The Issue of Universalism and Possible Ultimate Release from Hell

Berserk

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Der Alte: "Nonsense! So, you just make up stuff as you go along, doesn't matter what the Bible says?"

It's you who persistently duck "what the Bible says." by refusing to offer your own interpretations of the relevent texts that make the case for universalism in Revelation, Paul, and elsewhere in the NT. Far from "making stuff up," I present insights from major NT scholars (whom you are oblivious) like Dr. Eugene Boring and Dr. Matthias Rissi. But I'm grateful for your consistently irrelevant posts because they greatly help make my case more persuasive to readers. Indeed, after I represent all the most relevant universalist texts, I shall demonstrate the irrelevance of your predictable texts verse by verse.


 
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Der Alte

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Der Alte: "Nonsense! So, you just make up stuff as you go along, doesn't matter what the Bible says?"
It's you who persistently duck "what the Bible says." by refusing to offer your own interpretations of the relevent texts that make the case for universalism in Revelation, Paul, and elsewhere in the NT. Far from "making stuff up," I present insights from major NT scholars (whom you are oblivious) like Dr. Eugene Boring and Dr. Matthias Rissi. But I'm grateful for your consistently irrelevant posts because they greatly help make my case more persuasive to readers. Indeed, after I represent all the most relevant universalist texts, I shall demonstrate the irrelevance of your predictable texts verse by verse.
I see where you are coming from calling the words of Jesus, Himself "consistently irrelevant posts." While yourself posting out-of-context posts from Paul and other NT writers as if their words should take precedence over the words of Jesus.
I have been active at this forum since Reagan or GHW Bush was president. All you late comers should respond to my posts.
 
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Fervent

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Der Alte: "Nonsense! So, you just make up stuff as you go along, doesn't matter what the Bible says?"

It's you who persistently duck "what the Bible says." by refusing to offer your own interpretations of the relevent texts that make the case for universalism in Revelation, Paul, and elsewhere in the NT. Far from "making stuff up," I present insights from major NT scholars (whom you are oblivious) like Dr. Eugene Boring and Dr. Matthias Rissi. But I'm grateful for your consistently irrelevant posts because they greatly help make my case more persuasive to readers. Indeed, after I represent all the most relevant universalist texts, I shall demonstrate the irrelevance of your predictable texts verse by verse.
Have you now abandoned the pretense of "playing devil's advocate"?
 
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Shrewd Manager

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(4) The Philippian hymn is inspired by Isaiah 45:22-23, which begins with an invitation to universal salvation:
"Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the Earth (45:22)."
It then continues with a prophecy of universal compliance: "To me every knee shall bow and every tongue shall swear (45:23)."

Yes, the Philippian hymn (nice!) progresses the Koreshic oath (God gives Cyrus the juice) by revealing that this total victory occurs 'at the name of Jesus'.

The astute will also note that St Paul joins the 'Romanian chorus' (working title only lol) in Romans 14:11.

That's THREE iterations, the first mention being a divine oath. The Trinity have spoken in perfect unity and perspicuity. Holy blood on the tree seals the deal.

What more do they want.
 
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Already refuted! I repeat: that just means the wicked will TEMPORARILY punished.

Is that right? Aren't the wicked TOTALLY DESTROYED...by being converted into new creations in Christ. On the principle reflected in such hits as:
  • lest a grain of wheat fall to the ground and die,
  • die to self live to Christ,
  • look back in contempt at the dead bodies of those who've rebelled
  • handed over to the devil for the destruction of the flesh. and (who could forget:...)
  • what idiot put that new wine back in the old bladder?
 
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David's Harp

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Der Alte

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***I present insights from major NT scholars (whom you are oblivious) like Dr. Eugene Boring and Dr. Matthias Rissi. ***
I'm going to have another go at this post. The "insights" of NT scholars, major or otherwise, are meaningless, unless they are exegeting scripture. Sans scripture their opinions are no more compelling than the poetry on public facility walls.
 
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Berserk

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UNIVERSALISM IN 1 CORINTHIANS 15:22-24:

The standard translation of 1 Cor. 15:22-24 must be challenged. It reads:
"As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at His coming those who belong to Christ. THEN COMES THE END, WHEN HE HADS OVE THE KINGDOM TO GOD THE FATHER."

The capitalized translation must be rejected for 3 reasons:
(1) The verb "comes" is NOT present in the Greek text!
(2) The phrase "But each in his own order" implies a sequence of 3 stages of resurrection.
The phrase would not have been added if the sequence were only "Christ the first fruits, then at His coming those who belong to Christ" because Christ's resurrection is a given and the phrase about sequence would be unnecessary, even absurd.
(3) A 2-item sequence would contradict Revelation, which teaches 3 resurrections--Jesus' resurrection, the resurrection of believers ("the first resurrection" [19:5] after Jesus' resurrection), and then the implied 2nd resurrection.

