The Issue of Universalism and Possible Ultimate Release from Hell

[Berserk]

Der Alte: "And why were none of the wicked saved?"
1 Peter 4:6 4:6 picks up 3:19 and makes it clear that preaching to the dead in Hades is for the purpose of getting them saved.

Der Alte: "If Jesus was preaching to the evil dead, why was Noah and his family there? What was Jesus' purpose preaching to the evil dead, none of them were saved only Noah and his family."

Duh, Peter never locates "Noah and his family there." Reread 1 Peter 3:19-20.
As for Jesus' purpose: "And I, when I am lifted up, will draw ALL people to myself (John 12:32)."
"I have come not to call the righteous, but sinners (Mark 2:17)."

 

[Der Alte]

1 Peter 4:6 4:6 picks up 3:19 and makes it clear that preaching to the dead in Hades is for the purpose of getting them saved.
Der Alte: "If Jesus was preaching to the evil dead, why was Noah and his family there? What was Jesus' purpose preaching to the evil dead, none of them were saved only Noah and his family."
Duh, Peter never locates "Noah and his family there." Reread 1 Peter 3:19-20.
As for Jesus' purpose: "And I, when I am lifted up, will draw ALL people to myself (John 12:32)."
"I have come not to call the righteous, but sinners (Mark 2:17)."

1 Peter 3:18-20
(18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which [spirits vs. 19] sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

You want me to believe that Noah was mentioned in the same sentence as the spirits but he was somewhere else?
Peter was writing to Christians in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, v .1. Would they have thought that Noah was somewhere else?

1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. ​

How do dead people live according to God in the spirit? When and where does this happen?
Re: "And I, when I am lifted up, will draw ALL people to myself (John 12:32)."
That same Jesus also said this.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Jesus did NOT say everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven. He said, "Not every one ... shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." Then He said that MANY, not a few, would call Him Lord, Lord and brag about all the "wonderful things " they did but He will say to them, the many, "Depart from me you that work iniquity." When Jesus says "never" He means "never" not someday by and by. Thus John 12:32 does NOT mean that Jesus will drag sinners to Himself.

 

[Berserk]

Der Alte: "You want me to believe that Noah was mentioned in the same sentence as the spirits but he was somewhere else?"
Of course, because 1 Peter 3:19-20 distinguishes Noah and his family who, being obedient, "were saved" from "the spirits in prison (Hades)...who did not obey...in the days of Noah."

Der Alte: "Peter was writing to Christians in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, v .1. Would they have thought that Noah was somewhere else?"

Of course, because Peter clearly implies that and no modern book Commentary on 1 Peter agrees with you that Noah was "in prison" with the other human spirits.

​

Der Alte: How do dead people live according to God in the spirit? When and where does this happen?
When the righteous dead lose their physical body they live on as "spirits" in Paradise (Luke 23:43)." In the case of "the spirits in prison" who respond to the preaching of the Gospel (1 Peter 4:6, picking up 3:19), they enter the heavenly Jerusalem the eternally open gates (Rev. 21:25) from their spiritual prison "outside" (22:15: cp. 20:8). Revisit my detailed discussion of how this works in "The Case for Universalism in Revelation" earlier in this thread.

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alte: "You want me to believe that Noah was mentioned in the same sentence as the spirits but he was somewhere else?"
Of course, because 1 Peter 3:19-20 distinguishes Noah and his family who, being obedient, "were saved" from "the spirits in prison (Hades)...who did not obey...in the days of Noah."

The passage does not say Noah and his family were saved from "the spirits in prison." How could that be since they were not there with the spirits? What about all the other spirits? If Jesus was preaching for their salvation, why were none of them saved?

Der Alte: "Peter was writing to Christians in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, v .1. Would they have thought that Noah was somewhere else?"

Berserk: Of course, because Peter clearly implies that and no modern book Commentary on 1 Peter agrees with you that Noah was "in prison" with the other human spirits.

No Peter does NOT clearly imply any such thing. Scholars are all over the landscape on this passage in Peter.

Der Alte: How do dead people live according to God in the spirit? When and where does this happen?

Berserk: When the righteous dead lose their physical body they live on as "spirits" in Paradise (Luke 23:43)." In the case of "the spirits in prison" who respond to the preaching of the Gospel (1 Peter 4:6, picking up 3:19), they enter the heavenly Jerusalem the eternally open gates (Rev. 21:25) from their spiritual prison "outside" (22:15: cp. 20:8). Revisit my detailed discussion of how this works in "The Case for Universalism in Revelation" earlier in this thread.

