The Issue of Universalism and Possible Ultimate Release from Hell

[Shrewd Manager]

Is your reply different from what I said? My analysis of Joh 11:25-26 was supportive of your view and I expected that you would agree with my message.

It seems that one can come to believe _after_ physical death.

Now why did I need to re-read that twice before realising you did not say "It seems that no one..."

Pray for me, I may be in the grip of the spirit of adversity, smh.

Please proceed.

 

[David's Harp]

It really is straight forward:

Joh 11:25 Jesus then said to her,

“I am the resurrection and the life.
Whoever believes in me,
even though he dies, will live,
26 and everyone who lives
and believes in me
will never die.
Do you believe this?”

According to Cambridge Commentary, ‘He that believeth in Me, even if he shall have died (physically), shall live (eternally). And every one that liveth (physically) and believeth in Me, shall never die (eternally).’

It seems that one can come to believe _after_ physical death. There is no salvation except through the Lord Jesus:

John 14:6. "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Hi Andrewn. I've read and re-read the quote from John 11, and your statement, a number of times to see if I'm missing something. You obviously see something in the passage that suggests the potential for an unbeliever to come to salvation after death, yet Jesus' words are in reference to believers. In verse 25 it would appear that belief comes before death, and in verse 26 both being alive and believing seem to be pre-requisites for eternal life.

Rather than presenting evidence for Universalism, I think this shows evidence against. Can you explain further what you see in this passage that advocates belief after death?

 

[ARBITER01]

Hah

Now I know why your doctrinal stances on the gifts thread is so messed up, it's because everything else is also.

 

[Andrewn]

Jesus' words are in reference to believers. In verse 25 it would appear that belief comes before death, and in verse 26 both being alive and believing seem to be pre-requisites for eternal life.

These verses mention 2 classes of people:

Verse 26: Everyone who lives (physically) and believe in Me, will never die (eternally).’

This is about Christians who live and believe in Christ. We will always be with Christ and never die (spiritually).

Verse 25: Everyone who believes in Me, even if he had died (physically), will live (eternally).

This is about non-Christians who may come to believe in Christ after physical death.


If one understands verse 25 to simply mean that Christians will be physically resurrected, then verse 26 becomes a false assertion. Everyone knows that Christians do suffer physical death.

 

[Basil the Great]

Based upon my readings on Eastern Orthodoxy, there appears to be a view within Orthodoxy, even if probably a minority position, that prayers for those currently bound for Hell, may yet be able to allow a small number of them to have their sentence changed to Heaven, as long as this happens prior to the second coming of Jesus.

 

[Berserk]

Let me now explain why I started this thread and the sense in which I'm playing Devil's Advocate.
(1) I was convinced that readers could not refute the best universalist texts by directly addressing their exegesis of them, but would instead flee to other irrelevant texts. The many responses have confirmed that conviction.
(2) The many universalist texts are contingent on a freely chosen positive response to God's offer of grace and transformation. God will mobilize all His resources to enhance opportunities for Hell-bound sinners to make the right choices and experience redemptive transformation, but He will neither override their free will nor retrieve them from Hell without their consent or eagerness to be spiritually transformed.
(3) The NT universalist texts represent the divine plan which God will relentlessly and creatively work to implement and fulfill. God must do this because God is Love and God does not stop loving the damned even in Hell. But the future is not fixed for a prophetic vision of the future. In OT prophetism Israel can often in principle avoid the seemingly unretractable pronouncements of judgment through repentance.
I believe the NT vision of universal salvation will be thwarted for many whose nature is so controlled by evil that they will never be open to easing their torment by opening their soul to higher possibilities. But the universalist texts still represent God's plan and desire.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

believe the NT vision of universal salvation will be thwarted for many whose nature is so controlled by evil that they will never be open to easing their torment by opening their soul to higher possibilities. But the universalist texts still represent God's plan and desire.

