The Great Tribulation: 66-70 AD, or

[shilohsfoal]

They (Paul and Peter) didn't listen to Jesus because His warning was inapplicable to them.
Rome was not in Judaea.
The Roman army didn't invade Rome.
Rome was already Roman.
It invaded Judaea.
Jesus warning was applicable to the Christians in Judaea.

The Christians fled in 66 AD.
James the brother of Jesus died in 62 AD or 69 AD.
If the former, his death preceded the Christians' flight.
If the latter, he decided to remain despite Jesus' warning.

But you said the Christians lived because they listen to Jesus.
Paul, Peter and James were murdered.

If they listened to Jesus they wouldn't have died would they? I mean, since you believe Jesus didn't want Christians to die then they must not have been doing things right?

 

[jgr]

But you said the Christians lived because they listen to Jesus.
Paul, Peter and James were murdered.

If they listened to Jesus they wouldn't have died would they? I mean, since you believe Jesus didn't want Christians to die then they must not have been doing things right?

You said the Christians lived because they listen to Jesus.

I said the Judaean Christians (other than perhaps James) lived because they heeded Jesus' warning.

 

[shilohsfoal]

You said the Christians lived because they listen to Jesus.

I said the Judaean Christians (other than perhaps James) lived because they heeded Jesus' warning.

OK, if Jesus was warning them because he didn't want them to die then why was he OK with all the other Christians dieing around the world in Israel and in Rome?

Were the Christians such as Paul, Peter and James doing something wrong since you believe Jesus didn't want Christians to die?

 

[jgr]

OK, if Jesus was warning them because he didn't want them to die then why was he OK with all the other Christians dieing around the world in Israel and in Rome?

Were the Christians such as Paul, Peter and James doing something wrong since you believe Jesus didn't want Christians to die?

Every Christian who has ever lived up to 200 years ago has died.

Many Christians die every day.

Why doesn't Jesus do something?

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

What is the probability of the same common elements in the two passages below, without them being related?
Most Bible scholars agree that the first part of Luke 21:24 is about what happened during 70 AD.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations...


.

hi one of the admonitions when you see Jerusalem being surrounded to flee was addressed to the disciples and indeed the Christians fled in 70 AD. The abomination of desolation is still future. From the time the daily sacrifices are taken away there shall be a time times and half a time. In Rev the beast gains authority over every tribe tongue kindred and nations for exactly 42 months. he is given this authority from the dragon who is identified as Satan. The man is destroyed and cast into the lake of fire at the 2nd coming. In 2 Thes 2 we see the man of sin is revealed in the Temple declaring himself to be some sort of God and lying signs and wonders are performed and this guy is also destroyed at the coming of the LORD. It is more in line that the AOD is future and then Israel will flee as Jesus warned them to. The kingdom coming will present a stark contrast in the before and after conditions of the earth. Everlasting righteousness, world peace, Ruling with a rod of Iron, Israel saved and born again receiving the new heart promised in so many places. if futurism is wrong and Christ is reigning now we have a problem. I expect a standard never achieved to be achieved when Jesus takes the throne of David. The millennium will be spectacular

 

[klutedavid]

hi one of the admonitions when you see Jerusalem being surrounded to flee was addressed to the disciples and indeed the Christians fled in 70 AD.

Correct so far.

The abomination of desolation is still future.

No, the temple was left desolate in 70 AD.

From the time the daily sacrifices are taken away there shall be a time times and half a time.

That has already occurred, no more sacrifices, there will not be another temple on the temple mount.

In 2 Thes 2 we see the man of sin is revealed in the Temple declaring himself to be some sort of God and lying signs and wonders are performed and this guy is also destroyed at the coming of the LORD.

Could be any number of different temples that the man of lawlessness may take a seat in.

It is more in line that the AOD is future and then Israel will flee as Jesus warned them to.

The desolation that Jesus predicted was fulfilled when the Romans sacked the temple.

Israel is a modern secular and democratic nation. There will never again be a nation of Israel under the law of Moses. That era of Israel under the law of Moses has ended, nearly two thousand years ago.

 

[Zao is life]

Read the following verses carefully keeping them in context and then answer this question.
How can you have great tribulation without the abomination if desolation?