This is all nice and good but it is NOT stated in scripture anywhere. Just your imagination. I'm not linking to anything outside this post. If you can't explain it here forget about it.

 

[Berserk]

Der Alte: "The passage does not say Noah and his family were saved from "the spirits in prison." "

No, Peter implies that Noah and his family "were saved" from the Flood because, unlike "the spirits in prison," they were obedient and entered the ark.

Der Alte: "No Peter does NOT clearly imply any such thing. Scholars are all over the landscape on this passage in Peter."

Here I can confidently call you bluff and declare that you can find no scholar who believes that Noah was present in "prison" with the other "spirits!"

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alte: "The passage does not say Noah and his family were saved from "the spirits in prison." "
No, Peter implies that Noah and his family "were saved" from the Flood because, unlike "the spirits in prison," they were obedient and entered the ark.
Der Alte: "No Peter does NOT clearly imply any such thing. Scholars are all over the landscape on this passage in Peter."
Here I can confidently call you bluff and declare that you can find no scholar who believes that Noah was present in "prison" with the other "spirits!"

Matthew Henry
He went and preached, by his Spirit striving with them, and inspiring and enabling Enoch and Noah to plead with them, and preach righteousness to them, as 2Pe_2:5. (2.) The hearers. Because they were dead and disembodied when the apostle speaks of them, therefore he properly calls them spirits now in prison; not that they were in prison when Christ preached to them, as the vulgar Latin translation and the popish expositors pretend. (3.) The sin of these people: They were disobedient, that is, rebellious, unpersuadable, and unbelieving, as the word signifies; this their sin is aggravated from the patience and long-suffering of God (which once waited upon them for 120 years together), while Noah was preparing the ark, and by that, as well as by his preaching, giving them fair warning of what was coming upon them. (4.) The event of all: Their bodies were drowned, and their spirits cast into hell, which is called a prison (Mat_5:25; 2Pe_2:4, 2Pe_2:5); but Noah and his family, who believed and were obedient, were saved in the ark.​

 

[Berserk]

DER ALTE'S QUOTATIONS FROM MATTHEW HENRY: Henry: "Their bodies were drowned, and their spirits cast into hell, which is called a prison (Mat_5:25; 2Pe_2:4, 2Pe_2:5); " Here Henry supports me against you bv admitting that "hell" is biblically identified as a "prison." Nor do you agree with Henry that Matt. 5:25-26 assumes that the "prison" is "hell," because sinners only remain there "until they have paid the last penny." That understanding of 5:25-26 supports universalism. Henry: "(2.) The hearers. Because they were dead and disembodied when the apostle speaks of them, therefore he properly calls them spirits now in prison; not that they were in prison when Christ preached to them,"

Absurd because Peter makes it clear that Christ preached to "the spirits in prison" after His crucifixion when He "was made alive in the spirit (3:18)." That means that Christ only preached to them when they were in Hell (prison).
So Henry is wrong when he claims:

"He [Christ]] went and preached, by his Spirit striving with them, and inspiring and enabling Enoch and Noah to plead with them, and preach righteousness to them, as 2Pe_2:5."

Henry is claiming that Christ preached through Enoch and Noah during their earthly lives. Peter makes that claim in neither 1 or 2 Peter.

So Henry denies your claim that is the center of our dispute--that Noah was in "prison" with the evil dead who drowned in his day. Even Henry concedes that these drowned evil dead are now in a "prison" called "Hell."​

 

[Berserk]

III. UNIVERSALISM IN PAUL

To help readers sharpen their critical knives, this section begins with an outline of the 4 main arguments for Paul's universalism which will then be discussed in detail. Remember, I'm not trying to make you all universalists; I'm just trying to familiarize you with the best arguments for it from Scripture.

(1) Paul has 3 beliefs that are compatible with universal salvation without explicitly teaching it:
(a) Pagan salvation is possible apart from formal profession of faith in Christ (Rom. 2:7, 10, 14-15; Acts 17:30).
(b) God is the Savior of all, though He is more immediately the Savior only of believers (1 Tim. 4:10); for God has brought salvation to everyone (Titus 2:11) and wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4).
(c) All Israel will ultimately be saved (Rom. 11:25-26).

