Futurist Only Revelation 17: Antichrist Reigns Twice?

[Warrior89]

In this post, I will argue that the Antichrist actually has a first reign, leaves political office, only to return to reign again in a stronger fashion. While this may seem far-fetched, its not as weird as it sounds considering the views of some futurist writers.

Other than the book of Revelation, the book of Daniel talks the most about the ten-horned beast. As a result, I will derive much interpretation from that book.

7 And the angel said to me, “Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.
8 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who live on the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was, and is not, and will come. 9 Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains upon which the woman sits, 10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. 11 The beast which was, and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction. (Revelation 17:7-11)​

I will go verse by verse to make the argument.

7 And the angel said to me, “Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. (Revelation 17:7)
​

And also:

Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten crowns, and on his heads were blasphemous names. (Revelation 13:1b)​

The point here is that the beast only has 7 heads. We will revisit this point later on.

8 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. (Revelation 17:8a)​

The Revelation beast:

• “was” - this demon existed in the past prior to John’s day
• “is not” - this demon was not active during the time of John writing Revelation
• “is about to come up out of the abyss” - this demon will leave the abyss and become active again in the future
• “and go to destruction” - this demon will meet his final end at the return of Christ

The book of Daniel portrays Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175 - 164 B.C.) as a forerunner or type of the future Antichrist.

• Daniel 7 & 8 both portray Antiochus and the Antichrist as a “little” horn
• Daniel 8 predicts the evil reign of Antiochus, only to go on talking as if he is active in the end times as well
• Daniel 11:31 talks about how Antiochus will set up the abomination that causes desolation. But Daniel 12 (and Jesus in Matthew 24) relate this action to an end time event.
• Daniel 11:35-36 transitions from Antiochus to Antichrist without missing a beat
• Daniel 11 demonstrates that both Antichrist and Antiochus have a war with Egypt

Therefore, this refers to the demon who inhabited Antiochus IV Epiphanes and who will inhabit the Antichrist in the end times. J. Paul Tanner and George Eldon Ladd suggest Antiochus as a good candidate for the beast, who was active in the past and will be active in the future.

And those who live on the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was, and is not, and will come. (Revelation 17:8b)​

Some dispensational commentators have said that this refers to the death and resurrection of the beast, also mentioned in Revelation 13 (Robert Thomas and others). While I agree that the Antichrist dies and rises again, this particular verse doesn't seem to be referring to the death and resurrection of the Antichrist. If we consistently apply the time frames, "was, and is not, and will come" has to apply from the perspective of John's day, that is, the time of Revelation's writing. This will be evidenced below.

9 Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains upon which the woman sits, 10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. (Revelation 17:9)​

The beast has seven heads. These are said to represent:

1. 7 mountains
2. 7 kings

Mountains can refer to empires in the Bible. Also, "kings" can refer to kings and kingdoms, interchangeably.

17 ‘These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. (Daniel 7:17)
​

Some may worry about a "double symbolism" here, since this is the interpretation of the vision, not the vision itself. However, just because its the interpretation does not mean it is devoid of metaphorical terms. For example, the angel mentions the prostitute and the beast in the interpretation. The idolatrous city Babylon is not literally a prostitute, and the Antichrist is not literally a wild animal.

"Five have fallen" - that is, five kings/kingdoms had fallen prior to John's day

1) Egypt
2) Assyria
3) Babylon
4) Medo-Persia
5) Greece​

"One is" - that is, one was currently reigning at the time of John

6) Rome​

"the other has not yet come" - that is, the next empire is future from John's perspective

7) Revived Rome
​

"and when he comes, he must remain a little while" - the 7th king will have a limited or brief reign. Other translations attest to this meaning. Furthermore, the pronoun "he" indicates that this 7th king is a particular individual, not just an office.

​

These 7 can't be Roman emperors, because:

• There were more than 5 Roman emperors prior to John writing Revelation
• The beast has characteristics of the previous three empires in Daniel 7, thus stretching back prior to Rome
• The dragon has seven heads and ten horns as well. This would include the idea that the heads span much of history, not just Rome
• The prostitute represents the idolatrous influence that Babylon has had throughout history, not just during the Roman Empire.

Therefore, each of these heads represents the office of the king who heads up that particular empire. After all, each of these empires (and the empires of Daniel 7), each had more than one king! But the kingdoms are also called kings (Daniel 7:17; 23). However, as mentioned above, the 7th king is an individual, because the pronoun "he" is used to refer to him.

So far so good. This wouldn't be so confusing, if it weren't for the next verse.

11 The beast which was, and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.​

The phrase "one of the seven" means that the beast comes from the group of 7. "One" is italicized in NASB because its not in the original text, but is implied. Other times we see this construct in Greek, it seems to refer to a member of that group, with the additional implication that the individual originates from that group. See for example, Peter's denial of Christ in the list of verses above. People accuse him of being one of the disciples, without using the word "one." Namely, he is "of" the disciples. He is one of them, but also originates from them. Other times in Revelation "one of" is used to describe someone from a group, but it is not so here. In any case, the 8th king is one of the seven because he originates from that group and there are only 7 heads.

