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Are you the GWT the Holy Spirit sits on when you submit to the Holy Spirit? Or is your body the temple? The Holy Spirit is God.

 

[Guojing]

I am more and more considering the facts that the Matthew 25 judgement will actually match with the great white throne. It says "He shall seperate". It may be a long process of the matter.

The sheep and goat judgement is before the 1000 year millennial reign.

The GWT judgement is after that.

 

[LW97Nils]

The sheep and goat judgement is before the 1000 year millennial reign.

Either that, or DURING.

 

[Guojing]

Either that, or DURING.

But the GWT is definitely AFTER.

Would you agree?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Context determines how something should be interpreted. Beginning with Matthew 24:40 up until this judgment in Matthew 25, what is the context involving? It is clearly involving the body of Christ, and that there are profitable servants and unprofitable servants in the body of Christ. Therefore, obviously the sheep represent the profitable servants in the body of Christ, the goats represent the unprofitable servants in the body of Christ.

Not only that, we should also be interpreting the sheep and goats judgment in light of the following.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Pertaining to verses 15 and 16, who is it that does what is recorded in verse 16? The sheep or the goats? Obviously, the goats.


And that we should also be interpreting the sheep and goats judgment in light of the following.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Who is it that does the will of His Father which is in heaven? The sheep or the goats? Obviously, the sheep.

Who is it that verse 23 will apply to? The sheep or the goats? Obviously, the goats.

Who is it that verse 24 and 25 applies to? The sheep or the goats? Obviously, the sheep.

Who is it that verse 26 and 27 applies to? The sheep or the goats? Obviously, the goats.

Notice what verse 26 says since this is important---And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not.


Also take notice what the sheep and goats judgment is involving.

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


The same thing Matthew 7:21 is involving since both passages are involving entering into the kingdom of heaven. And that unless one does the will of His Father which is in heaven, that one will not inherit the kingdom.

Therefore, regardless whether one agrees with me or not, I reject any interpretation regarding the sheep and goats judgment that is not taking context into consideration before deciding what that judgment is involving.

Something else I usually like to point out which undeniably proves I am correct, that the goats don't equal the wicked in general, meaning from the beginning of time through the end of time, but is only involving the NT church, is this.

Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?


This is how the goats answer Jesus. And it is obvious that the 'thee' at the end of this verse is meaning Jesus, therefore, until Jesus is born first, no one before He was born, such as Cain for example, is going to be answering Jesus in that manner. In order to answer Jesus in that manner, it requires that one has to first acknowledge Him.

I was just going through this thread from the beginning and saw your post. I know it was from awhile back at this point, but I have to point out one thing here regarding what you said at the end of your post. You said that the goats can't be referring to the wicked in general because they call Jesus "Lord". Do you somehow not know that one day everyone, including the wicked, will acknowledge Him as Lord? Because of that your argument here is not valid.

Please read this:

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The wicked will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord some day. It will be too late for them to be saved if they don't do that until judgment day, but they will acknowledge Him as Lord.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Jesus is not the God that sits on the GWT.

Wrong.

John 5:22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,

Jesus is the person who sits on the glorious throne in Jerusalem at the Second Coming.

If you do not recognize the Trinity, I don't think you can even post in this section.

The Lord as one contains God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Are you the GWT the Holy Spirit sits on when you submit to the Holy Spirit? Or is your body the temple? The Holy Spirit is God.

Where did he say that he doesn't recognize the Trinity? All he said was that Jesus is God, which is true. Stop judging people.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The sheep and goat judgement is before the 1000 year millennial reign.

The GWT judgement is after that.

I disagree. How can that be? The following verses are clearly referring to the same thing:

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Guojing]

I disagree. How can that be? The following verses are clearly referring to the same thing:

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

When you said "clearly referring", you mean based on your particular interpretation.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

When you said "clearly referring", you mean based on your particular interpretation.

Yes, of course. Did you really need to point that out as if people don't already know that? I don't believe so. We all are giving our interpretations here. That goes without saying. Everyone understands that. No explanation for that is needed. We're adults here. If there were some kids posting here, then maybe that would need to be explained, but that is not the case.

