The Great Tribulation: 66-70 AD, or

[klutedavid]

Question:

The Great Tribulation AD66-70 (Roman war against Judah)? or 42-month reign of the beast at the end of the Age?

OR.. ?

View attachment 280829​

We have a problem Houston.

Matthew 24:15-16
Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Luke 21:25
And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luke 21:32
Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.

Two separate events are clearly identified here. The first event, concerns the destruction of the temple. The second event, involves the end of, 'the times of the Gentiles'.

Which of these two events is fulfilled during the era of, 'this generation'. Well that can only be the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. We are now in the time of the Gentiles and the temple was destroyed a long time ago.

This is the only way to understand Matthew 24 and Luke 21 together.

If your understanding of eschatology excludes either Luke 21:32 or Luke 21:25, then it's back to Christianity 101 for you.

 

[klutedavid]

There are two different "Tribulations". They are not the same.

Correct, one for Israel in 70 AD and one for the Gentiles at the end of days.

 

[klutedavid]

OK I see you can't answer. Possibly because you are ignoring the fact that Jesus stated that His return will come "immediately after" the tribulation of those days (Matthew 24:29). Possibly because you only want half the picture Jesus gave us. The other half you prefer to ignore - otherwise you would not be ignoring the fact that Jesus stated that His return will come immediately after that great tribulation.

You have to read Luke 21 in conjunction with Matthew 24. There are clearly two events sown into one event in Matthew 24. Get on top of Luke 21 and the misunderstanding evaporates.

 

[DavidPT]

Luke 21:25
And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luke 21:32
Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.

Two separate events are clearly identified here. The first event, concerns the destruction of the temple. The second event, involves the end of, 'the times of the Gentiles'.

Which of these two events is fulfilled during the era of, 'this generation'. Well that can only be the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. We are now in the time of the Gentiles and the temple was destroyed a long time ago.

This is the only way to understand Matthew 24 and Luke 21 together.

If your understanding of eschatology excludes either Luke 21:32 or Luke 21:25, then it's back to Christianity 101 for you.

You are apparently cherry picking in order to make it appear that your view actually works. Maybe you neglected to notice, but I didn't---Jesus said what He said in Luke 21:25 first. Which then means the part you admitted we are still currently in, it obviously also has to be included among 'until all things take place', before this generation can pass. What part of 'all things' are you not grasping? All things don't mean some things, it means all things, meaning all the events Jesus already brought up prior to what He stated in Luke 21:32. And that includes His coming, because unless He comes back first, this generation certainly can't pass away in the meantime. And it certainly can't pass prior to the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled either, which you appear to be claiming it can and does.

 

[DavidPT]

I agree there is not 7 year tribulation. There is only 3.5 years the saints in Israel have tribulation.(are persecuted)
But the great tribulation is at the end of the 42 months.
Christ said that when the abomination of desolation is placed, there would be great tribulation. That is at the end of the 42 months.
Daniel was told that when the king of the north goes forth in great fury to destroy and utterly make away many in 11:44 that at that time there would be distress unlike there has ever been before and at that time his people would be delivered and many who sleep in the dust shall awake at that time.

Compare

Daniel 12:1 NIV: "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.

Compare

Matthew 24:21 NIV: For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.


The abomination of desolation happens the same day of the resurrection, as evidence of the cloud ascending from Jerusalem the same day the two witnesses come back to life.

I'm not quite following you here. I don't know what you mean by the GT being at the end of the 42 months, the fact I take the entire 42 months to mean the GT.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Because, not being dispensational futurists, they all heeded Jesus' warning (Matthew 24:16; Luke 21:21; Mark 13:14), fled to the mountains, and did not perish.

There was no believer left to be a witness.

Christians were being killed left and right in those days. Do you believe Paul, Peter and James were killed because they didn't listen to Jesus?

 

[shilohsfoal]

I'm not quite following you here. I don't know what you mean by the GT being at the end of the 42 months, the fact I take the entire 42 months to mean the GT.