Matthew 24:15 So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination of desolation,' described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),
Matthew 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Matthew 24:17 Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house.
Matthew 24:18 And let no one in the field return for his cloak.
Matthew 24:19 How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers!
Matthew 24:20 Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath.
Matthew 24:21 For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

What do you believe causes the great tribulation in the above verse?
Remember to keep it in context.

Yes, the AOD is the sign. I haven't made up my mind about what the AOD is.

 

[Zao is life]

In Revelation 12:11 the dragon can be overcome by the blood of the Lamb. The dragon gives his power, seat, and authority to the beast in Revelation 13. If the dragon can be overcome by the blood of the Lamb, then what ever power he has given to the beast, he can also be overcome by the blood of the Lamb. It doesn’t seem likely that believers will be able to overcome the beast while simultaneously the beast overcomes believers.

Nothing can separate a true believer from the love of God (Romans 8:38-39) and even in death we still magnify Christ as the last part of Philippians 1:20 states “so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death”. Since believers want the scriptures to be fulfilled exactly as described, they can’t be overcome regardless of when Revelation 13 takes place. The only choice left for who “the saints” are is national Israel.

The only way I see believers being overcome is if someone holds the doctrine that they can lose their salvation. I believe in O.S.A.S (once saved always saved).

Revelation 12 occurred when Jesus died for our sins and rose again: In John 12:31 Jesus stated, "Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out". The reason the accuser of the brethren was lo longer able to accuse the brethren was thanks to Jesus and His sacrifice for sins (they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb), so Satan was cast out.

It's not a future event. He was cast down to the earth almost 2,000 years ago and as Peter stated, he "roams around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour" (1 Peter 5:8). Paul called him "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2).

The dragon has already been overcome by the blood of the Lamb. It's not a future thing. Satan has not yet been bound (according to scripture), but he has already been defeated - he has already been overcome by the blood of Christ.

Saints <40> sacred (phys. pure, mor. blameless or religious, cer. consecrated):-(most) holy (one, thing), saint.

Based on verses such as Deuteronomy 14:2, the saints can be considered as national Israel. The saints can also certainly be believers; however the beast in Revelation 13:7 is given to make war and overcome them.

Overcome <3528> to subdue (lit. or fig.):-conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.

Saints are God's people and God's people are only those who believe God as Abraham did, hence only those who believe in Christ. Paul makes it clear in Romans 11 that any naturally born "branch" that rejects Christ is broken off from the saints.

 

[Zao is life]

Study Josephus on the destruction of Jerusalem. It will answer many of your questions and make things more clear.

I have read Josephus' account once, long time ago, but reading Josephus does not help. If one studies the Bible instead of Josephus, then the fact comes to light that two Greek words are used for God's temple in the Greek:
1. hieron, which is always referring to the outer court and buildings of the temple, or the temple precincts.
2. naos, which always only refers to the holy court and the most holy place, and once, to the body of Christ when He referred to His body as the temple of God.

The word naos is used in reference to the holy place in Luke 1:9, 21-22 (Zacharias the priest, father of John the Baptist, goes into the holy place to burn incense).

It’s also found in Matthew 23:16-17, 21 and 35 (Jesus speaking about swearing by the naos; and Jesus speaking about when Zacharias son of Barachias was slain by the Jews, who Jesus said was slain between the naos and the altar).

The word naos is also used wherever we read that Jesus referred to His body as the temple of God (Matthew 26:61; 27:40; Mark 14:58; Mark 15:29; John 2:19-21).

Matthew 27:5 tells us that Judas Iscariot threw the silver into the naos.

Matthew 27:51, Mark 15:38 and Luke 23:45 tell us about the veil in the naos (separating the holy place and most holy place) being torn when Jesus died on the cross.

The word naos is never used again in reference to the temple in Jerusalem, or any part of it, after the verses talking about the tearing of the veil in the temple. – instead, it’s used for the bodies of individual Christians (when referring to our bodies as the temple of God), and when referring to the congregation of believers as the temple, and in reference to the heavenly temple (in the Revelation)

– but the Greek word hieron is never used in reference either to the holy place of the Old Testament temple, or to the above.

The word naos is also used in Revelation 11:1 where John is told to measure the temple, and in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 in reference to the temple the man of sin will seat himself up in so IF (note: IF) those two verses are exceptions, then they are the only two exceptions to the rule.