(2) Paul's expectation that all Israel will be saved appears in the same chapter that then teaches that human disobedience is an unavoidable part of God's plan to show grace-based mercy on everyone at the final consummation (Rom. 11:32, 36).

(3) Paul envisages everyone in Hell ultimately being saved through confession of Christ as Lord (Phil. 2:9-11, which is based on Isaiah 45:22-23).

(4) Like John the Seer's eschatology, Paul's eschatology envisages a second resurrection of people that completes or fulfills universal salvation (1 Cor. 15:22-24).

 

[Der Alte]

III. UNIVERSALISM IN PAUL
To help readers sharpen their critical knives, this section begins with an outline of the 4 main arguments for Paul's universalism which will then be discussed in detail. Remember, I'm not trying to make you all universalists; I'm just trying to familiarize you with the best arguments for it from Scripture.
(1) Paul has 3 beliefs that are compatible with universal salvation without explicitly teaching it:
(a) Pagan salvation is possible apart from formal profession of faith in Christ (Rom. 2:7, 10; Acts 17:30).
(b) God is the Savior of all, though He is more immediately the Savior only of believers (1 Tim. 4:10); for God has brought salvation to everyone (Titus 2:11) and wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4).
(c) All Israel will ultimately be saved (Rom. 11:25-26).
(2) Paul's expectation that all Israel will be saved appears in the same chapter that then teaches that human disobedience is an unavoidable part of God's plan to show grace-based mercy on everyone at the final consummation (Rom. 11:32, 36).
(3) Paul envisages everyone in Hell ultimately being saved through confession of Christ as Lord (Phil. 2:9-11, which is based on Isaiah 45:22-23).
(4) Like John the Seer's eschatology, Paul's eschatology envisages a second resurrection of people that completes or fulfills universal salvation (1 Cor. 15:22-24).

You cite a few verses of Scripture but fail to actually quote them. I do not have the time or inclination for searching for each passage to find out what they actually say.
Here is what Paul actually says about UR.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: [no wrongdoer] neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that [no wrongdoer] no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

Twenty two categories of unrighteous people who have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.1. adulterers, 2. covetous, 3. drunkenness, 4. effeminate, 5. emulations, 6. envious, 7. extortion 8. fornication, 9. hatred, 10. heresies, 11. homosexuals, 12. idolators, 13. lasciviousness, 14. murder, 15. reveling, 16. revilers 17. sedition, 18. strife, 19. thieves, 20. uncleanness 21. witchcraft. 22. Wrath
VSS:1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:5, 1 Corinthians 3:17

 

[Berserk]

(1a) Pagan salvation is possible apart from formal profession of faith in Christ (Rom. 2:7, 10, 14-15; Acts 17:30).
For pagans "sin is not imputed where there is no law (Rom. 5:13)." So "God has overlooked the times of human ignorance (Acts 17:30)," though now they are expected to repent when they hear the Gospel. Prior pagan ignorance allows good pagans to be saved at the Last Judgment:

"When Gentiles, who do not possess the Law, do instinctively what the Law requires, these...are a Law to themselves. They show that what the Law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts will accuse OR PERHAPS EXCUSE THEM ON THE DAY WHEN GOD, THROUGH JESUS CHRIST WILL JUDGE THE SECRET THINGS OF ALL (Rom. 2:14-15)."
What applies to pre-Christian pagans surely also applies for pagans who have near heard the Gospel: they can receive grace amd be saved simply by "doing good" and "seeking" the following things, despite the fact that we can ordinarily not be saved by works:

"To those who by patiently do good seek for glory and honor and immortality He will give eternal life (2:7)."

 

[Der Alte]

(1a) Pagan salvation is possible apart from formal profession of faith in Christ (Rom. 2:7, 10, 14-15; Acts 17:30).
For pagans "sin is not imputed where there is no law (Rom. 5:13)." So "God has overlooked the times of human ignorance (Acts 17:30)," though now they are expected to repent when they hear the Gospel. Prior pagan ignorance allows good pagans to be saved at the Last Judgment:
"When Gentiles, who do not possess the Law, do instinctively what the Law requires, these...are a Law to themselves. They show that what the Law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts will accuse OR PERHAPS EXCUSE THEM ON THE DAY WHEN GOD, THROUGH JESUS CHRIST WILL JUDGE THE SECRET THINGS OF ALL (Rom. 2:14-15)."
What applies to pre-Christian pagans surely also applies for pagans who have near heard the Gospel: they can receive grace amd be saved simply by "doing good" and "seeking" the following things, despite the fact that we can ordinarily not be saved by works:
"To those who by patiently do good seek for glory and honor and immortality He will give eternal life (2:7)."