Here is the correct translation of 1 Cor. 15:22-24 that eliminates these 3 problems:
"For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive. BUT EACH IN HIS OWN ORDER: (a) Christ the first fruits (or "beginning"), (b) then at His coming those who belong to Christ, (c) THEN THE REST (Greek: "telos"--the damned in Hell), when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father."

The Greek "ho telos" can mean "the end in the sense of completion" or "the final step." Thus, in this 3-member series, it means "completion" in the sense of "the rest."

1 Cor. 15:22-25 implies universalism for 5 reasons:
(1) The first "all" is universal; the 2nd "all" parallels the first and is therefore also universal.
This means "ALL shall be made alive," including all in Hell.
(2) Besides Christ, the other 2 resurrected groups are raised "in Christ" and are therefore saved. All Christians are included in the 2nd resurrection phase. That leaves all the damned in Hell to be raised in Christ" (and therefore saved) in the 3rd phase.
(3) Without the 3rd resurrection phase, Paul contradicts Revelation, which teaches 3 phases. The universalist interpretation removes the contradiction in God's Word.
(4) The universalist interpretation adds the 3rd phase that makes sense of the otherwise inexplicable concern not to mix up the correct sequence: "But each in his own order."
(5) The Greek "haparche" (first fruits" also means "beginning" and therefore expects "to telos" as the third in the resurrection series with the complementary meaning "end" in the sense of "completion" or "the rest."
 
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Der Alte

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UNIVERSALISM IN 1 CORINTHIANS 15:22-24:
The standard translation of 1 Cor. 15:22-24 must be challenged. It reads:
"As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at His coming those who belong to Christ. THEN COMES THE END, WHEN HE HADS OVE THE KINGDOM TO GOD THE FATHER."
The capitalized translation must be rejected for 3 reasons:
(1) The verb "comes" is NOT present in the Greek text!
(2) The phrase "But each in his own order" implies a sequence of 3 stages of resurrection.
The phrase would not have been added if the sequence were only "Christ the first fruits, then at His coming those who belong to Christ" because Christ's resurrection is a given and the phrase about sequence would be unnecessary, even absurd.
(3) A 2-item sequence would contradict Revelation, which teaches 3 resurrections--Jesus' resurrection, the resurrection of believers ("the first resurrection" [19:5] after Jesus' resurrection), and then the implied 2nd resurrection.
Here is the correct translation of 1 Cor. 15:22-24 that eliminates these 3 problems:
"For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive. BUT EACH IN HIS OWN ORDER: (a) Christ the first fruits (or "beginning"), (b) then at His coming those who belong to Christ, (c) THEN THE REST (Greek: "telos"--the damned in Hell), when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father."
The Greek "ho telos" can mean "the end in the sense of completion" or "the final step." Thus, in this 3-member series, it means "completion" in the sense of "the rest."
1 Cor. 15:22-25 implies universalism for 5 reasons:
(1) The first "all" is universal; the 2nd "all" parallels the first and is therefore also universal.
This means "ALL shall be made alive," including all in Hell.
(2) Besides Christ, the other 2 resurrected groups are raised "in Christ" and are therefore saved. All Christians are included in the 2nd resurrection phase. That leaves all the damned in Hell to be raised in Christ" (and therefore saved) in the 3rd phase.
(3) Without the 3rd resurrection phase, Paul contradicts Revelation, which teaches 3 phases. The universalist interpretation removes the contradiction in God's Word.
(4) The universalist interpretation adds the 3rd phase that makes sense of the otherwise inexplicable concern not to mix up the correct sequence: "But each in his own order."
(5) The Greek "haparche" (first fruits" also means "beginning" and therefore expects "to telos" as the third in the resurrection series with the complementary meaning "end" in the sense of "completion" or "the rest.
"
Unscriptural, ungrammatical rubbish. Twisting scripture to make it support UR heterodoxy
NIV 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
The New International Version (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2011), 1 Co 15:22–23.
KJV 1 Corinthians 15:22-23
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
NET 1 Corinthians 15:22-23
(22) For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
(23) But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him.
ASV 1 Corinthians 15:22-23
(22) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
(23) But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
 
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Berserk

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Der Alte: "Unscriptural, ungrammatical rubbish. Twisting scripture to make it support UR heterodox UR heterodoxy."

Notice how Der Alter must resort to irrational bluster unreinforced by careful exegesis to compensate for his ignorance of Greek and is therefore unqualified to critique the translation and interpretation of real trained scholars who espouse the case presented in my last post.
 