Anyway, can you explain how Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 20:15 can possibly be referring to entirely different events? Does Revelation 20:15 not specifically indicate that all whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire at the same time? I believe so. So, with that being the case, how could Matthew 25:41 be speaking of some other time that people whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the fire?

 

[Guojing]

Yes, of course. Did you really need to point that out as if people don't already know that? I don't believe so. We all are giving our interpretations here. That goes without saying. Everyone understands that. No explanation for that is needed. We're adults here. If there were some kids posting here, then maybe that would need to be explained, but that is not the case.

Anyway, can you explain how Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 20:15 can possibly be referring to entirely different events? Does Revelation 20:15 not specifically indicate that all whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire at the same time? I believe so. So, with that being the case, how could Matthew 25:41 be speaking of some other time that people whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the fire?

If you truly believe that, you will not use phrases like "clearly referring". as if EVERYONE who reads it plainly and literally will come to the same conclusion as you.

Matthew 25:41 takes place immediately when Christ returns for Israel (Matthew 25:6,19, 31), after the Tribulation.

The GWT judgement, as stated in the Revelation account, is after the 1000 years reign of Christ on Earth (Rev 20:7-11)

 

[Spiritual Jew]

If you truly believe that, you will not use phrases like "clearly referring". as if EVERYONE who reads it plainly and literally will come to the same conclusion as you.

Don't be so sensitive when someone shows confidence in their view. You are the only one here who complains about things like this. Do you know why? Because everyone else here but you knows we are sharing our opinions on here whether we specifically state that or not. It goes without saying.

Matthew 25:41 takes place immediately when Christ returns for Israel (Matthew 25:6,19, 31), after the Tribulation.

The GWT judgement, as started in the Revelation account, is after the 1000 years reign of Christ on Earth (Rev 20:7-11)

So, explain to me why Revelation 20:15 indicates that everyone whose name is not written in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire at that time (obviously, after the thousand years and Satan's little season) if some will have already been cast into the lake of fire 1,000+ years before that? Who exactly do you think the "goats" are that will get cast into the lake of fire when Christ returns?

 

[Guojing]

So, explain to me why Revelation 20:15 indicates that everyone whose name is not written in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire at that time (obviously, after the thousand years and Satan's little season) if some will have already been cast into the lake of fire 1,000+ years before that?

There will be mortal people who are born on Earth during the 1000 year reign.

They will make those necessary annual trips to Jerusalem to worship Christ then (Zechariah 14:16), but their hearts will not be for him.

They are the ones who will join Satan during that short rebellion after the 1000 reign, and will be cast into the lake of fire after that during the GWT judgement

 

[Timtofly]

Wrong.

John 5:22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,

Where did he say that he doesn't recognize the Trinity? All he said was that Jesus is God, which is true. Stop judging people.

That is currently the default position until Jesus hands back creation to God who sits on the GWT. There is no creation at that point. Do you not understand 1 Corinthians 15:28?

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Christ is the judge now and until the end of the 1,000 year reign. But even Christ submits to God, at the point in Revelation 20 when heaven and earth are no longer in existence. God and the GWT is all there is between the two creations.

So, Jesus does not have to ever sit on the GWT to have judgment authority. Jesus will have authority on the throne of David (called the glorious throne in Matthew 25) for 1,000 years after the sheep and goats of current Israel, and those still scattered abroad, are judged. But that is not the GWT. The GWT has been in place since day one, with the GWT being both in the firmament and on the earth. It is huge, but we just cannot see it in our spiritual blindness.

 

[Timtofly]

I disagree. How can that be? The following verses are clearly referring to the same thing:

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

You just don't get it.

Those in Matthew 25 have never physically died at that point.

Those in Revelation 20 are those who physically died and are either in sheol or Death. Two distinct places the dead go to after physically dying.

Those in sheol are still in the Lamb's book of life, until removed at the GWT.

Those in Death have been removed either prior to, those with the mark, physically dying or those in the Millennium who were never there, because they are not from nor ever were in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, so were not found in the Lamb's book of life, because they never had to be there.

If there is a resurrection at the GWT, those who once were in sheol finally accepted God's Atonement, and were granted everlasting life and avoided the second death. That is what a first resurrection entails, avoiding the second death.

