The Issue of Universalism and Possible Ultimate Release from Hell

[ARBITER01]

Where does scripture say there are two wills of God ? No you will not find a scripture that says “ the lake of fire is for refinement “ but if you look at all of scripture as a whole you find the idea. When you understand the nature and character of Yahweh you will see it’s the only way a loving God can be if he truly does love his creation. Torching people for eternity is not love . Correction unto repentance is love.

You're not answering my question.

I would like to see some sort of scripture quote teaching that it is a refining fire. I'm not interested in platitudes and pontifications, just what scripture teaches on this,..... since you made the statement.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

You're not answering my question.

I would like to see some sort of scripture quote teaching that it is a refining fire. I'm not interested in platitudes and pontifications, just what scripture teaches on this,..... since you made the statement.

And you are not answering mine , show me the scripture that there are two wills of God or do you believe the scripture that says “it’s Gods will that none should parish “ .

 

[BNR32FAN]

Exactly, but all those who have not put their faith and trust in Jesus will go in the lake of fire and the refinement of the fire will remove all the dross that has kept each from following Jesus and his undeniable love they will see for the first time and anyone who has truly seen and experienced that love knows that you can’t resist forever. Those who say you can resist have never seen or tasted the Love of Yahweh they only know religion or tradition,

You should probably read the story of Lazarus and the rich man again. Abraham told the rich man it is not permitted for him to cross over.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You're not answering my question.

I would like to see some sort of scripture quote teaching that it is a refining fire. I'm not interested in platitudes and pontifications, just what scripture teaches on this,..... since you made the statement.

That’s kind of a tall order since no scriptures refer to hell as a place of refinement. It’s a place of destruction and death.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And you are not answering mine , show me the scripture that there are two wills of God or do you believe the scripture that says “it’s Gods will that none should parish “ .

The word “will” also means “desire”. Unfortunately because of free will God doesn’t always get what He wants from man. Man has always been a constant disappointment to Him despite His constant commandments for man to repent.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Where does scripture say there are two wills of God ? No you will not find a scripture that says “ the lake of fire is for refinement “ but if you look at all of scripture as a whole you find the idea. When you understand the nature and character of Yahweh you will see it’s the only way a loving God can be if he truly does love his creation. Torching people for eternity is not love . Correction unto repentance is love.

No this is merely based on human sentiment not scripture. What your saying is contradictory to what was actually written. You can surely bet everything you have that God will do exactly what He said He would do.

 

[ARBITER01]

And you are not answering mine , show me the scripture that there are two wills of God or do you believe the scripture that says “it’s Gods will that none should parish “ .

No, no, no,..... you made the statement to everyone as if this was a fact,.... well show us where scripture teaches that the lake of fire is a refining fire. If it is a truth associated with scripture,.... then we should see various passages that point this out.

 

[ARBITER01]

That’s kind of a tall order since no scriptures refer to hell as a place of refinement. It’s a place of destruction and death.

Oh I know, but he made the statement, so he needs to back it up.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

No this is merely based on human sentiment not scripture. What your saying is contradictory to what was actually written. You can surely bet everything you have that God will do exactly what He said He would do.

Do you really believe that Yahweh will do everything he said he will do? Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience that he might have mercy on all - 1Tim 2:3-6 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior, who will have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth- 1John 2:2 Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and not only ours but also for the whole world- 1 Tim 4:9-11 because we trust in the living God , who is the savior of all men , especially of those who believe- Phil 2:10-11 Every knee shall bow of those in heaven, and those on earth, and those under the earth- Col 1:19-22 God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in him and through him to reconcile to himself all things on earth or in heaven by Jesus- Acts 3;21 In Jesus Christ is the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began - these are just a few of a long list of what God has said He would do and I believe it all the question is do you or are you going to try to explain it all away and say they are taken out of context because they don’t fit the tradition.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

The word “will” also means “desire”. Unfortunately because of free will God doesn’t always get what He wants from man. Man has always been a constant disappointment to Him despite His constant commandments for man to repent.