There are two parts of Matthew 24 which do not sufficiently place the Great Tribulation in AD66-70 ONLY - the fact that Jesus stated His appearing in the clouds to gather His elect will immediately follow the tribulation that He had been speaking about, and verse 9, where after speaking of the birth-pains of His coming, He tells His disciples that they will become hated of ALL nations for His name sake, and killed. It is in THIS context that Jesus speaks about the Great Tribulation, and the whole passage is joined together into one long sentence by the words "and", therefore", "but" and "for", leaving no room to divide the (time of) Great Tribulation from the appearance of Jesus in the clouds immediately after the Great tribulation.

So.. my questions will never be answered by Josephus' account of the terrible tribulation suffered by the Jews when Jerusalem was besieged and then the temple besieged and finally destroyed by fire .. I'd rather ask Christians.

 

[Zao is life]

"Judas-icer" ? I think the term you are thinking of is Judaizer, i.e people who want to Christians to strictly follow the laws as the Jews do. Anyway that is not why the person is called the son of perdition like Judas was.

The person is called the son of perdition like Judas was is because Satan will influence the person to betray Israel; similar to Judas who was influenced by Satan to betray Jesus.

The great falling away in Christianity will be because many in Christianity will depart Jesus, and believe the Antichrist person is the messiah; before the person reveals himself to be the man of sin - and not the messiah after all.

I think there is a strong possibility the man of sin will be known as a believer in Jesus (see my Post #109 in reply to Dave L) - hence like Judas, a betrayer, a Judas-icer who succeeds in Judaizing Christians into worshiping at that temple and offering sacrifices - hence the "Abomination that causes desolation".

BUT I'm thinking about possibilities but forming no conclusions.

 

[Zao is life]

Why are you removing the original recipients of the Letters, to whom Jesus directly addressed them to, from ANY application? Where does scripture teach you to claim that When Jesus said He was coming as a thief to 1st century Sardis Church, for example - (Revelation 3:3), that He didn't mean it for THEM specifically, and in fact didn't mean it for THEM at all? How were those people supposed to know He didn't mean it for them?

If Jesus is He who was and who is and who is to come and He told John to write the things which he saw and which are and which are to come, then the Revelation is for all Christians across time. He has not come back. When He does He will come as a thief, unexpectedly. he repeats this statement in the midst of John writing about the sixth plague. You restrict Christ to only being able to function in one small period of time.

 

[Zao is life]

We have a problem Houston.

Matthew 24:15-16
Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Luke 21:25
And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luke 21:32
Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.

Two separate events are clearly identified here. The first event, concerns the destruction of the temple. The second event, involves the end of, 'the times of the Gentiles'.

Which of these two events is fulfilled during the era of, 'this generation'. Well that can only be the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. We are now in the time of the Gentiles and the temple was destroyed a long time ago.

This is the only way to understand Matthew 24 and Luke 21 together.

If your understanding of eschatology excludes either Luke 21:32 or Luke 21:25, then it's back to Christianity 101 for you.

You mean of course that there cannot possibly be an Biblical events that became a foreshadow or type of another event to occur at a much later time. Joseph is not a Biblical type of Jesus, Babylon's destruction is not a Biblical type of the destruction of the nations by Christ when He returns, and the Temple sacrifices are not a shadow of things to come, because (according to you) there are no types or foreshadows of anything in the Bible. OR you only choose to see the type when you decide it's allowed to be a type, but when you decide it's not allowed to be a type of something else, then whether or not it is a type, you won't acknowledge it.

 

[BABerean2]

hi one of the admonitions when you see Jerusalem being surrounded to flee was addressed to the disciples and indeed the Christians fled in 70 AD. The abomination of desolation is still future. From the time the daily sacrifices are taken away there shall be a time times and half a time. In Rev the beast gains authority over every tribe tongue kindred and nations for exactly 42 months. he is given this authority from the dragon who is identified as Satan. The man is destroyed and cast into the lake of fire at the 2nd coming. In 2 Thes 2 we see the man of sin is revealed in the Temple declaring himself to be some sort of God and lying signs and wonders are performed and this guy is also destroyed at the coming of the LORD. It is more in line that the AOD is future and then Israel will flee as Jesus warned them to. The kingdom coming will present a stark contrast in the before and after conditions of the earth. Everlasting righteousness, world peace, Ruling with a rod of Iron, Israel saved and born again receiving the new heart promised in so many places. if futurism is wrong and Christ is reigning now we have a problem. I expect a standard never achieved to be achieved when Jesus takes the throne of David. The millennium will be spectacular

The Jews of Jesus day celebrated Hanukkah every year. (See John 10:22)
They well understood the reference to the desecration of the temple by Antiochus Epiphanes, which is found in Matthew 24:15-16. Luke's Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them in Luke 21:20-21.