This has led some futurist commentators to say that the Antichrist more or less has two phases to his rule.

• Robert Thomas says that this refers to the reign of the Antichrist, before and after his resurrection
• Mark Hitchock says the 7th king is the reunited Roman Empire in the form of the ten kings, while the 8th king is the Antichrist's empire
• J. Paul Tanner says something similar to Hitchcock as well
• George Eldon Ladd says that the Antichrist experiences two stages of existence

This is a valid conclusion. However, they don't go far enough. In fact, the language from verse 10-11 suggest that the two phases may be separated by a period of time. Here's why:

• There's no sense in calling the 7th king the 8th king if he merely gains more power, but stays the 7th king. It must refer to some additional or different office.
• The language in verse 8 does not refer to the Antichrist's death and resurrection. Therefore, we can't use that as the separation point between the 7th and 8th king stages. It must be something else (like a break from politics?)
• The 7th king is not said to go to destruction. He reigns a brief time, and apparently stops. It is the 8th that goes to destruction.

Overall, it makes most sense to say that 7th king reigns twice, separated by a period of time. This makes him the 7th king, but also the 8th king. This is supported by language in the remainder of the chapter. The ten kings seem to consolidate power to the Antichrist in two stages, not just one:

12 The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour. 13 These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.

14 These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

15 And he *said to me, “The waters which you saw where the prostitute sits are peoples and multitudes, and nations and languages. 16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the prostitute and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire. 17 For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled. 18 The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.” (Revelation 17:12-18)​

Revelation 17:12-18 seems to repeat that the ten kings give their kingdom to the Antichrist. But does it though? Gaps are common in prophecy (see Zechariah 9:9-10). This repetition may indicate power is transferred in two phases.

In the first instance, only power and authority is given to the beast. In the second instance, "kingdom" (NASB) or "royal power" (ESV) is given to the beast. Furthermore, the first instance does not mention hatred of Babylon as a motivating factor, whereas the second one does.

That's all for now. Let me know your thoughts.

 

[ewq1938]

The beast has seven heads. These are said to represent:

1. 7 mountains
2. 7 kings

Mountains can refer to empires in the Bible. Also, "kings" can refer to kings and kingdoms, interchangeably.

The 7 heads are not 7 mountains AND the 7 kings. They are only 7 mountains.

"Five have fallen" - that is, five kings/kingdoms had fallen prior to John's day

1) Egypt
2) Assyria
3) Babylon
4) Medo-Persia
5) Greece​

"One is" - that is, one was currently reigning at the time of John

6) Rome​

This is why these 7/8 kings cannot also be the 7 heads. The beast with ten horns will rise with all 7 heads intact. If those heads were the 7/8 consecutive kings also, then 6 would be fallen and gone by the timeframe of the GT so John would have seen the ten horned beast rise with only one or two heads but he saw 7 in total.

The ten horned 7 headed beast is the 7th king/kingdom with only the 8th king left to appear and I agree with you that the 7th and 8th is the same person but disagree there is a period where he is "not in office" inbetween the two kingships.

The false prophet has two horns. Horns represents kings so IMO he is king twice and the horns are actually little (young and small horns) so IMO this means the times he is king are short periods of time which I feel are consecutive.

​

 

[d taylor]

-
​

The antichrist is not the beast (out of the sea), the antichrist (beast out of the land) is the false prophet. The antichrist directs worship to the beast (out of the sea) Paul's man of sin.

 

[RandyPNW]

In this post, I will argue that the Antichrist actually has a first reign, leaves political office, only to return to reign again in a stronger fashion. While this may seem far-fetched, its not as weird as it sounds considering the views of some futurist writers.

Other than the book of Revelation, the book of Daniel talks the most about the ten-horned beast. As a result, I will derive much interpretation from that book.

7 And the angel said to me, “Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.
8 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who live on the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was, and is not, and will come. 9 Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains upon which the woman sits, 10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. 11 The beast which was, and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction. (Revelation 17:7-11)​

I will go verse by verse to make the argument.

7 And the angel said to me, “Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. (Revelation 17:7)
​

And also:

Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten crowns, and on his heads were blasphemous names. (Revelation 13:1b)​

The point here is that the beast only has 7 heads. We will revisit this point later on.

8 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. (Revelation 17:8a)​

The Revelation beast:

• “was” - this demon existed in the past prior to John’s day
• “is not” - this demon was not active during the time of John writing Revelation
• “is about to come up out of the abyss” - this demon will leave the abyss and become active again in the future
• “and go to destruction” - this demon will meet his final end at the return of Christ

The book of Daniel portrays Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175 - 164 B.C.) as a forerunner or type of the future Antichrist.