It's true the saints in Israel will be persecuted for 42 months but that isn't what Jesus is calling great tribulation.
From the time the daily sacrifice is abolished to when the abomination of desolation is placed is 1290 days. When our armed forces use the abomination of desolation, then will be great tribulation unlike there has ever been or ever shall be. Our armed forces will destroy nearly all of the middle east and north Africa.
Jeremiah 1:14 Then the LORD said to me, "Disaster from the north will be poured out on all who live in the land.

This is what Jesus is calling great tribulation.

Daniel 11:44 NIV: But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many.

 

[parousia70]

You have to read Luke 21 in conjunction with Matthew 24. There are clearly two events sown into one event in Matthew 24. Get on top of Luke 21 and the misunderstanding evaporates.

But How can you divorce Luke 21:25 from Revelation 11:1-2?

Compare THIS:
Luke 21:25
And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

To THIS:
Revelation 11:1-2
“Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, ‘Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles, and they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.’”

These are parallel texts, therefore cannot have polar opposite meanings.

The Time of gentile Trampling of the City was ordained to last 42 Months after it began. not 2000+ years.
The latter is based solely on man made tradition and not on any scriptural teaching.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Question:

The Great Tribulation AD66-70 (Roman war against Judah)? or 42-month reign of the beast at the end of the Age?

OR.. ?

View attachment 280829​

There is no such thing as "the great tribulation". Jesus Christ of Nazareth said, "There will be great tribulation", meaning, a lot of it. Once this is confirmed in one's mind, much of this futuristic apocalyptic time period mind set will melt away.
Be blessed.

 

[shilohsfoal]

There is no such thing as "the great tribulation". Jesus Christ of Nazareth said, "There will be great tribulation", meaning, a lot of it. Once this is confirmed in one's mind, much of this futuristic apocalyptic time period mind set will melt away.
Be blessed.

I thought Jesus said there would be great tribulation unlike there has ever been or ever shall be again.

That's means the bomb dropped on Hiroshima will be like child's play compared to the tribulation the armed forces will cause in the middle east.It's so bad no one will be able to live in Egypt for 40 years.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I thought Jesus said there would be great tribulation unlike there has ever been or ever shall be again.

That's means the bomb dropped on Hiroshima will be like child's play compared to the tribulation the armed forces will cause in the middle east.
And Daniel said at that time the resurrection takes place.

Yes He said great tribulation however He did not say "The" great tribulation. You may want to check back in history, there has been much tribulation to those who follow Jesus Christ of Nazareth since He ascended to heaven.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Yes He said great tribulation however He did not say "The" great tribulation. You may want to check back in history, there has been much tribulation to those who follow Jesus Christ of Nazareth since He ascended to heaven.

Well Jesus isn't talking about tribulation.
He's talking about the great tribulation caused by the abomination of desolation.
Our weapons have gotten 100 times stronger than the Hiroshima bomb. We will probably only use one in Egypt and no one will be able to live there for 40 years.
It's possible our armed forces kill 200 million people in a day.

 

[klutedavid]

You are apparently cherry picking in order to make it appear that your view actually works. Maybe you neglected to notice, but I didn't---Jesus said what He said in Luke 21:25 first. Which then means the part you admitted we are still currently in, it obviously also has to be included among 'until all things take place', before this generation can pass. What part of 'all things' are you not grasping? All things don't mean some things, it means all things, meaning all the events Jesus already brought up prior to what He stated in Luke 21:32. And that includes His coming, because unless He comes back first, this generation certainly can't pass away in the meantime. And it certainly can't pass prior to the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled either, which you appear to be claiming it can and does.

There you go, you have done exactly what I said you are doing. You have included the destruction of the temple and the demolition of Jerusalem into the age of the Gentiles. By the way, I don't have a view in eschatology.

They are two separate events, unfortunately, rolled into one.

'All things take place', applies only to the desolation of the temple and Jerusalem.