But we must be aware this passage does not include robbers, thieves, murderers etc. this passage refers to those who "do instinctively what the Law requires, these...are a Law to themselves. They show that what the Law requires is written on their hearts."
I think I can safely say virtually every society in the world has laws against murder, robbery, theft etc.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

One standard anti-universalist argument can be summarily dismissed--the argument that universalism trivializes the urgency of embracing the Gospel. Does the prospect of spending long periods of Hell time in unimaginable conscious torment trivialize the Gospel? Please!

Are the ones sent to hell extra bad sinners?
They can be no worse that the 6-fingered giants before God had them exterminated. If these 2/3 are destined to die by the 7 vials and remain awake in hell for 1,000 years. Hell is a locked cage in a place called 'the Pit'. That is where all the 'sons of God' from Ge:6 are, except Satan, he shows up during the pouring out of those same vials. They are the ones sent to the fiery lake, the men in hell are released when the cage is unlocked at the Great White Throne judgment.
You cannot be a sinner and appear alive at that place.
Zec:13:8-9:
And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land,
saith the LORD,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein.
And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name,
and I will hear them:
I will say,
It is my people:
and they shall say,
The LORD is my God.
Re:19:21:
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse,
which sword proceeded out of his mouth:
and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Isa:65:12-15:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold,
my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
Behold,
my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:
Heb:12:6-8:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth,
and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening,
God dealeth with you as with sons;
for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement,
whereof all are partakers,
then are ye bastards,
and not sons.
Heb:12:22-25:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.
For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth,
much more shall not we escape,
if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Re:7:9-17:
After this I beheld,
and,
lo,
a great multitude,
which no man could number,
of all nations,
and kindreds,
and people,
and tongues,
stood before the throne,
and before the Lamb,
clothed with white robes,
and palms in their hands;
And cried with a loud voice,
saying,
Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne,
and unto the Lamb.
And all the angels stood round about the throne,
and about the elders and the four beasts,
and fell before the throne on their faces,
and worshipped God,
Saying,
Amen:
Blessing,
and glory,
and wisdom,
and thanksgiving,
and honour,
and power,
and might,
be unto our God for ever and ever.
Amen.
And one of the elders answered,
saying unto me,
What are these which are arrayed in white robes?
and whence came they?
And I said unto him,
Sir,
thou knowest.
And he said to me,
These are they which came out of great tribulation,
and have washed their robes,
and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Therefore are they before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night in his temple:
and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
They shall hunger no more,
neither thirst any more;
neither shall the sun light on them,
nor any heat.
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them,
and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters:
and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Isa:65:16-19:
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth;
and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth;
because the former troubles are forgotten,
and because they are hid from mine eyes.
For,
behold,
I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

 

[Berserk]

Paul's pastoral epistles make 3 points that are very consistent with universalism:

(1) Christ died to save everyone, not just the elect:
"Christ Jesus...gave Himself a ransom of ALL (1 Tim. 2:7)."

(2) Indeed, God brought salvation--not just the message of salvation--to everyone:
"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to ALL (Titus 2:11)."
"We have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people, especially of those who believe (1 Tim. 4:10)."

(3) The fact that God brings salvation to everyone means that He wants everyone to be ultimately saved:
"God our Savior...desires EVERYONE to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:3)."
How can an omnipotent God's will to save everyone be thwarted?
Cannot an omnipotent God create an incentive even in Hell for the damned to recognize that eternal bliss with God is a preferable option to relentless torment?

God's essence is Love; so God never stops loving anyone. What, then does it mean for God to love sinners in Hell?
Surely even denizens of Hell always have the chance to respond to God's love, repent, and be retrieved from Hell. Hence, C. S. Lewis's famous statement, "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside."

My next 3 planned posts will present the best and most explicit Pauline texts for universalism.