Isaiah 46:10 all of my council, it shall be confirmed and all my desire shall I do - Psalm 115:3 our God is in the heavens, all that he desires, he will do . Now show me the verses that say that God doesn’t get what he desires and what is more powerful than God that would keep him from getting what he desires. Also if man has been a constant disappointment to God why did God create people in the first place because did he not know what was going to happen before he created the world ? God could only be disappointed if he didn’t know what was going to happen in the first place. We need to be careful not to make God into man’s image.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If you research the Greek word used for punishment ( I am still learning this myself) you will see that it’s for correction, one thing I read said it’s a agricultural word used for pruning trees so they will produce more fruit . If that is true how is torment forever going to bring about correction? If it’s not to correction and eventually to repentance and they are dead in sin forever how would 1Cor 15 ever be fulfilled when scripture says death is the last thing to be conquered and then God will be all in all. If he’ll is forever then death is forever and scripture would not be able to be fulfilled.

1 Cor 15 is a reference to Revelation 20. Death is not the only one thrown into the lake of fire. Hades is thrown into the lake of fire along with death. Hades refers to the wicked who were suffering in the place of torment in Sheol. When death and the wicked are destroyed in the lake of fire the only people who remain are those who were written in the book of life. Then everyone will be all in all in God because everyone else has been destroyed in the lake of fire. Let me ask you this, do you think that the people in Hades are still unrepentant unbelievers?

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

How about this question … if EVERYONE will be “purified” in ‘hell’ (insert your term of choice), then why did Jesus need to come and die?

I've suffered with this question.

It never made sense to me.

Whats a sacrifice got to do with the price of oil? How can that satisfy ? How can it be payment for anything? Why would an innocent substitute do? Isn't it a bit of a wrath loophole etc etc??!!

In the end - i settled on this:
Paul / NT Author's trying to persuade people about Christ - were not ready to give up the sacrifice system yet. So they said "you need a sacrifice?? there it is, jesus!"

Nowadays - sacrifice (to me anyway) doesn't make any sense.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you really believe that Yahweh will do everything he said he will do? Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience that he might have mercy on all - 1Tim 2:3-6 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior, who will have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth- 1John 2:2 Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and not only ours but also for the whole world- 1 Tim 4:9-11 because we trust in the living God , who is the savior of all men , especially of those who believe- Phil 2:10-11 Every knee shall bow of those in heaven, and those on earth, and those under the earth- Col 1:19-22 God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in him and through him to reconcile to himself all things on earth or in heaven by Jesus- Acts 3;21 In Jesus Christ is the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began - these are just a few of a long list of what God has said He would do and I believe it all the question is do you or are you going to try to explain it all away and say they are taken out of context because they don’t fit the tradition.

Who is “them” in Romans 11:32? Does it refers to everyone or does it refer to a particular group?

Your translation of 1 Timothy 2:3-4 is inaccurate because it contradicts other verses. The correct translation is God desires all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge of truth.

Yes Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world, that doesn’t mean that all will be saved, it simply means that He will pardon whoever He chooses to. If Jesus bought every seat in a movie theater that doesn’t mean He is obligated to give everyone a ticket, He has the right to give a ticket to whoever He chooses and He also has the right to deny anyone He chooses.

Again your misquoting Acts 3:21

“Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3‬:‭19‬-‭21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Repentance is absolutely necessary to receive Christ’s atonement and “the restitution of all things” is a very ambitious statement to base a doctrine on. Your interpretation of this verse ignores the context and contradicts other passages.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Who is “them” in Romans 11:32? Does it refers to everyone or does it refer to a particular group?

Your translation of 1 Timothy 2:3-4 is inaccurate because it contradicts other verses. The correct translation is God desires all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge of truth.

