The sheep and goat judgment of Matthew 25: The Progressive Dispensationalist view

[Timtofly]

So when you see the word "nations" (plural) in the beginning of that passage, you still regard them as "Israelites" and not gentiles?

Also, do you agree that feeding and taking care, or not, the Jewish brethren of Jesus determines whether you are a sheep or a goat in that judgement?

They are the "Jewish brethren". They were either neglecting the flock, or helping the flock of "Jewish brethren".

"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

A nation does not get up and move around. This is a figure of speech pointing out all the nations present their Israelite sheep scattered over the whole earth. Some of those sheep turn out to be goats, and are sent to the LOF. This is not the church, nor Gentiles. It is called Jacob's trouble for a reason. Jacob being the birth name, no better than a goat. Israel was the changed and redeemed Jacob. The sheep won't have trouble nor condemnation. They are given eternal life like Jacob was changed to Israel.

The 7 Thunders are the judgment of the Gentiles according to their nations. But they are mentioned in Matthew 13 as the wheat and tares. The only chapter giving us any insight into the 7 Thunders. They are not for the church nor Israel. Whoever is revealed information of the 7 Thunders or lives through them will be harvested as wheat or tares. Of course the wheat and sheep reign on earth with Christ as the camp of the saints.

Both the sheep and wheat are removed even before the AoD of Revelation 13. Those harvested in the last 42 months prior to Armageddon, will be those beheaded who refuse to take the mark. All of you are wrong that Armageddon is the Second Coming. The Second Coming happened back in the 6th Seal, because Christ is on earth in Jerusalem for the sheep and goats to physically appear at that throne in Matthew 25:31.

The 7 Trumpets sound to call Israel to assembly. When the 7th Trumpet stops sounding, the 70 weeks of Daniel will be complete, and Israel will enjoy the promises given to them. For 1,000 years, they will live out Isaiah 65.

The woes are given to show Satan actively at work during this GT as well.

 

[Guojing]

Why alone? Abraham had faith and he also did works that God asked him to do. If one has faith and never shows that faith through works then it is dead. Its not what is required it is the result of our faith.

I see, so would you say your definition of "non-dead faith", includes works?

 

[Guojing]

They are the "Jewish brethren". They were either neglecting the flock, or helping the flock of "Jewish brethren".

"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

A nation does not get up and move around. This is a figure of speech pointing out all the nations present their Israelite sheep scattered over the whole earth. Some of those sheep turn out to be goats, and are sent to the LOF. This is not the church, nor Gentiles. It is called Jacob's trouble for a reason. Jacob being the birth name, no better than a goat. Israel was the changed and redeemed Jacob. The sheep won't have trouble nor condemnation. They are given eternal life like Jacob was changed to Israel.

The 7 Thunders are the judgment of the Gentiles according to their nations. But they are mentioned in Matthew 13 as the wheat and tares. The only chapter giving us any insight into the 7 Thunders. They are not for the church nor Israel. Whoever is revealed information of the 7 Thunders or lives through them will be harvested as wheat or tares. Of course the wheat and sheep reign on earth with Christ as the camp of the saints.

Both the sheep and wheat are removed even before the AoD of Revelation 13. Those harvested in the last 42 months prior to Armageddon, will be those beheaded who refuse to take the mark. All of you are wrong that Armageddon is the Second Coming. The Second Coming happened back in the 6th Seal, because Christ is on earth in Jerusalem for the sheep and goats to physically appear at that throne in Matthew 25:31.

The 7 Trumpets sound to call Israel to assembly. When the 7th Trumpet stops sounding, the 70 weeks of Daniel will be complete, and Israel will enjoy the promises given to them. For 1,000 years, they will live out Isaiah 65.

The woes are given to show Satan actively at work during this GT as well.

Your answer to my first question is a yes.

To be clear, is your answer to my second question "do you agree that feeding and taking care, or not, the Jewish brethren of Jesus determines whether you are a sheep or a goat in that judgement?" a yes or no?

 

[Timtofly]

Since all these fates are determined regardless on whether they actually fed and took care of Jesus's Jewish brethren during the Tribulation, why does Jesus bother to even say anything regarding taking care of them?

This is not how they live out the GT.

This is a metric they showed prior to the 6th Seal. I doubt any Jews today are checking to see how well they are doing according to Matthew 25.