• Daniel 7 & 8 both portray Antiochus and the Antichrist as a “little” horn
• Daniel 8 predicts the evil reign of Antiochus, only to go on talking as if he is active in the end times as well
• Daniel 11:31 talks about how Antiochus will set up the abomination that causes desolation. But Daniel 12 (and Jesus in Matthew 24) relate this action to an end time event.
• Daniel 11:35-36 transitions from Antiochus to Antichrist without missing a beat
• Daniel 11 demonstrates that both Antichrist and Antiochus have a war with Egypt

Therefore, this refers to the demon who inhabited Antiochus IV Epiphanes and who will inhabit the Antichrist in the end times. J. Paul Tanner and George Eldon Ladd suggest Antiochus as a good candidate for the beast, who was active in the past and will be active in the future.

And those who live on the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was, and is not, and will come. (Revelation 17:8b)​

Some dispensational commentators have said that this refers to the death and resurrection of the beast, also mentioned in Revelation 13 (Robert Thomas and others). While I agree that the Antichrist dies and rises again, this particular verse doesn't seem to be referring to the death and resurrection of the Antichrist. If we consistently apply the time frames, "was, and is not, and will come" has to apply from the perspective of John's day, that is, the time of Revelation's writing. This will be evidenced below.

9 Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains upon which the woman sits, 10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. (Revelation 17:9)​

The beast has seven heads. These are said to represent:

1. 7 mountains
2. 7 kings

Mountains can refer to empires in the Bible. Also, "kings" can refer to kings and kingdoms, interchangeably.

17 ‘These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. (Daniel 7:17)
​

Some may worry about a "double symbolism" here, since this is the interpretation of the vision, not the vision itself. However, just because its the interpretation does not mean it is devoid of metaphorical terms. For example, the angel mentions the prostitute and the beast in the interpretation. The idolatrous city Babylon is not literally a prostitute, and the Antichrist is not literally a wild animal.

"Five have fallen" - that is, five kings/kingdoms had fallen prior to John's day

1) Egypt
2) Assyria
3) Babylon
4) Medo-Persia
5) Greece​

"One is" - that is, one was currently reigning at the time of John

6) Rome​

"the other has not yet come" - that is, the next empire is future from John's perspective

7) Revived Rome
​

"and when he comes, he must remain a little while" - the 7th king will have a limited or brief reign. Other translations attest to this meaning. Furthermore, the pronoun "he" indicates that this 7th king is a particular individual, not just an office.

​

These 7 can't be Roman emperors, because:

• There were more than 5 Roman emperors prior to John writing Revelation
• The beast has characteristics of the previous three empires in Daniel 7, thus stretching back prior to Rome
• The dragon has seven heads and ten horns as well. This would include the idea that the heads span much of history, not just Rome
• The prostitute represents the idolatrous influence that Babylon has had throughout history, not just during the Roman Empire.

Therefore, each of these heads represents the office of the king who heads up that particular empire. After all, each of these empires (and the empires of Daniel 7), each had more than one king! But the kingdoms are also called kings (Daniel 7:17; 23). However, as mentioned above, the 7th king is an individual, because the pronoun "he" is used to refer to him.

So far so good. This wouldn't be so confusing, if it weren't for the next verse.

11 The beast which was, and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.​

The phrase "one of the seven" means that the beast comes from the group of 7. "One" is italicized in NASB because its not in the original text, but is implied. Other times we see this construct in Greek, it seems to refer to a member of that group, with the additional implication that the individual originates from that group. See for example, Peter's denial of Christ in the list of verses above. People accuse him of being one of the disciples, without using the word "one." Namely, he is "of" the disciples. He is one of them, but also originates from them. Other times in Revelation "one of" is used to describe someone from a group, but it is not so here. In any case, the 8th king is one of the seven because he originates from that group and there are only 7 heads.

This has led some futurist commentators to say that the Antichrist more or less has two phases to his rule.

• Robert Thomas says that this refers to the reign of the Antichrist, before and after his resurrection
• Mark Hitchock says the 7th king is the reunited Roman Empire in the form of the ten kings, while the 8th king is the Antichrist's empire
• J. Paul Tanner says something similar to Hitchcock as well
• George Eldon Ladd says that the Antichrist experiences two stages of existence

This is a valid conclusion. However, they don't go far enough. In fact, the language from verse 10-11 suggest that the two phases may be separated by a period of time. Here's why:

• There's no sense in calling the 7th king the 8th king if he merely gains more power, but stays the 7th king. It must refer to some additional or different office.
• The language in verse 8 does not refer to the Antichrist's death and resurrection. Therefore, we can't use that as the separation point between the 7th and 8th king stages. It must be something else (like a break from politics?)
• The 7th king is not said to go to destruction. He reigns a brief time, and apparently stops. It is the 8th that goes to destruction.

Overall, it makes most sense to say that 7th king reigns twice, separated by a period of time. This makes him the 7th king, but also the 8th king. This is supported by language in the remainder of the chapter. The ten kings seem to consolidate power to the Antichrist in two stages, not just one:

12 The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour. 13 These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.