Behold the fate of the would-be baddest boys in the hood:

Look at those who belong to the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews but are liars instead. I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and they will know that I love you. (Rev 3:9)

 

[FineLinen]

You obviously see something in the passage that suggests the potential for an unbeliever to come to salvation after death, yet Jesus' words are in reference to believers. In verse 25 it would appear that belief comes before death, and in verse 26 both being alive and believing seem to be pre-requisites for eternal life.

Coming to be in Christ Jesus is an incredible experience. Our God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially those who believe/ trust in him. Please note: especially is not only.

God's salvation is not limited to today.

Jesus Christ ministers to the dead

 

[FineLinen]

 

[Berserk]

POSTMORTEM RELEASE FROM GEHENNA IN JESUS' TEACHING
As expected, Jesus' teaching neatly aligns with the universalist texts in 1 Peter, Paul, and Revelation. Jesus' preferred word for "Hell" is the Jewish term "Gehenna," a common term for "Hell" in ancient rabbinic Judaism. So the meaning of this word must be sought in its ancient rabbinic usage. This usage demonstrates that rabbinic "Gehenna" is foundational for the later doctrine of Purgatory. To quote one Jewish site:

"For the most part the rabbis did not believe souls would be condemned to eternal punishment. "The punishment of the wicked in Gehenna is twelve months," states Shabbat 33b, while other texts say the time-frame could be anywhere from three to twelve months."

Similarly, Jesus uses the expressions "few blows" and "many blows" to limit postmortem punishment based on how much spiritual knowledge the condemned had in this life (Luke12:47-48). This punitive imagery, especially "few blows," implies a finite limit to postmortem judgment and therefore ultimate release. Accordingly, Jesus uses the image of a debtor's prison to illustrate postmortem punishment in Gehenna, adding "Truly I tell you, you will never get out UNTIL YOU HAVE PAID THE LAST PENNY (Matthew 5:25-26 par. Luke 12:57-59)." Once the debt is paid, release follows. Here Jesus uses His standard formula, "Truly I say to you," which always applies to our relationship with God, never to secular matters like beating the rap to avoid prison. A similar reference to Gehenna as a debtor's prison is implied in Jesus' parable in which the unforgiving servant is handed over to the torturers only "until he should pay all his debt (Matthew 18:34)." The prospect of postmortem release from Gehenna provides context for Jesus' declaration, "If I am lifted up from the earth , I will draw ALL people to myself (John 12:32)."

The reference to "aionios" punishment" in Matthew 25:46 must be interpreted in the light of this teaching. Sinners remain in "aionios" punishment only as long as they refuse to repent. Remember, "aionios" need not mean "eternal," as various NT examples demonstrate.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Understanding Christian universalism made simple.

I have read many threads on the subject of universalism. And usually when it comes to orthodox Christian beliefs, primarily the only area where unversalists and their detractors are divided is whether hell is is place of correction and purification, or a place of eternal tormenting punishment. And that's all.

Most/all statements I've seen that start off with "Christian universalism teaches..." or "Christian unversalists believe..." outside of that, are erroneous. It actually ends up as bearing false witness. So I think it would be best for those who make claims regarding what Christian unversalists believe and teach, to actually be accurate regarding those claims.

It really comes down to the definition of aionios if you believe that it is of the age or eon like they did for the first 500 years of the church then Universal redemption makes complete biblical sense. If you believe it’s eternal then you are part of the Augustine beliefs adopted from pagan religion that hell is eternal. That’s really what the whole argument is about

 

[Jeff Saunders]

It really is straight forward:

Joh 11:25 Jesus then said to her,

“I am the resurrection and the life.
Whoever believes in me,
even though he dies, will live,
26 and everyone who lives
and believes in me
will never die.
Do you believe this?”

According to Cambridge Commentary, ‘He that believeth in Me, even if he shall have died (physically), shall live (eternally). And every one that liveth (physically) and believeth in Me, shall never die (eternally).’