But yet as natural Isralites they are doing what comes naturally or they are being irresponsible like many Christians over the last 1993 years. This is not about Salvation. This is about inheriting the earth with their Messiah as King. At the Second Coming it is too late to look for a Messiah. They will bow and admit they failed their King.

 

[Guojing]

This is not how they live out the GT.

This is a metric they showed prior to the 6th Seal. I doubt any Jews today are checking to see how well they are doing according to Matthew 25.

But yet as natural Isralites they are doing what comes naturally or they are being irresponsible like many Christians over the last 1993 years. This is not about Salvation. This is about inheriting the earth with their Messiah as King. At the Second Coming it is too late to look for a Messiah. They will bow and admit they failed their King.

I see, so when Jesus said, in that judgement, those who did not feed the Jewish brethren will be sent to the fire prepared for the devil, you believe that has nothing to do with salvation at all?

 

[Timtofly]

Your answer to my first question is a yes.

To be clear, is your answer to my second question "do you agree that feeding and taking care, or not, the Jewish brethren of Jesus determines whether you are a sheep or a goat in that judgement?" a yes or no?

No. Jesus makes one a sheep. They are all goats. There is no personal decision by the participants. They had to ask what they did, as they had no clue, whatsoever.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I see, so would you say your definition of "non-dead faith", includes works?

I don't think your quite grasping what I am trying to convey here.
Everytime you say " includes works" it can be taken as work driven. This is not the case. The result of faith is good works because one is filled with His Holy Spirit ,ready for good works. Dead faith is the quenching of His Holy Spirit in ones life, producing little or no fruits of the Spirit.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” Ephesians 2:10.

 

[Timtofly]

I see, so when Jesus said, in that judgement, those who did not feed the Jewish brethren will be sent to the fire prepared for the devil, you believe that has nothing to do with salvation at all?

Those cast into the LOF were never saved, so no. This judgment is more about Jesus choosing who are sheep, and who remain lost in their sins.

Up until the Second Coming it mattered not if you were Jew or Gentile. What mattered is putting one's faith in Christ. After the Second Coming, Jesus chooses who of Israel will be redeemed.

When you harmonize Revelation with the Olivet Discourse, you have to realize when the 7th Seal is opened, the Lamb's book of life will be unsealed. Names will be blotted out. The goats, all of Israel, that Jesus rejects will be removed from the Lamb's book of life. So they are not just dead at that point. They are placed into the LOF, the second death, immediately. No one is justifying nor enduring until the end, once they have stood in judgment. Matthew 25:31-46 is the judgment seat of Christ for all of Israel. The only one's left on earth of Israel are the 144k. Even the sheep are removed from earth at this time. That is why the angels are here. To move people to where they are supposed to be. Jesus will not be relying on commercial airlines. The gathering for these Millennium firstfruits is the sea of glass: Revelation 15.

 

[d taylor]

So when you state the following



When you said remove, you are only thinking about "being physically killed/allowed to be killed" by God?

But nothing to do with eternal salvation, which is always a free gift even during the Tribulation?

Yes and example of born again children of God being or having their earthly life ended are.

But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him.
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Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep (died). For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

 

[Guojing]

Yes and example of born again children of God being or having their earthly life ended are.

But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him.
----------------------------------------
Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep (died). For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

Oh, so you also believed Ananias and Saphira are born again, aka unfaithful believers.

That is indeed a popular belief held by Christians who believed that, even during the Tribulation, it is still Romans 4:5 for salvation.

1. If you are not feeding the Jewish brethren of Christ, God takes your life, you skip the sheep and goat judgement and go to the bema seat of Christ judgment (2 Corinthians 5:10), where salvation is assured regardless of your works
2. If you are about to take the mark of the beast, God takes your life, you also go to the bema seat of Christ judgment, where salvation is assured regardless of your works.

The doctrine that "During the Tribulation, God takes the life of unfaithful believers, so that they are still eternally saved in the end" comes from a particular interpretation of Matthew 24:13 and Matthew 24:22, that salvation there refers to physical salvation.

 

[Guojing]

I don't think your quite grasping what I am trying to convey here.
Everytime you say " includes works" it can be taken as work driven. This is not the case. The result of faith is good works because one is filled with His Holy Spirit ,ready for good works. Dead faith is the quenching of His Holy Spirit in ones life, producing little or no fruits of the Spirit.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” Ephesians 2:10.