14 These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

15 And he *said to me, “The waters which you saw where the prostitute sits are peoples and multitudes, and nations and languages. 16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the prostitute and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire. 17 For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled. 18 The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.” (Revelation 17:12-18)​

Revelation 17:12-18 seems to repeat that the ten kings give their kingdom to the Antichrist. But does it though? Gaps are common in prophecy (see Zechariah 9:9-10). This repetition may indicate power is transferred in two phases.

In the first instance, only power and authority is given to the beast. In the second instance, "kingdom" (NASB) or "royal power" (ESV) is given to the beast. Furthermore, the first instance does not mention hatred of Babylon as a motivating factor, whereas the second one does.

That's all for now. Let me know your thoughts.

Man, I've had these same thoughts for a long while now! Thanks for sharing! No, I have much the same thoughts as the positions you presented. Can't improve on them right now. I'll try to revisit as the thread develops, hopefully.

 

[Douggg]

@Warrior89

Hi Warrior89, welcome to the forum.

Let me make a point to start out. Do you agree that being a Senator is different from being President? Two different function roles.

The point is - being the Antichrist is not the same as being the beast - although it is the same person at different times in his career. Being the Antichrist is to be the King of Israel - instead of and against Jesus, the rightful King of Israel.

So the person has to be a Jew.

_______________________________________________________
Discard the notion that the 7 kings are 7 kingdoms, because the four beasts in Daniel 7 your base chapter starts with Babylon - not Egypt or Assyria. The fourth kingdom of the ten kings and little horn has a Roman Empire flavor to it.

The 7 kings and the 10 kings are of that Roman Empire like kingdom.

_______________________________________________________

The ten kings will already be part of the end times fourth kingdom - the EU. The
little horn person comes up among them - my suspicion that the little horn person is Zelenski of Urkraine - a Jew. Sometime after Ukraine gets full EU membership status - in the works, being fast tracked as we speak.

The EU has many more than ten nations - so the group of ten of leaders must be under an alliance of them in a different way. I think as a EU governing body of
some sorts... yet to be developed. The little horn person becomes leader over that governing body.

________________________________________________________

Zelenski's (although it is not for sure that Zelenski is the guy) resistance to Russia is an important development - as the 7 years following Gog/Magog are the same 7 years of Daniel 9:27.

Russia's aggression - I think is concerning to the EU, who also gets some of it energy supplies from Russia.

__________________________________________________________

little horn person (king 7 of the Julio-Claudian blood line) - becomes the leader of the ten EU leaders pact.

The little horn person stands up in Daniel 8:23, prepares to go to war - at the time of Gog/Magog, it appears.

The little horn person stages his EU forces in Greece as a show of force.

Gog/Magog takes place. God destroys Gog's army. The little horns' EU army enters the middle east in the aftermath, on grounds of being peace keepers. But the underlying motive for the ten EU leaders will be to grab possession of the middle east oil.

_______________________________________________________

The Jews, many of whom expect the messianic age begins after Gog/Magog - will think the little horn person is the messiah. The little horn person will picture himself the same way. "Can one man save the world" you tube video about Zelenski.

The false prophet - appears - claiming to be Elijah and anoints the little horn person the King of Israel. Presto ! The person is now the Antichrist.

But was not before. Instead was king 7 of the fourth kingdom, the Roman Empire... not King of Israel. "We have no king but Caesar" shouted the Jews... a forshadowing of the little horn, of the Julio-Claudian Caesar family blood line.

____________________________________________________________

Three years go by. The Antichrist, King of Israel, coming in his own name, not God's choice to be their king - goes into the temple, sits, claiming to be God. Revealing himself as the man of sin - and not the messiah after all.

The Jews, mortified, reject him as their King - ending his time as the Antichrist.

So stop referring to the person as the Antichrist at this point - like all those bible prophecy commentators you mentioned mistakenly do. Being the beast and being the Antichrist - is as different as being Senator and President in my analogy.

____________________________________________________________

God, angered by the person's act, has him killed by strangers to him. i.e. the person will be assassinated, Ezekiel 28:1-10. The mortal wound, that will be healed.

God, in disdain for the person, does not let his soul remain in hell, nor is the person laid to rest in a tomb. Isaiah 14:18-20.

The world will see the person sit up in his casket - dumbfounded by it. was, is not, yet is.

The unclean spirit of the actual literal beast of the garden of eden ascends out of the bottomless pit - and enters the person. Who now becomes the beast - who was, and is not, Revelation 17:8a. that was, is not, yet is, Revelation 17::8b

King 7 must continue a short space, Revelation 17:10, as the beast King 8, for 42 months, Revelation 13:5. As dictator of the EU, kingdom of the ten kings, who hand their kingdom over to him, Revelation 17:17.

The seven kings bloodline is:
Julius Caesar
Augustus
Tiberius
Caligula
Nero

little horn - king 7
beast - king 8

None of the seven kings is as the function of being the Antichrist. Being the Antichrist is only for when the person is the King of Israel.