 

[Der Alte]

***
My next 3 planned posts will present the best and most explicit Pauline texts for universalism.

When you concentrate on all the Pauline vss. you think support UR make sure you review the Pauline vss, which refute UR. See my post #49, above.
Link: The Issue of Universalism and Possible Ultimate Release from Hell

Twenty two [22] categories of unrighteous people who have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.1. adulterers, 2. covetous, 3. drunkenness, 4. effeminate, 5. emulations, 6. envious, 7. extortion 8. fornication, 9. hatred, 10. heresies, 11. homosexuals, 12. idolators, 13. lasciviousness, 14. murder, 15. reveling, 16. revilers 17. sedition, 18. strife, 19. thieves, 20. uncleanness 21. witchcraft. 22. Wrath
VSS:1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:5, 1 Corinthians 3:17

​

 

[Berserk]

Paul predicts a time when "all (not some) Israel will be saved" when the "hardening" that currently prevents most Jews from converting is somehow removed:

"A hardening has come upon a part of Israel until the full number of the Gentiles come in. AND SO, ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED (Rom. 11:25-26)."

The meaning and timeline for the conversion of "the full number of Gentiles" is unclear. What is relevant for my purpose is Paul's claim of a future total conversion of Israel.

This promise nicely sets up Paul's more breath-taking vision of universal salvation a few verses later:
God has IMPRISONED ALL in disobedient, so that He might have mercy on ALL (11:32)."

This astounding claim implies universal salvation for 4 reasons:
(1) The 2 "alls" are parallel and both universal.
(2) God "imprisons" humanity in disobedience and thus takes responsibility for a divine plan that gives us a disobedient nature that is guaranteed to trap us in sin.
(3) This plan seems morally monstrous until one recognizes its divine purpose--to be merciful to all on the basis of divine grace. God takes responsibility both for trapping us in disobedience and removing the trap through His grace by being merciful to everyone.
(4) My critics might speculate that, although our freedom to prevent God's plan is not under consideration here, rebellious souls might still thwart God's plan. That possibility is ruled out 4 verses later by Paul's declaration that a cosmic reconciliation will ultimately restore all created beings to God:

"For from Him and through and BACH TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS (11:36)."

In other words, God will have mercy on all when "back to Him are all things."

 

[Der Alte]

Paul predicts a time when "all (not some) Israel will be saved" when the "hardening" that currently prevents most Jews from converting is somehow removed:
"A hardening has come upon a part of Israel until the full number of the Gentiles come in. AND SO, ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED (Rom. 11:25-26)."
The meaning and timeline for the conversion of "the full number of Gentiles" is unclear. What is relevant for my purpose is Paul's claim of a future total conversion of Israel.
This promise nicely sets up Paul's more breath-taking vision of universal salvation a few verses later:
God has IMPRISONED ALL in disobedient, so that He might have mercy on ALL (11:32)."
This astounding claim implies universal salvation for 4 reasons:
(1) The 2 "alls" are parallel and both universal.
(2) God "imprisons" humanity in disobedience and thus takes responsibility for a divine plan that gives us a disobedient nature that is guaranteed to trap us in sin.
(3) This plan seems morally monstrous until one recognizes its divine purpose--to be merciful to all on the basis of divine grace. God takes responsibility both for trapping us in disobedience and removing the trap through His grace by being merciful to everyone.
(4) My critics might speculate that, although our freedom to prevent God's plan is not under consideration here, rebellious souls might still thwart God's plan. That possibility is ruled out 4 verses later by Paul's declaration that a cosmic reconciliation will ultimately restore all created beings to God:
"For from Him and through and BACH TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS (11:36)."
In other words, God will have mercy on all when "back to Him are all things."

Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context, as you continue to do.
See my post #49, earlier in this thread.
Link: Christian Forums

Paul, himself lists twenty two [22] categories of unrighteous people who have NO inheritance in the kingdom of God.1. adulterers, 2. covetous, 3. drunkenness, 4. effeminate, 5. emulations, 6. envious, 7. extortion 8. fornication, 9. hatred, 10. heresies, 11. homosexuals, 12. idolators, 13. lasciviousness, 14. murder, 15. reveling, 16. revilers 17. sedition, 18. strife, 19. thieves, 20. uncleanness 21. witchcraft. 22. Wrath
VSS:1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:5, 1 Corinthians 3:17

 

[Berserk]

Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context, as you continue to do.
See my post #49, earlier in this thread.

And you continually flee to other irrelevant texts to avoid the hard work of explaining the universalist texts presented to you. When I have discussed all the relevant universalist texts, I will systematically explain why the texts you cite are irrelevant to these universalist texts.