It seems that one can come to believe _after_ physical death. There is no salvation except through the Lord Jesus:

Post death acceptance of Jesus is the only way possible for those who died before Jesus to get to the Father. Jesus said no one comes to the Father except by me. If you don’t have post death acceptance of Jesus then you must believe in multiple roads to the Father and make Jesus out to be false.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I agree with what you’ve said here but there are often indications in the scriptures that reveal the intended meaning. Like for example

““Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭3:28-29‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Universalists will use the argument that you have used above to say that this is not an eternal sin and that this sin will eventually be forgiven. Even when compared to Matthew 12 they will still say that it won’t be forgiven in this age or the next but that it will eventually be forgiven.

““Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:31-32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

But when you examine Luke 12:10 Jesus doesn’t use the words aionios or aion He simply says it will not be forgiven. So with this context in perspective we can conclude that the other passages are conveying the same message and that it is in fact an eternal sin that will never be forgiven. So it’s important that when we see words like this that we examine the surrounding context and any parallel passages to get a more comprehensive understanding of what’s actually being said.

The reason it can’t be forgiven is because you can’t have forgiveness till you yield to the Holy Spirit as long as you don’t yield you are still in your sins even in the next age . But once you yield your sins will be forgiven either in this life or the next.

 

[Ceallaigh]

It really comes down to the definition of aionios if you believe that it is of the age or eon like they did for the first 500 years of the church then Universal redemption makes complete biblical sense. If you believe it’s eternal then you are part of the Augustine beliefs adopted from pagan religion that hell is eternal. That’s really what the whole argument is about

It might not have anything to with time. Check out this fascinating perspective:

 

[BNR32FAN]

The reason it can’t be forgiven is because you can’t have forgiveness till you yield to the Holy Spirit as long as you don’t yield you are still in your sins even in the next age . But once you yield your sins will be forgiven either in this life or the next.

If that were the case then no one would go to hell in the first place because everyone will believe in the afterlife because the evidence will be undeniable.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

If that were the case then no one would go to hell in the first place because everyone will believe in the afterlife because the evidence will be undeniable.

Exactly, but all those who have not put their faith and trust in Jesus will go in the lake of fire and the refinement of the fire will remove all the dross that has kept each from following Jesus and his undeniable love they will see for the first time and anyone who has truly seen and experienced that love knows that you can’t resist forever. Those who say you can resist have never seen or tasted the Love of Yahweh they only know religion or tradition,

 

[ARBITER01]

Exactly, but all those who have not put their faith and trust in Jesus will go in the lake of fire and the refinement of the fire will remove all the dross that has kept each from following Jesus....

Where does scripture say that the lake of fire is for refinement?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Where does scripture say that the lake of fire is for refinement?

Where does scripture say there are two wills of God ? No you will not find a scripture that says “ the lake of fire is for refinement “ but if you look at all of scripture as a whole you find the idea. When you understand the nature and character of Yahweh you will see it’s the only way a loving God can be if he truly does love his creation. Torching people for eternity is not love . Correction unto repentance is love.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Exactly, but all those who have not put their faith and trust in Jesus will go in the lake of fire and the refinement of the fire will remove all the dross that has kept each from following Jesus and his undeniable love they will see for the first time and anyone who has truly seen and experienced that love knows that you can’t resist forever. Those who say you can resist have never seen or tasted the Love of Yahweh they only know religion or tradition,

I suppose your basing this on 1 Corinthians 3:11-15? If so you need to understand that this only applies to those who are “building on the foundation of Christ”. There are no verses that describe hell as a place of refinement only destruction and perish.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I suppose your basing this on 1 Corinthians 3:11-15? If so you need to understand that this only applies to those who are “building on the foundation of Christ”. There are no verses that describe hell as a place of refinement only destruction and perish.

If you research the Greek word used for punishment ( I am still learning this myself) you will see that it’s for correction, one thing I read said it’s a agricultural word used for pruning trees so they will produce more fruit . If that is true how is torment forever going to bring about correction? If it’s not to correction and eventually to repentance and they are dead in sin forever how would 1Cor 15 ever be fulfilled when scripture says death is the last thing to be conquered and then God will be all in all. If he’ll is forever then death is forever and scripture would not be able to be fulfilled.