Yes Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world, that doesn’t mean that all will be saved, it simply means that He will pardon whoever He chooses to. If Jesus bought every seat in a movie theater that doesn’t mean He is obligated to give everyone a ticket, He has the right to give a ticket to whoever He chooses and He also has the right to deny anyone He chooses.

Again your misquoting Acts 3:21

“Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3‬:‭19‬-‭21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Repentance is absolutely necessary to receive Christ’s atonement and “the restitution of all things” is a very ambitious statement to base a doctrine on. Your interpretation of this verse ignores the context and contradicts other passages.

Yes repentance is absolutely necessary, but show me the scripture that says you can only repent while your mortal body is alive. You will probably quote Heb 9:27 but only if you assume that the judgement is a judgement of heaven or hell and that hell is a eternal torture chamber. I believe in the tradition that what we call he’ll is a place of correction and refinement until repentance. And That is because in Matt 25:46 the word used for punishment is the Greek word kolasis which was originally meaning “pruning “ or “docking” and had the connotation of correction to make better or to get rid of something that is holding something back from what it should be. When you say that my way of reading these verses contradict other scripture, tell me why I should not say the same thing to you , the other scripture you think contradict why are those scriptures not being understood wrong because as you say they contradict each other?

 

[FineLinen]

No this is merely based on human sentiment not scripture. What your saying is contradictory to what was actually written. You can surely bet everything you have that God will do exactly what He said He would do.

A guy such as yourself who believes all does not mean all, hopefully will recognise Yah will do precisely what He has determined within Himself!

All does not mean all?​

The all does not mean all Bible =

1 Cor. 15:22

"For as in Adam some die, so also in Christ some shall be made alive. But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished some rule and some authority and power."

Rev. 5:13

"And some created things that are in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and some things in them, I heard saying, To Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb, be blessing and honour and glory and dominion and power unto the ages of the ages."

Col. 1:18-20

"He too is that head whose body is the Church, the Firstborn from the dead, he is to the Church the Source of its life, that in some things He might occupy the foremost place/ to be in some things alone supreme.
For it pleased the Father that in him the divine nature in some of its fulness should dwell.
And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by him to reconcile some things unto Himself; by him, I say, whether they be things on earth, or things in heaven. And you that were sometimes alienated..."

Acts 3:20,21

"And He will send Jesus, your destined Christ, yet heaven must retain Him, until the restitution of some things. (when some things are put right)"

1 Cor. 15:28

"And when some things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put some things under Him, that God may be some in some."

1 Cor. 15:25,27

"For He must reign until He hath put some enemies under His feet...For He hath put some things under His feet. But when He says some things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put some things under Him."

Romans 11:32

"For God has consigned some men to disobedience that He might have mercy upon some."

Eph. 4:10

"Yea, He who came down is the same who is gone up, far above some heavens, that He might fill some things with His Presence."

John 5:28

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which some that are in the graves shall hear His voice. Those who have done good will to live and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

1 Timothy 2:4

"For this is good and pleasing in the eyes of God our Saviour; who will have some men to be saved and come to an increasing knowledge of the truth."

1 Timothy 2:6

"For there is one intermediary (One who brings God and men together) who gave Himself a ransom in behalf of some to be testified in due time."

Cor. 5:15

"For the love of God overmasters us because we judge that if one died for some, then were some dead; And that His purpose in dying for some was that men, while still in life, should cease to live for themselves, and should live for Him who for their sake died and was raised to life."

Col. 1:16

"For by Him were some things created, of things in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen (angels or archangels and some of the powers of Heaven)....some things were created by Him, and for Him (some were made by Christ for His own use and glory.)

John 3:35

"The Father loves the Son, and has given some things into His hand (has given Him control over less than everything). Whoever trusts on the Son possesses eternal life and he who does not obey the Son, God's displeasure hangs over him continually."

Gal. 3:20

"But the Scripture has concluded/consigned some without exception to the custody of sin, in order that the promise by faith in Christ Jesus might be given to those who believe in Him."