The 7 years begin when, he as the Antichrist, has the law read to the nation of Israel from the temple mount, following Gog/Magog. A requirement to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant on a 7 year cycle set by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

I hope this post gets you started on the right track and what to look for.

 

[Douggg]

The 7 heads are not 7 mountains AND the 7 kings. They are only 7 mountains.

Mountains do not have crowns - like in Revelation 12:3.

In Revelation 17 and Revelation 12, Satan represents the beast - because it is not until Revelation 13 that the beast comes out of the bottomless pit. Satan does not represent the beast in Revelation 13. The Revelation 13 beast represents a person, a man, and his kingdom.

The seven heads have crowns in Revelation 12:3 because the little horn person king 7 will have come to power right before the 7 years begins. King 7 as king fulfills the prophecy of the seven kings.

The 7 years are in Revelation 12 as the 1260 days of Revelation 12:6, followed by the time/times/half time of Revelation 12:14.

The beast does not come out of the bottomless pit until king 7 is assassinated and brought back to life by God in disdain for the person. The beast in the bottomless pit is the garden of eden serpent beast, now an unclean spirit.

The unclean spirit of the beast enters the mortally wounded but healed - king 7 - who as king 8 becomes the namesake of the beast in the bottomless pit. And is called the beast in the remaining of the 42 months of the 7 years.

 

[Douggg]

How to understand the visuals in Revelation 17, Revelation 12, Revelation 13.

 

[Emun]

@Warrior89
The first head is Babylon, not Egypt. See:

The angel gives us the interpretation and explains that the seven mountains represent seven kings (Revelation 17:9-10). This is metaphorical language. The beast with the 7 heads and 10 horns is meant to show the four beasts (and the statue) from the book of Daniel as one. The first beast (lion/gold) from Daniel has 1 head, the second beast (bear/silver) has 1 head, the third beast (leopard/bronze) has 4 heads and the fourth beast has 1 head and 10 horns (all 10 horns are only on this 1 head). Taken together, the beasts have 7 heads and 10 horns. Daniel helps us and explains that the first head is the Babylonian Empire (Daniel 2:38). The angel of Revelation tells us that five of the heads have already fallen and that the sixth head existed at the time Revelation was written. The sixth head must therefore be the Roman Empire. So the first head is Babylon and the sixth is Rome. And we know the four heads between Babylon and Rome have already fallen. With these clues it is now very easy for us to find out who the four heads are. The kingdoms that ruled over Israel chronologically between these two kingdoms are Medo-Persia, Macedonia, Ptolemaic and Seleucid.

Revelation 17:8 is a reference to Revelation 13:3. The head that was wounded isn't a person, it's a kingdom. It's the 7th head. Which is called in other passages of the book "the beast" (with the ten horns). The 7th Kingdom didn't exist before the 6th, it existed after, but was wounded, that means it lost his power and splited into at least 10 Nations, which are the 10 horns.

The Roman Empire cannot be the 7th head because it is the 6th. The 6th head belongs to a completely different beast/material, namely the leopard/bronze (3rd beast). The 7th head is the head of the 4th beast, so it is a completely different beast/material, with a completely different culture and language. The 3rd beast with the 4 heads was Macedonian, Ptolemaic, Seleucid and Roman. All 4 shared the same language and almost the same culture.

To find out who the 7th head is, we need to consider the 2 requirements it must have to be a head.
1. it must have destroyed the previous beast. The 1st beast was destroyed by the 2nd beast, the 2nd beast was destroyed by the 3rd beast. So the 4th beast must have destroyed the 3rd beast.
2. it must have conquered Israel. All six heads conquered Israel and that means the 7th kingdom must have done so.

With these 2 requirements, only 2 candidates remain. The Rashidun or Turkish Empire. The Rashidun Empire didn't destroy Roman Empire but it was the Empire that conquered Israel after the Romans. Turkish Empire conquered Israel and it destroyed the Roman Empire in 1453.

Both of these empires have fallen in the past, and both of these empires have divided into at least 10 nations. That means that one of these two empires will return.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 17:8 is a reference to Revelation 13:3. The head that was wounded isn't a person, it's a kingdom.

The composite overall appearance of the beast in Revelation 13:2 is that of a kingdom, yes. But....

The head in the visual in Revelation 13:3 that John sees as mortally wounded but healed is a man. The same man who starts out as the little horn of Daniel 7.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Same as the little horn person....

Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The ten kings, as the ten horns, in the visual in Revelation 13:1 have crowns because they will rule with the beast. And hand their kingdom (the EU) over to the beast - the man who will be mortally wounded but healed....

Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

The composite make up of the beast (the kingdom of the beast man) in Revelation 13:2 indicates that the EU, the kingdom of the beast man, will have gained control over the territories - once part of the Babylonian, Medo-Persia, Greek kingdoms - i.e. the EU will control all of the middle east oil.... until the words of God are fulfilled regarding the beast.

 

[Lulav]

You might want to look into the history of Nebuchadnezzar as well as Nimrod who is said in the Bible to be the first King. His name indicates Rebel or rebelliousness.