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Andrewn

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II. SOUL RETRIEVALS FROM HELL IN 1 PETER: "He [Christ] was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, on which also he went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison...(1 Peter 3:18-19)."
It really is straight forward:

Joh 11:25 Jesus then said to her,

“I am the resurrection and the life.
Whoever believes in me,
even though he dies, will live,
26 and everyone who lives
and believes in me
will never die.
Do you believe this?”

According to Cambridge Commentary, ‘He that believeth in Me, even if he shall have died (physically), shall live (eternally). And every one that liveth (physically) and believeth in Me, shall never die (eternally).’

It seems that one can come to believe _after_ physical death. There is no salvation except through the Lord Jesus:

John 14:6. "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
 
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The 2nd resurrection cannot refer to "the Great White Throne" judgement of those who are and are not "written in the Book of Life (21:11-15)" because (a) they are not "raised up" to this judgment and (b) the wicked being judged are then experience the judgment of "the 2nd death" in "the lake of fire." The 2nd resurrection, following the 2nd death, raises up the unsaved who have been thrown into the lake of fire (20:15).
The expression "2nd resurrection" does not occur in the Bible but it is generally assumed to be described in Joh 5:29, 1Co 15:24, and Rev 20:12-13. This resurrection takes place _before_ "the Great White Throne" judgement and the "2nd death" which is described in Rev 20:14-15.
 
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Andrewn

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(a) Pagan salvation is possible apart from formal profession of faith in Christ (Rom. 2:7, 10, 14-15; Acts 17:30).
Pagan salvation is possible. But not apart from formal profession of faith in Christ. You, yourself, described Jesus' preaching in Hades.
 
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"Andrewn : "The expression "2nd resurrection" does not occur in the Bible but it is generally assumed to be described in Joh 5:29, 1Co 15:24, and Rev 20:12-13. This resurrection takes place _before_ "the Great White Throne" judgement and the "2nd death" which is described in Rev 20:14-15."
First, there is not a shred of evidence that anyone is "resurrected" to the Great White Throne Judgment.
No mention is made of souls being "raised" or "lifted up" for this Judgment.
2nd, your sequence defies the natural and logical parallelism of the sequence: first death, "first resurrection" (of believers), "2nd death" (of the damned in "the lake of fire"), 2nd resurrection (of the damned in"the lake of fire").
3rd, your interpretation is refuted by the universal worship of God and Christ in Heaven (5:13) and by the implied purpose of the eternally "open gates" "outside" the lake of fire containing the damned.

Andrewn: "Pagan salvation is possible. But not apart from formal profession of faith in Christ. You, yourself, described Jesus' preaching in Hades."

I was of course referrin to the possibility of pagan salvation apart for formal profession of faith during Earth life. I believe these pagans do formally profess their faith in Christ in the afterlife.
 
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It seems that one can come to believe _after_ physical death.

And how do you reach that conclusion on the authorities cited, sir? Jesus has the keys to death and hades, he can and does raise the dead, restores them to life again, and God makes them all anew, so that every knee will bow, and all things will be subdued to Christ. Is this not all plainly written?
 
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Andrewn

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And how do you reach that conclusion on the authorities cited, sir? Jesus has the keys to death and hades, he can and does raise the dead, restores them to life again, and God makes them all anew, so that every knee will bow, and all things will be subdued to Christ. Is this not all plainly written?
Is your reply different from what I said? My analysis of Joh 11:25-26 was supportive of your view and I expected that you would agree with my message.
 
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Andrewn

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First, there is not a shred of evidence that anyone is "resurrected" to the Great White Throne Judgment.
No mention is made of souls being "raised" or "lifted up" for this Judgment.
Rev 11:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done.

Death and Hades gave up the dead. What did they give up? They gave up what was in them. Isn't it reasonable to assume that the verse talks about the resurrection of the body? Also, note that the body is also subject to judgment:

Mat 10:28 “Have no fear of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, fear the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Joh 5:29 and will come forth from their graves.
Those who have done good deeds
will rise to life,
while those who have done evil
will rise to judgment.

2nd, your sequence defies the natural and logical parallelism of the sequence: first death, "first resurrection" (of believers), "2nd death" (of the damned in "the lake of fire"), 2nd resurrection (of the damned in"the lake of fire").
I grant you that. But it is not real evidence.

3rd, your interpretation is refuted by the universal worship of God and Christ in Heaven (5:13) and by the implied purpose of the eternally "open gates" "outside" the lake of fire containing the damned.
There is conflicting data about what happens after the Judgment in Rev 21 and 22. For example:

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, the murderers, the sexually immoral, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

You assume a 2nd, unmentioned resurrection after that verse and universal reconciliation. Your evidence is the ultimate universal worship of creation. This is fair enough. But the matter is far from settled. The NT does not care to give us details, only hints.
 
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