Luke 21:24
And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Jews were scattered all over the world after 70 AD, Jerusalem was trampled underfoot for 2000 years so far.

Until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled!

'This generation', is the generation Jesus was talking to, not some generation at the end of days.

 

[shilohsfoal]

There you go, you have done exactly what I said you are doing. You have included the destruction of the temple and the demolition of Jerusalem into the age of the Gentiles. By the way, I don't have a view in eschatology.

They are two separate events, unfortunately, rolled into one.

'All things take place', applies only to the desolation of the temple and Jerusalem.

Luke 21:24
And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Jews were scattered all over the world after 70 AD, Jerusalem was trampled underfoot for 2000 years so far.

Until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled!

'This generation', is the generation Jesus was talking to, not some generation at the end of days.

Have you ever heard of the book of Revelation?
This is the time of the Gentiles Jesus was talking about.

Revelation 11:2 NIV: But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

 

[klutedavid]

Have you ever heard of the book of Revelation?
This is the time of the Gentiles Jesus was talking about.

Revelation 11:2 NIV: But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

Ah yes, I have heard of the book of Revelation.

We were discussing Matthew 24 and Luke 21, and somehow we are in the book of Revelation? So how did that happen?

The temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. We are not talking about the court of the Gentiles, we are talking about the whole temple and Jerusalem.

Revelation 11, is not referring to that desolate, man made temple in 70 AD. We have symbols displayed in Revelation 11, and you cannot read Revelation 11 in a literal way.

I get accused of cherry picking verses?

 

[klutedavid]

But How can you divorce Luke 21:25 from Revelation 11:1-2?

Compare THIS:
Luke 21:25
And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

To THIS:
Revelation 11:1-2
“Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, ‘Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles, and they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.’”

These are parallel texts, therefore cannot have polar opposite meanings.

The Time of gentile Trampling of the City was ordained to last 42 Months after it began. not 2000+ years.
The latter is based solely on man made tradition and not on any scriptural teaching.

They are not parallel texts.

The temple in Revelation 11 is still standing, whereas the temple the disciples were referring to was desolate in 70 AD.

I refuse to interpret the symbols in Revelation 11, but one possible interpretation is, the temple refers to the church.

 

[jgr]

Christians were being killed left and right in those days. Do you believe Paul, Peter and James were killed because they didn't listen to Jesus?

Paul and Peter were martyred in Rome. The Christians fled from Judaea, not Rome.
Which James?

 

[shilohsfoal]

Ah yes, I have heard of the book of Revelation.

We were discussing Matthew 24 and Luke 21, and somehow we are in the book of Revelation? So how did that happen?

The temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. We are not talking about the court of the Gentiles, we are talking about the whole temple and Jerusalem.

Revelation 11, is not referring to that desolate, man made temple in 70 AD. We have symbols displayed in Revelation 11, and you cannot read Revelation 11 in a literal way.

I get accused of cherry picking verses?

So you are saying you can't read the word of God in a literal way while you read the word of God in a literal way.
Im sure Jesus knew the Gentiles will tread Jerusalem under foot for 42 months. After all, he is the word of God.

Revelation 11:2 NIV: But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

Luke 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


The book of Daniel also confirms the Gentiles tread Jerusalem under foot 42 months.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Paul and Peter were martyred in Rome. The Christians fled from Judaea, not Rome.
Which James?

James, brother of Jesus.


So you believe they died because they didn't listen to Jesus?

 

[jgr]

James, brother of Jesus.


So you believe they died because they didn't listen to Jesus?

They (Paul and Peter) didn't listen to Jesus because His warning was inapplicable to them.
Rome was not in Judaea.
The Roman army didn't invade Rome.
Rome was already Roman.
It invaded Judaea.
Jesus' warning was applicable to the Christians in Judaea.

The Christians fled in 66 AD.
James the brother of Jesus died in 62 AD or 69 AD.
If the former, his death preceded the Christians' flight.
If the latter, he decided to remain despite Jesus' warning.