The LORD GOD destroyed the earth and its inhabatants for rebellion and soon after the great-grandson of Noah comes along and incites the people to build a tower that will reach to heaven. Thus having the tallest 'mountain' they could escape upon if he chose to do it again.

He started the One World Order.

One world Government
With
One leader
With
One language
and
One Religion

 

[tranquil]

In this post, I will argue that the Antichrist actually has a first reign, leaves political office, only to return to reign again in a stronger fashion. While this may seem far-fetched, its not as weird as it sounds considering the views of some futurist writers.

Other than the book of Revelation, the book of Daniel talks the most about the ten-horned beast. As a result, I will derive much interpretation from that book.

7 And the angel said to me, “Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.
8 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who live on the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was, and is not, and will come. 9 Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains upon which the woman sits, 10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. 11 The beast which was, and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction. (Revelation 17:7-11)​

I will go verse by verse to make the argument.

7 And the angel said to me, “Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. (Revelation 17:7)
​

And also:

Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten crowns, and on his heads were blasphemous names. (Revelation 13:1b)​

The point here is that the beast only has 7 heads. We will revisit this point later on.

8 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. (Revelation 17:8a)​

The Revelation beast:

• “was” - this demon existed in the past prior to John’s day
• “is not” - this demon was not active during the time of John writing Revelation
• “is about to come up out of the abyss” - this demon will leave the abyss and become active again in the future
• “and go to destruction” - this demon will meet his final end at the return of Christ

The book of Daniel portrays Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175 - 164 B.C.) as a forerunner or type of the future Antichrist.

• Daniel 7 & 8 both portray Antiochus and the Antichrist as a “little” horn
• Daniel 8 predicts the evil reign of Antiochus, only to go on talking as if he is active in the end times as well
• Daniel 11:31 talks about how Antiochus will set up the abomination that causes desolation. But Daniel 12 (and Jesus in Matthew 24) relate this action to an end time event.
• Daniel 11:35-36 transitions from Antiochus to Antichrist without missing a beat
• Daniel 11 demonstrates that both Antichrist and Antiochus have a war with Egypt

Therefore, this refers to the demon who inhabited Antiochus IV Epiphanes and who will inhabit the Antichrist in the end times. J. Paul Tanner and George Eldon Ladd suggest Antiochus as a good candidate for the beast, who was active in the past and will be active in the future.

And those who live on the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was, and is not, and will come. (Revelation 17:8b)​

Some dispensational commentators have said that this refers to the death and resurrection of the beast, also mentioned in Revelation 13 (Robert Thomas and others). While I agree that the Antichrist dies and rises again, this particular verse doesn't seem to be referring to the death and resurrection of the Antichrist. If we consistently apply the time frames, "was, and is not, and will come" has to apply from the perspective of John's day, that is, the time of Revelation's writing. This will be evidenced below.

9 Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains upon which the woman sits, 10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. (Revelation 17:9)​

The beast has seven heads. These are said to represent:

1. 7 mountains
2. 7 kings

Mountains can refer to empires in the Bible. Also, "kings" can refer to kings and kingdoms, interchangeably.

17 ‘These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. (Daniel 7:17)
​

Some may worry about a "double symbolism" here, since this is the interpretation of the vision, not the vision itself. However, just because its the interpretation does not mean it is devoid of metaphorical terms. For example, the angel mentions the prostitute and the beast in the interpretation. The idolatrous city Babylon is not literally a prostitute, and the Antichrist is not literally a wild animal.

"Five have fallen" - that is, five kings/kingdoms had fallen prior to John's day

1) Egypt
2) Assyria
3) Babylon
4) Medo-Persia
5) Greece​

"One is" - that is, one was currently reigning at the time of John

6) Rome​

"the other has not yet come" - that is, the next empire is future from John's perspective

7) Revived Rome
​

"and when he comes, he must remain a little while" - the 7th king will have a limited or brief reign. Other translations attest to this meaning. Furthermore, the pronoun "he" indicates that this 7th king is a particular individual, not just an office.

​

These 7 can't be Roman emperors, because:

• There were more than 5 Roman emperors prior to John writing Revelation
• The beast has characteristics of the previous three empires in Daniel 7, thus stretching back prior to Rome
• The dragon has seven heads and ten horns as well. This would include the idea that the heads span much of history, not just Rome
• The prostitute represents the idolatrous influence that Babylon has had throughout history, not just during the Roman Empire.

Therefore, each of these heads represents the office of the king who heads up that particular empire. After all, each of these empires (and the empires of Daniel 7), each had more than one king! But the kingdoms are also called kings (Daniel 7:17; 23). However, as mentioned above, the 7th king is an individual, because the pronoun "he" is used to refer to him.

So far so good. This wouldn't be so confusing, if it weren't for the next verse.