So to be clear, to you:

Faith is believing God for what he says.

Works is what man do.

But for faith to save, the faith must result in good works for that faith not to be dead faith.

But still faith has nothing to do with works.

Is that the correct conclusion to draw?

 

[Guojing]

No. Jesus makes one a sheep. They are all goats. There is no personal decision by the participants. They had to ask what they did, as they had no clue, whatsoever.

So why do you think Jesus went on and on about taking care of Jewish brethren during the Tribulation there, when it determines nothing at all?

 

[d taylor]

Oh, so you also believed Ananias and Saphira are born again, aka unfaithful believers.

That is indeed a popular belief held by Christians who believed that, even during the Tribulation, it is still Romans 4:5 for salvation.

1. If you are not feeding the Jewish brethren of Christ, God takes your life, you skip the sheep and goat judgement and go to the bema seat of Christ judgment (2 Corinthians 5:10), where salvation is assured regardless of your works
2. If you are about to take the mark of the beast, God takes your life, you also go to the bema seat of Christ judgment, where salvation is assured regardless of your works.

The doctrine that "During the Tribulation, God takes the life of unfaithful believers, so that they are still eternally saved in the end" comes from a particular interpretation of Matthew 24:13 and Matthew 24:22, that salvation there refers to physical salvation.

In The Bible when The Bible states a person or persons believe in Jesus, they are a born again child of God. No believers in The Bible are false believers. In the parable of the soils, the first soil is the only unbeliever the other three soils, are soils illustrating believers and the type of fruit bearing each does.

https://faithalone.org/blog/a-mixed-crowd/

 

[Guojing]

In The Bible when The Bible states a person or persons believe in Jesus, they are a born again child of God. No believers in The Bible are false believers. In the parable of the soils, the first soil is the only unbeliever the other three soils, are soils illustrating believers and the type of fruit bearing each does.

A Mixed Crowd — John 8:33 – Grace Evangelical Society

As I said to you in another thread, John is the easiest gospel, relative to Matthew, Mark and Luke, to form the doctrine of "Belief in Jesus is sufficient to be born again and hence eternally saved".

Once you accept that doctrine as an axiom, you can thus interpret the passages found throughout the 4 gospel accounts, in a manner to fit that axiom.

In the case of the sheep and goat judgement, as I hope readers such as yourself can see, this manner takes the form of many additional assumptions about what other passages really meant, such as:

1. saved only meaning physical salvation,
2. that the sheep and goats are actually 3 different groups of people,
3. with an additional group absent from those 3, because God took their lives.

 

[5thKingdom]

I was listening to this podcast by the Grace Evangelical society If a Man is Saved by Faith Alone, What is Happening in Matthew 25 With the Sheep and the Goats? – Grace Evangelical Society

Now I understand why and how some Christians believe that Matthew 24:13, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.", saved there refers to only physical salvation, as in saved from dying physically during the Tribulation, and not eternal salvation.

To support that belief, they cross reference to Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Read the text carefully... it's for the ELECT'S sake the days are shortened.

As to the theory that Matthew 24:13 refers to physical saving instead of Eternal Salvation...
there is no Biblical reason for preaching that false gospel

Remember, the Lord PROMISED the church would be infiltrated by unsaved "tares"
and the "leaven" of their false doctrines would corrupt the church.

That is why we currently have hundreds or thousands of denominations and churches
preaching false doctrines...

We are to EXPECT the churches to preach false doctrines.
This is just another example of that.


/

 

[Guojing]

Read the text carefully... it's for the ELECT'S sake the days are shortened.

As to the theory that Matthew 24:13 refers to physical saving instead of Eternal Salvation...
there is no Biblical reason for preaching that false gospel

Remember, the Lord PROMISED the church would be infiltrated by unsaved "tares"
and the "leaven" of their false doctrines would corrupt the church.

That is why we currently have hundreds or thousands of denominations and churches
preaching false doctrines...

We are to EXPECT the churches to preach false doctrines.
This is just another example of that.


/

You must understand, for progressive dispensationalists, as well as many other Christians I have fellowship with, they need to understand any passages regarding salvation as compatible with their axiom that "salvation is always by grace thru faith in Jesus, without works, at all times."

 

[5thKingdom]

These sheep and goats are the Israelites scattered among the nations, even in Israel. It is not about the church at all.