The Son in Psalm 2 destroys the flawed pots with the rod of Iron, instead of correcting them like a schoolmaster.


On the Day of Pentecost Christ was already both ruler (Lord), and Christ (Messiah) in the verse below.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


Did Christ cast out devils during the first century.
If He did, you will have to take up your problem with Christ in the verse below.

Mat_12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.


We serve a Savior who has already won the victory at Calvary.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


If you can show us mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46, please do so. Also, please explain how they survive "the flaming fire" found at the return of Christ in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

.

 

[klutedavid]

You mean of course that there cannot possibly be an Biblical events that became a foreshadow or type of another event to occur at a much later time. Joseph is not a Biblical type of Jesus, Babylon's destruction is not a Biblical type of the destruction of the nations by Christ when He returns, and the Temple sacrifices are not a shadow of things to come, because (according to you) there are no types or foreshadows of anything in the Bible. OR you only choose to see the type when you decide it's allowed to be a type, but when you decide it's not allowed to be a type of something else, then whether or not it is a type, you won't acknowledge it.

All the shadows were fulfilled by Jesus already. The old covenant was cancelled and we now we await His return. We are firmly in the age of the Gentiles now and it's our turn to screw it all up. Which we are doing very well of course.

Old Testament Israel will never be seen again.

 

[Dave L]

I have read Josephus' account once, long time ago, but reading Josephus does not help. If one studies the Bible instead of Josephus, then the fact comes to light that two Greek words are used for God's temple in the Greek:
1. hieron, which is always referring to the outer court and buildings of the temple, or the temple precincts.
2. naos, which always only refers to the holy court and the most holy place, and once, to the body of Christ when He referred to His body as the temple of God.

The word naos is used in reference to the holy place in Luke 1:9, 21-22 (Zacharias the priest, father of John the Baptist, goes into the holy place to burn incense).

It’s also found in Matthew 23:16-17, 21 and 35 (Jesus speaking about swearing by the naos; and Jesus speaking about when Zacharias son of Barachias was slain by the Jews, who Jesus said was slain between the naos and the altar).

The word naos is also used wherever we read that Jesus referred to His body as the temple of God (Matthew 26:61; 27:40; Mark 14:58; Mark 15:29; John 2:19-21).

Matthew 27:5 tells us that Judas Iscariot threw the silver into the naos.

Matthew 27:51, Mark 15:38 and Luke 23:45 tell us about the veil in the naos (separating the holy place and most holy place) being torn when Jesus died on the cross.

The word naos is never used again in reference to the temple in Jerusalem, or any part of it, after the verses talking about the tearing of the veil in the temple. – instead, it’s used for the bodies of individual Christians (when referring to our bodies as the temple of God), and when referring to the congregation of believers as the temple, and in reference to the heavenly temple (in the Revelation)

– but the Greek word hieron is never used in reference either to the holy place of the Old Testament temple, or to the above.

View attachment 280889

The word naos is also used in Revelation 11:1 where John is told to measure the temple, and in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 in reference to the temple the man of sin will seat himself up in so IF (note: IF) those two verses are exceptions, then they are the only two exceptions to the rule.

There are two parts of Matthew 24 which do not sufficiently place the Great Tribulation in AD66-70 ONLY - the fact that Jesus stated His appearing in the clouds to gather His elect will immediately follow the tribulation that He had been speaking about, and verse 9, where after speaking of the birth-pains of His coming, He tells His disciples that they will become hated of ALL nations for His name sake, and killed. It is in THIS context that Jesus speaks about the Great Tribulation, and the whole passage is joined together into one long sentence by the words "and", therefore", "but" and "for", leaving no room to divide the (time of) Great Tribulation from the appearance of Jesus in the clouds immediately after the Great tribulation.