Heb. 1:2

"God...hath in these days spoken unto us in His Son who is the predestined Lord of the universe. (whom he has appointed heir of some things)"
2 Cor. 5:14

"For the love of Christ constrains/overmasters/compels/controls us, and this is the conviction we have reached; if one man died on behalf of some, then some thereby became dead men. Christ died for some, so that being alive should no longer mean living with our own life, but with his life who died for us and has risen again."

Heb.8:11

"And they shall not teach some men his neighbor, and some his brother, saying get to know the Lord, for some of them shall know me from small to great. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness..."

Acts 10:36

"The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: He is Lord of some.

Rom. 11:36

"For from him some things come; through Him some things exists; and in him some things end." (For of him and through him, and to him are some things.)

Eph. 4:6

"One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of some, who is over some, and works through some, and dwells in some."

Heb. 12:23

"To the festal gathering and Church of the first-born, enrolled as citizens in heaven, and to God the Judge of some men and unto the spirits of righteous ones made perfect."

James 2:10

"For whomsoever shall keep the whole law, but fails in a single point, has become guilty of violating some."

Romans 3:22,23

"..the righteous of God which comes by believing in Jesus Christ. ...For some have sinned/ none have attained the glorious likeness of God/lack the glory that comes from God/ are deprived of the Divine splendour."

John 17:2

"You have made him sovereign over some of mankind that he should give life to some..."

Romans 9:5

"The patriarchs are theirs and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. May God who is supreme above some, be blessed throughout the ages."

2 Peter 3:9

"The Lord is not slack/does not loiter/ is not dilatory concerning his promise, according to some people's conception of slowness; but He bears patiently with you, because it is not His will for any to be lost, but for some to come/reach repentance."

Phil. 2:10,11

In order that in adoration of the Name of Jesus some knees of worshippers will bow themselves and openly acknowledge with joy, in celebration and praise, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This profession and confession of His lordship shall be open and freely proclaimed, acknowledged joyfully by some beings in the heavens, by some beings on the earth and by some beings in the underworld.

Please Remember...
All does not radically mean all.
Whole is not whole.

All = Some

 

[BNR32FAN]

Isaiah 46:10 all of my council, it shall be confirmed and all my desire shall I do - Psalm 115:3 our God is in the heavens, all that he desires, he will do . Now show me the verses that say that God doesn’t get what he desires and what is more powerful than God that would keep him from getting what he desires. Also if man has been a constant disappointment to God why did God create people in the first place because did he not know what was going to happen before he created the world ? God could only be disappointed if he didn’t know what was going to happen in the first place. We need to be careful not to make God into man’s image.

Just because something is expected doesn’t mean that it can’t be disappointing. I knew my son would disobey me before he was even conceived, that doesn’t mean I’m not disappointed when he does disobey me. When I buy a car I know it’s going to break down someday, it doesn’t make it any less disappointing when it happens even tho I knew it would happen before I bought it.

I already told you why God doesn’t always get what He wants. Free will is the reason God doesn’t get what He wants from us. Did God want to kill mankind in the flood?

“Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. The Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6‬:‭5‬-‭7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Now I’ll admit that this probably isn’t the best translation of what’s being said here. I’m at work and just don’t have the time to look for a more accurate translation but the point here is that God was grieved by man’s sinfulness and He was grieved that in order to make His plan work He was going to have to kill the vast majority of man in the flood. He didn’t like it, it wasn’t something He was looking forward to doing, but He knew it had to be done in order to carry out His plan.

God didn’t want a lot of things to happen, but they did.

 

[BNR32FAN]

A guy such as yourself who believes all does not mean all, hopefully will recognise Yah will do precisely what He has determined within Himself!

All does not mean all?​

The all does not mean all Bible =

1 Cor. 15:22

"For as in Adam some die, so also in Christ some shall be made alive. But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished some rule and some authority and power."