If they still reject God, they are not resurrected. They are still dead and cast into the LOF.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

There will be mortal people who are born on Earth during the 1000 year reign.

They will make those necessary annual trips to Jerusalem to worship Christ then (Zechariah 14:16), but their hearts will not be for him.

They are the ones who will join Satan during that short rebellion after the 1000 reign, and will be cast into the lake of fire after that during the GWT judgement

Again, Revelation 20:15 indicates that all whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire at that time (which we all agree will be after the thousand years and Satan's little season). So, it makes no sense to have some whose names are not written in the book of life being cast into the lake of fire at any time before that.

Scripture repeatedly speaks of a single judgment day and not multiple judgment days as you believe.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You just don't get it.

LOL. That's hilarious coming from you.

Those in Matthew 25 have never physically died at that point.

Where is your evidence to support this statement?

Those in Revelation 20 are those who physically died and are either in sheol or Death. Two distinct places the dead go to after physically dying.

LOL. You think Death is a literal place that the dead go to? Where is it?

Those in sheol are still in the Lamb's book of life, until removed at the GWT.

What is this statement based on? All you do is make statements like this while doing nothing to back them up. Do you expect to be taken seriously when that is the case?

Those in Death have been removed either prior to, those with the mark, physically dying or those in the Millennium who were never there, because they are not from nor ever were in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, so were not found in the Lamb's book of life, because they never had to be there.

This is unintelligible.

If there is a resurrection at the GWT, those who once were in sheol finally accepted God's Atonement, and were granted everlasting life and avoided the second death. That is what a first resurrection entails, avoiding the second death.

Unbelievers will be resurrected as well and they will be cast into the lake of fire. Have you never read these passages:

Daniel 12:1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

This shows that unbelievers (those who have done what is evil" will be resurrected unto "shame and everlasting contempt" and will be condemned. Clearly, their fate will be the lake of fire because it wouldn't talk about people who are given eternal life being condemned.

If they still reject God, they are not resurrected. They are still dead and cast into the LOF.

Scripture, like I showed above teaches that unbelievers will be resurrected before being condemned, so your beliefs are not based on scripture. It's no wonder that you never even attempt to back up your opinions with scripture.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

That is currently the default position until Jesus hands back creation to God who sits on the GWT. There is no creation at that point. Do you not understand 1 Corinthians 15:28?

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Christ is the judge now and until the end of the 1,000 year reign. But even Christ submits to God, at the point in Revelation 20 when heaven and earth are no longer in existence. God and the GWT is all there is between the two creations.

So, Jesus does not have to ever sit on the GWT to have judgment authority. Jesus will have authority on the throne of David (called the glorious throne in Matthew 25) for 1,000 years after the sheep and goats of current Israel, and those still scattered abroad, are judged. But that is not the GWT. The GWT has been in place since day one, with the GWT being both in the firmament and on the earth. It is huge, but we just cannot see it in our spiritual blindness.

Speak for yourself when you talk about spiritual blindness. Show me where 1 Corinthians 15:28 says anything about the Father judging anyone at that point? You are simply denying what I showed you from scripture which is that the Father has entrusted all judgment to the Son (John 5:22). It doesn't say He did that temporarily. You have to make things up to keep your false beliefs afloat.

 

[Guojing]

Again, Revelation 20:15 indicates that all whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire at that time (which we all agree will be after the thousand years and Satan's little season). So, it makes no sense to have some whose names are not written in the book of life being cast into the lake of fire at any time before that.

Do you understand what born during the 1000 years mean?

If you are only born after the sheep and goat judgement, you are obviously not cast into the lake of fire then.

But your actions after you are born will determine your fate at the GWT throne judgement.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Do you understand what born during the 1000 years mean?

If you are only born after the sheep and goat judgement, you are obviously not cast into the lake of fire then.

But your actions after you are born will determine your fate at the GWT throne judgement.

Do you understand what all whose names are not written in the book of life being judged at the same time means? You have some whose names are not written in the book of life being cast into the lake of fire before the GWT judgment, do you not? You have Matthew 25:41 being fulfilled 1,000+ years before Revelation 20:15, right? Yet, scripture indicates that all of the wicked will be judged and condemned at the same time (John 5:28-29, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 25:31-46, Acts 17:31, Rev 20:15).