 

[Der Alte]

And you continually flee to other irrelevant texts to avoid the hard work of explaining the universalist texts presented to you. When I have discussed all the relevant universalist texts, I will systematically explain why the texts you cite are irrelevant to these universalist texts.

I am not fleeing to anything. ALL, as in 100%, of the presumed universalist vss. are refuted by the vss. I quote which are spoken by Jesus, Himself. I am well aware that some NT writers seem to support UR.
But when Jesus, Himself, says e.g. "Not everyone who says Lord, Lord to me, will enter the kingdom of heaven." Nothing any other NT writer has written can invalidate that.
Jesus also said that many, not a few, will brag about all the wonderful things they claim they have done but He will say, "Depart from me you that work iniquity, I NEVER knew you." When Jesus says never He means never. Nothing that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter etc. said can supersede that.

 

[Der Alte]

Paul predicts a time when "all (not some) Israel will be saved" when the "hardening" that currently prevents most Jews from converting is somehow removed:
"A hardening has come upon a part of Israel until the full number of the Gentiles come in. AND SO, ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED (Rom. 11:25-26)."
The meaning and timeline for the conversion of "the full number of Gentiles" is unclear. What is relevant for my purpose is Paul's claim of a future total conversion of Israel.
This promise nicely sets up Paul's more breath-taking vision of universal salvation a few verses later:
God has IMPRISONED ALL in disobedient, so that He might have mercy on ALL (11:32)."
This astounding claim implies universal salvation for 4 reasons:
(1) The 2 "alls" are parallel and both universal.
(2) God "imprisons" humanity in disobedience and thus takes responsibility for a divine plan that gives us a disobedient nature that is guaranteed to trap us in sin.
(3) This plan seems morally monstrous until one recognizes its divine purpose--to be merciful to all on the basis of divine grace. God takes responsibility both for trapping us in disobedience and removing the trap through His grace by being merciful to everyone.
(4) My critics might speculate that, although our freedom to prevent God's plan is not under consideration here, rebellious souls might still thwart God's plan. That possibility is ruled out 4 verses later by Paul's declaration that a cosmic reconciliation will ultimately restore all created beings to God:
"For from Him and through and BACH TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS (11:36)."
In other words, God will have mercy on all when "back to Him are all things."

"God has IMPRISONED ALL in disobedient, so that He might have mercy on ALL (11:32)."
In this vs. the Greek word ἐλεήσῃ/elee'se. which is translated "might have mercy" is in the "aorist active subjunctive" mood which is the mood of possibility and potentiality. If Paul had intended for this to be a done deal he would have used the present active indicative as he did in Rom 9:18.
Paul added a condition for the salvation of the Jews.

Romans 11:22-23
(22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
(23) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.​

Paul in three places listed groups who would have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.​

Also, Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:5,

 

[FineLinen]

Paul predicts a time when "all (not some) Israel will be saved" when the "hardening" that currently prevents most Jews from converting is somehow removed:

"A hardening has come upon a part of Israel until the full number of the Gentiles come in. AND SO, ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED (Rom. 11:25-26)."

The meaning and timeline for the conversion of "the full number of Gentiles" is unclear. What is relevant for my purpose is Paul's claim of a future total conversion of Israel.

This promise nicely sets up Paul's more breath-taking vision of universal salvation a few verses later:
God has IMPRISONED ALL in disobedient, so that He might have mercy on ALL (11:32)."

This astounding claim implies universal salvation for 4 reasons:
(1) The 2 "alls" are parallel and both universal.
(2) God "imprisons" humanity in disobedience and thus takes responsibility for a divine plan that gives us a disobedient nature that is guaranteed to trap us in sin.
(3) This plan seems morally monstrous until one recognizes its divine purpose--to be merciful to all on the basis of divine grace. God takes responsibility both for trapping us in disobedience and removing the trap through His grace by being merciful to everyone.
(4) My critics might speculate that, although our freedom to prevent God's plan is not under consideration here, rebellious souls might still thwart God's plan. That possibility is ruled out 4 verses later by Paul's declaration that a cosmic reconciliation will ultimately restore all created beings to God:

"For from Him and through and BACH TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS (11:36)."

In other words, God will have mercy on all when "back to Him are all things."

The word in Romans 11:36 clearly defines the scope of Yah's recovery program for the entire universe!

“For of him and through him, and to him are all things.”

koine = ta panta = the whole enchilada.

Source, Guide, Goal of the ALL