Rev. 5:13

"And some created things that are in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and some things in them, I heard saying, To Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb, be blessing and honour and glory and dominion and power unto the ages of the ages."

Col. 1:18-20

"He too is that head whose body is the Church, the Firstborn from the dead, he is to the Church the Source of its life, that in some things He might occupy the foremost place/ to be in some things alone supreme.
For it pleased the Father that in him the divine nature in some of its fulness should dwell.
And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by him to reconcile some things unto Himself; by him, I say, whether they be things on earth, or things in heaven. And you that were sometimes alienated..."

Acts 3:20,21

"And He will send Jesus, your destined Christ, yet heaven must retain Him, until the restitution of some things. (when some things are put right)"

1 Cor. 15:28

"And when some things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put some things under Him, that God may be some in some."

1 Cor. 15:25,27

"For He must reign until He hath put some enemies under His feet...For He hath put some things under His feet. But when He says some things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put some things under Him."

Romans 11:32

"For God has consigned some men to disobedience that He might have mercy upon some."

Eph. 4:10

"Yea, He who came down is the same who is gone up, far above some heavens, that He might fill some things with His Presence."

John 5:28

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which some that are in the graves shall hear His voice. Those who have done good will to live and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

1 Timothy 2:4

"For this is good and pleasing in the eyes of God our Saviour; who will have some men to be saved and come to an increasing knowledge of the truth."

1 Timothy 2:6

"For there is one intermediary (One who brings God and men together) who gave Himself a ransom in behalf of some to be testified in due time."

Cor. 5:15

"For the love of God overmasters us because we judge that if one died for some, then were some dead; And that His purpose in dying for some was that men, while still in life, should cease to live for themselves, and should live for Him who for their sake died and was raised to life."

Col. 1:16

"For by Him were some things created, of things in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen (angels or archangels and some of the powers of Heaven)....some things were created by Him, and for Him (some were made by Christ for His own use and glory.)

John 3:35

"The Father loves the Son, and has given some things into His hand (has given Him control over less than everything). Whoever trusts on the Son possesses eternal life and he who does not obey the Son, God's displeasure hangs over him continually."

Gal. 3:20

"But the Scripture has concluded/consigned some without exception to the custody of sin, in order that the promise by faith in Christ Jesus might be given to those who believe in Him."

Heb. 1:2

"God...hath in these days spoken unto us in His Son who is the predestined Lord of the universe. (whom he has appointed heir of some things)"
2 Cor. 5:14

"For the love of Christ constrains/overmasters/compels/controls us, and this is the conviction we have reached; if one man died on behalf of some, then some thereby became dead men. Christ died for some, so that being alive should no longer mean living with our own life, but with his life who died for us and has risen again."

Heb.8:11

"And they shall not teach some men his neighbor, and some his brother, saying get to know the Lord, for some of them shall know me from small to great. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness..."

Acts 10:36

"The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: He is Lord of some.

Rom. 11:36

"For from him some things come; through Him some things exists; and in him some things end." (For of him and through him, and to him are some things.)

Eph. 4:6

"One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of some, who is over some, and works through some, and dwells in some."

Heb. 12:23

"To the festal gathering and Church of the first-born, enrolled as citizens in heaven, and to God the Judge of some men and unto the spirits of righteous ones made perfect."

James 2:10

"For whomsoever shall keep the whole law, but fails in a single point, has become guilty of violating some."

Romans 3:22,23

"..the righteous of God which comes by believing in Jesus Christ. ...For some have sinned/ none have attained the glorious likeness of God/lack the glory that comes from God/ are deprived of the Divine splendour."

John 17:2

"You have made him sovereign over some of mankind that he should give life to some..."

Romans 9:5

"The patriarchs are theirs and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. May God who is supreme above some, be blessed throughout the ages."

2 Peter 3:9

"The Lord is not slack/does not loiter/ is not dilatory concerning his promise, according to some people's conception of slowness; but He bears patiently with you, because it is not His will for any to be lost, but for some to come/reach repentance."