So.. my questions will never be answered by Josephus' account of the terrible tribulation suffered by the Jews when Jerusalem was besieged and then the temple besieged and finally destroyed by fire .. I'd rather ask Christians.

What is your point? What are you trying to prove?

 

[Dave L]

Are the writings of Josephus holy writ? Did any of his writings make it into the Bible?

If you are a true follower of Prophecy, Josephus shows much of it fulfilled. Just as Jesus says. You understand AFTER fulfillment, not before.

 

[klutedavid]

I think there is a strong possibility the man of sin will be known as a believer in Jesus (see my Post #109 in reply to Dave L) - hence like Judas, a betrayer, a Judas-icer who succeeds in Judaizing Christians into worshiping at that temple and offering sacrifices - hence the "Abomination that causes desolation".

BUT I'm thinking about possibilities but forming no conclusions.

I think it is called, the 'abomination of desolation', rather than, the abomination that causes desolation.

 

[Zao is life]

The biggest problem that dispensational writers have in dealing with eschatology is trying to set dates and define events that as of yet cannot be known with certainty.

I have taught Eschatology on a college level for over 25 years now and I am very careful from committing the grave error many make-- "newspaper exegesis". Trying to make scripture fit current events instead of seeing oif current events match what SCripture says.

IMO though you have just done that yourself here:

Right now things that have fulfilled prophecy either directly or implicitly are:

1. May 14, 1948 when Israel became a nation again after almost a 1900 year diaspora.
2. June of 1967 when Israel regained all of Jerusalem.
3. The preparations for a rebuilt temple ( I have been to Israel and seen the blueprints and the instruments of temple service)

It's only a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy to those who believe that God, and not the Rothschilds and the non-Christian Zionists, brought about the sate of Israel, and who believe that the determination of the Rabbis and political leaders of Israel to fulfill prophecy to the exclusion of Christ their way, is all God's doing.

Still to come before the Tribulation ( I prefer to call it the 70th week of Daniel) in no specific order

1. Russia and her allies invading Israel (Ez. 38-39)

Gog-Magog is only to be fulfilled at the close of the millennium, according to Revelation. So if you conflate Armageddon with Gog-Magog, then your interpretation is muddied.

Gog-Magog occurring at the close of this Age only fits if A-millennialists are correct, and the millennium is not literal. It's the greatest apologetic for A-millennialism yet, if Gog-Magog is to occur at the close of this Age (I'm Pr-millennial so I do not conflate Gog-Magog with Armageddon).

2. a 1 world govt. (the next phase of the fourth beast gentile kingdom)
3. the ten rulers ruling the world after the failure of the 1 world govt. (the ten horns)
4. The rise of the antichrist
5. The rapture of the church
6. Antichrist signing a 7 year covenant with Israel which begins the 70th week of Daniel!

The 70th week of Daniel was fulfilled in the first century, and it was Christ confirming a covenant (the New Covenant). Scripture only talks about the final 3.5 years of this Age, not about the 3.5 years which precede it.

 

[Dave L]

IMO though you have just done that yourself here:

It's only a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy to those who believe that God, and not the Rothschilds and the non-Christian Zionists, brought about the sate of Israel, and who believe that the determination of the Rabbis and political leaders of Israel to fulfill prophecy to the exclusion of Christ their way, is all God's doing.

Gog-Magog is only to be fulfilled at the close of the millennium, according to Revelation. So if you conflate Armageddon with Gog-Magog, then your interpretation is muddied.

View attachment 280890
View attachment 280893
View attachment 280894
View attachment 280895

Gog-Magog occurring at the close of this Age only fits if A-millennialists are correct, and the millennium is not literal. It's the greatest apologetic for A-millennialism yet, if Gog-Magog is to occur at the close of this Age (I'm Pr-millennial so I do not conflate Gog-Magog with Armageddon).



The 70th week of Daniel was fulfilled in the first century, and it was Christ confirming a covenant (the New Covenant). Scripture only talks about the final 3.5 years of this Age, not about the 3.5 years which precede it.

Ther is no millennium. It is a Pharisee doctrine Jesus corrected in the gospels teaching a spiritual kingdom only.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Every Christian who has ever lived up to 200 years ago has died.

Many Christians die every day.

Why doesn't Jesus do something?

You are the one who said Christians didn't die because they did what Jesus said. Like I said. There were many Christians dieing.