Not according to JESUS.
Jesus was very clear the saved "wheat/sheep" are in the churches
and the unsaved "tares/goats" are also in the churches.


Obviously you have never done an exhaustive BIBLE STUDY
into the definition of the "wheat and tares"...
Here is a study for you:


Notice, this is NOT my opinion
I have cited SCRIPTURE to support everything said


Context #3: Outline of the A-Millennial Kingdom


In Matthew 13 the Lord Jesus reveals several different perspectives about the (3rd) New Testament "Kingdom of Heaven".
The Lord reveals [v3-8] the "Kingdom of Heaven" (Christian Kingdom) is like a man sowing seed, and the Christian Gospel
is called [v19] the "Word of the Kingdom". The Lord reveals [v24-30] the "Kingdom of Heaven" (Christian Kingdom) includes
both saved "wheat" (sown by Christ), and unsaved "tares" (sown by Satan). Moreover, these wheat and tares look very similar,
and they are allowed to grow together - until they are separated during the "Final Harvest", which occurs at the "End-of-the-Age".


The Lord reveals [v47-50] the "Kingdom of Heaven" (Christian Kingdom) is like casting a net to gather both good fish ("wheat")
and bad fish ("tares"), which are later separated during the "Final Harvest". And finally, the Lord reveals [v52] that the GOSPEL
of the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" includes the Saints ("wheat") understanding the Harmony of Scripture between mysteries
which were revealed during the (2nd) Old Testament Kingdom (represented as "old treasure") and mysteries now being revealed
during the "testimony" of the Great Commission, during the (3rd) New Testament Kingdom (represented as being "new treasure").


(1) The "Kingdom of Heaven" is an earthly Kingdom

(2) The sower of good seed represents the Lord Jesus Christ

(3) The sower of bad seed represents Satan, the King of Babylon

(4) The "Word of the Kingdom" (the seed) is the Gospel of the New Testament

(5) The "field" represents the world, as the Gospel goes forth to both Jew and Gentile

(6) The "fruit" of the field (both wheat and tares) represents the (3rd) "Kingdom of Heaven"

(7) The "Word of the Kingdom" gathers good fish and bad fish during the (3rd) Christian Kingdom

(8) The (saved) "wheat" and the (unsaved) "tares" LOOK similar, and grow together until the End-of-the-Age

(9) At the End-of-the-Age, the "wheat and tares" (the good fish and bad fish) are separated during a "Harvest"


In Matthew 13 the Lord explains the THIRD "Kingdom of Heaven" (the Christian Kingdom -or- New Testament Church)
is an earthly Kingdom consisting of both (saved) "wheat" and (unsaved) "tares". This Biblical Truth also harmonizes with
the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom containing both saved "wheat" and unsaved "tares" within the "Kingdom" of national Israel and
the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom containing both saved "wheat" (shown as "Wise Virgins" and "Toes/Kings" of IRON),
along with unsaved "tares" (shown as "Foolish Virgins" and "Toes/Kings" of CLAY), in the Fourth "Kingdom of Heaven".


In the Bible, the "Kingdom of Heaven" represents the many unsaved "tares", and/or the few saved "wheat"
associated with the "Word of the Kingdom" (preaching the Gospel) during the FOUR KINGDOMS on earth.
However, the (5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven" contains only the "wheat" from each of those Four Kingdoms.
Again, notice the “Word of the Kingdom” (the Gospel) was unique in each of the “Kingdoms of Heaven” on earth.


/

 

[Lost Witness]

I see, so would you say your definition of "non-dead faith", includes works?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[5thKingdom]

You must understand, for progressive dispensationalists, as well as many other Christians I have fellowship with, they need to understand any passages regarding salvation as compatible with their axiom that "salvation is always by grace thru faith in Jesus, without works, at all times."

No, you need to understand that JESUS PROMISED
the church would be infiltrated by unsaved "tares" (sown by Satan)
and the "leaven" of their false doctrines would corrupt the churches and their gospels.


That is why we have thousands of denominations and churches preaching false gospels.
That is EXPECTED


It does not matter what "other Christians" preach...
the vast majority MUST be preaching false doctrines,
we can see the contradictions very easily.


The measure of Biblical Truth is NOT what others believe
it is finding "harmony of Scripture" with ALL RELATED passages.

/

 

[Guojing]

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So from your view, you would answer my question with a yes?