11 The beast which was, and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.​

The phrase "one of the seven" means that the beast comes from the group of 7. "One" is italicized in NASB because its not in the original text, but is implied. Other times we see this construct in Greek, it seems to refer to a member of that group, with the additional implication that the individual originates from that group. See for example, Peter's denial of Christ in the list of verses above. People accuse him of being one of the disciples, without using the word "one." Namely, he is "of" the disciples. He is one of them, but also originates from them. Other times in Revelation "one of" is used to describe someone from a group, but it is not so here. In any case, the 8th king is one of the seven because he originates from that group and there are only 7 heads.

This has led some futurist commentators to say that the Antichrist more or less has two phases to his rule.

• Robert Thomas says that this refers to the reign of the Antichrist, before and after his resurrection
• Mark Hitchock says the 7th king is the reunited Roman Empire in the form of the ten kings, while the 8th king is the Antichrist's empire
• J. Paul Tanner says something similar to Hitchcock as well
• George Eldon Ladd says that the Antichrist experiences two stages of existence

This is a valid conclusion. However, they don't go far enough. In fact, the language from verse 10-11 suggest that the two phases may be separated by a period of time. Here's why:

• There's no sense in calling the 7th king the 8th king if he merely gains more power, but stays the 7th king. It must refer to some additional or different office.
• The language in verse 8 does not refer to the Antichrist's death and resurrection. Therefore, we can't use that as the separation point between the 7th and 8th king stages. It must be something else (like a break from politics?)
• The 7th king is not said to go to destruction. He reigns a brief time, and apparently stops. It is the 8th that goes to destruction.

Overall, it makes most sense to say that 7th king reigns twice, separated by a period of time. This makes him the 7th king, but also the 8th king. This is supported by language in the remainder of the chapter. The ten kings seem to consolidate power to the Antichrist in two stages, not just one:

12 The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour. 13 These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.

14 These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

15 And he *said to me, “The waters which you saw where the prostitute sits are peoples and multitudes, and nations and languages. 16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the prostitute and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire. 17 For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled. 18 The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.” (Revelation 17:12-18)​

Revelation 17:12-18 seems to repeat that the ten kings give their kingdom to the Antichrist. But does it though? Gaps are common in prophecy (see Zechariah 9:9-10). This repetition may indicate power is transferred in two phases.

In the first instance, only power and authority is given to the beast. In the second instance, "kingdom" (NASB) or "royal power" (ESV) is given to the beast. Furthermore, the first instance does not mention hatred of Babylon as a motivating factor, whereas the second one does.

That's all for now. Let me know your thoughts.

I think it would be simpler to approach this from Daniel 7.

The 4 beasts from the sea (lion, bear, leopard, 4th beast) are all future, coming up at the start of the Trumpets/ start of the great tribulation.

The #6 king of Rev 17 is the Leopard (not the 4th beast!, not the Daniel 7 Little Horn!) that is given dominion in Daniel 7:6. During this phase, the 10 horns don't have power.

Then, the 4th beast comes and tramples the world, removing the dominion of the Leopard. (Think of it from the 4th beast kingdom perspective - the bear took over 3 kingdoms, the leopard becomes the 'christ' and is the '4th kingdom' as it is comprised of 4 parts, then the 'real' 4th beast comes, & defeats the 4th beast of the Leopard kingdom, to become the fake 'real' millenial kingdom).

The Daniel 7 Little Horn is the messiah 'horn' (horn means the descendant of David on the throne, see Psalm 132:11-17). This 'horn' has now 'defeated' the 'antichrist' kingdom (which has 4 parts, and the Leopard king ruled the 4th part to be a decoy 4th Beast kingdom).

This Dan 7 Little Horn is the #7 king of Rev 17.

Now, you don't have to understand anything but these verses

Dan 7

11 Then I kept watching because of the arrogant words the horn was speaking. As I continued to watch, the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire.

12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was removed, but they were granted an extension of life for a season and a time.​

What beast is it that gets killed? It's the Daniel 7 4th Beast.

7After this, as I watched in my vision in the night, suddenly a fourth beast appeared, and it was terrifying—dreadful and extremely strong—with large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed; then it trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the beasts before it, and it had ten horns. 8While I was contemplating the horns, suddenly another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like those of a man and a mouth that spoke words of arrogance.
​

What are the 'rest of the beasts'? The lion, the bear, and the leopard.

Who is given an 'extension of life'? The lion, bear, and leopard, and not the 4th Beast.

The 'season and a time' of Daniel 7:12 is Dan 9's 70 weeks. Literally 490 days.

that's why the time elements in Revelation are: 5 months (Rev 9:5) , hour, day, month, year (Rev 9:15), 1260 days (Rev 11:3), 3.5 days (Rev 11:11), and x amount for the 7 bowls of wrath.

150 days + .25 + 1 + 30 + 365.25 + 1260 + 3.5 + ... 490 days =

150 (1st Woe) + 396.5 + 1260 + 3.5 (2nd Woe) + 490 (3rd Woe) = 2300 days of Daniel 8:14.

The Leopard that is given dominion is the one that is given an extension = the resurrection of Rev 13.

Put differently, the Rev 17 #6 king is the Leopard. The #7 King is the Daniel 7 Little Horn.