Phil. 2:10,11

In order that in adoration of the Name of Jesus some knees of worshippers will bow themselves and openly acknowledge with joy, in celebration and praise, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This profession and confession of His lordship shall be open and freely proclaimed, acknowledged joyfully by some beings in the heavens, by some beings on the earth and by some beings in the underworld.

Please Remember...
All does not radically mean all.
Whole is not whole.

All = Some

All of this is completely useless. I gave examples where pas was used that did not refer to all. Even you admitted that in those verses it didn’t actually mean all. So what’s the point of all this garbage your posting here? I proved my point that pas does not always mean all, I never said that it never means all.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes repentance is absolutely necessary, but show me the scripture that says you can only repent while your mortal body is alive. You will probably quote Heb 9:27 but only if you assume that the judgement is a judgement of heaven or hell and that hell is a eternal torture chamber. I believe in the tradition that what we call he’ll is a place of correction and refinement until repentance. And That is because in Matt 25:46 the word used for punishment is the Greek word kolasis which was originally meaning “pruning “ or “docking” and had the connotation of correction to make better or to get rid of something that is holding something back from what it should be. When you say that my way of reading these verses contradict other scripture, tell me why I should not say the same thing to you , the other scripture you think contradict why are those scriptures not being understood wrong because as you say they contradict each other?

Ok and that’s great that your looking into the Greek definitions they can be extremely helpful in understanding what was actually intended by the author but we absolutely must consider all passages that deal with this punishment. Sure some verses could be interpreted like your interpretation of Matthew 25:46 but how does that interpretation line up with other passages that deal with that punishment that don’t use those words? The punishment is described in so many ways and we must take all of them into consideration in order to arrive at an interpretation that doesn’t contradict any of them. Our interpretation must line up flawlessly with all the verses that pertain to the punishment of the wicked after death. For example what about the punishment that Judas will encounter for betraying Jesus. Jesus said it would be better for him if he had never been born. If Judas would eventually be forgiven and receive eternal life in heaven then it would not be better for him if he had never been born. Jesus also said that not everyone who says to Him Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of God. He also said that the way to life is narrow and few find it. Your interpretation contradicts these verses so it cannot be correct if everyone doesn’t enter the kingdom of God and only few find the narrow path to life. So you can’t just take one passage and form a doctrine that contradicts other passages that are dealing with the punishment and who will enter into heaven. That’s why your theology doesn’t work.

 

[FineLinen]

All of this is completely useless. I gave examples where pas was used that did not refer to all. Even you admitted that in those verses it didn’t actually mean all. So what’s the point of all this garbage your posting here? I proved my point that pas does not always mean all, I never said that it never means all.

There are a few instances where pas does not radically mean all, very few.

Our word for today= synecdoche

 

[atpollard]

I've suffered with this question.

It never made sense to me.

Whats a sacrifice got to do with the price of oil? How can that satisfy ? How can it be payment for anything? Why would an innocent substitute do? Isn't it a bit of a wrath loophole etc etc??!!

In the end - i settled on this:
Paul / NT Author's trying to persuade people about Christ - were not ready to give up the sacrifice system yet. So they said "you need a sacrifice?? there it is, jesus!"

Nowadays - sacrifice (to me anyway) doesn't make any sense.

So Jesus was either Just a man, or had no need to come and die to save mankind ... right?

[sigh]

Y'all have my sympathy, but you have "screwed up" something REALLY beautiful.

John 3:14-18 [NKJV]
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Numbers 21:4-9 [NKJV]
Then they journeyed from Mount Hor by the Way of the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; and the soul of the people became very discouraged on the way. And the people spoke against God and against Moses: "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For [there is] no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread." So the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.
Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, "We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you; pray to the LORD that He take away the serpents from us." So Moses prayed for the people.
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery [serpent], and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live." So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

So, as a starting point, what happened in Numbers 21?