The Daniel 7 Little Horn confirms the covenant. Then we have the 2 witnesses for 1260 days.

The Dan 7 Little Horn is killed after these 1260 days.

The Leopard is given an extension of life = #8 King is related to the #6 King. Maybe the #6 King resurrecting.

 

[dfw69]

In this post, I will argue that the Antichrist actually has a first reign, leaves political office, only to return to reign again in a stronger fashion. While this may seem far-fetched, its not as weird as it sounds considering the views of some futurist writers.

Other than the book of Revelation, the book of Daniel talks the most about the ten-horned beast. As a result, I will derive much interpretation from that book.

7 And the angel said to me, “Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.​

8 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who live on the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was, and is not, and will come. 9 Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains upon which the woman sits, 10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. 11 The beast which was, and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction. (Revelation 17:7-11)​

I will go verse by verse to make the argument.

7 And the angel said to me, “Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. (Revelation 17:7)​

​

And also:

Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten crowns, and on his heads were blasphemous names. (Revelation 13:1b)​

The point here is that the beast only has 7 heads. We will revisit this point later on.

8 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. (Revelation 17:8a)​

The Revelation beast:

• “was” - this demon existed in the past prior to John’s day
• “is not” - this demon was not active during the time of John writing Revelation
• “is about to come up out of the abyss” - this demon will leave the abyss and become active again in the future
• “and go to destruction” - this demon will meet his final end at the return of Christ

The book of Daniel portrays Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175 - 164 B.C.) as a forerunner or type of the future Antichrist.

• Daniel 7 & 8 both portray Antiochus and the Antichrist as a “little” horn
• Daniel 8 predicts the evil reign of Antiochus, only to go on talking as if he is active in the end times as well
• Daniel 11:31 talks about how Antiochus will set up the abomination that causes desolation. But Daniel 12 (and Jesus in Matthew 24) relate this action to an end time event.
• Daniel 11:35-36 transitions from Antiochus to Antichrist without missing a beat
• Daniel 11 demonstrates that both Antichrist and Antiochus have a war with Egypt

Therefore, this refers to the demon who inhabited Antiochus IV Epiphanes and who will inhabit the Antichrist in the end times. J. Paul Tanner and George Eldon Ladd suggest Antiochus as a good candidate for the beast, who was active in the past and will be active in the future.

And those who live on the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was, and is not, and will come. (Revelation 17:8b)​

Some dispensational commentators have said that this refers to the death and resurrection of the beast, also mentioned in Revelation 13 (Robert Thomas and others). While I agree that the Antichrist dies and rises again, this particular verse doesn't seem to be referring to the death and resurrection of the Antichrist. If we consistently apply the time frames, "was, and is not, and will come" has to apply from the perspective of John's day, that is, the time of Revelation's writing. This will be evidenced below.

​

9 Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains upon which the woman sits, 10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. (Revelation 17:9)​

The beast has seven heads. These are said to represent:

1. 7 mountains
2. 7 kings

Mountains can refer to empires in the Bible. Also, "kings" can refer to kings and kingdoms, interchangeably.

17 ‘These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. (Daniel 7:17)​

​

Some may worry about a "double symbolism" here, since this is the interpretation of the vision, not the vision itself. However, just because its the interpretation does not mean it is devoid of metaphorical terms. For example, the angel mentions the prostitute and the beast in the interpretation. The idolatrous city Babylon is not literally a prostitute, and the Antichrist is not literally a wild animal.

"Five have fallen" - that is, five kings/kingdoms had fallen prior to John's day

1) Egypt​

2) Assyria​

3) Babylon​

4) Medo-Persia​

5) Greece​

"One is" - that is, one was currently reigning at the time of John

6) Rome​

"the other has not yet come" - that is, the next empire is future from John's perspective

7) Revived Rome​

​

"and when he comes, he must remain a little while" - the 7th king will have a limited or brief reign. Other translations attest to this meaning. Furthermore, the pronoun "he" indicates that this 7th king is a particular individual, not just an office.

​

These 7 can't be Roman emperors, because:

• There were more than 5 Roman emperors prior to John writing Revelation
• The beast has characteristics of the previous three empires in Daniel 7, thus stretching back prior to Rome
• The dragon has seven heads and ten horns as well. This would include the idea that the heads span much of history, not just Rome
• The prostitute represents the idolatrous influence that Babylon has had throughout history, not just during the Roman Empire.

Therefore, each of these heads represents the office of the king who heads up that particular empire. After all, each of these empires (and the empires of Daniel 7), each had more than one king! But the kingdoms are also called kings (Daniel 7:17; 23). However, as mentioned above, the 7th king is an individual, because the pronoun "he" is used to refer to him.

So far so good. This wouldn't be so confusing, if it weren't for the next verse.

11 The beast which was, and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.​

The phrase "one of the seven" means that the beast comes from the group of 7. "One" is italicized in NASB because its not in the original text, but is implied. Other times we see this construct in Greek, it seems to refer to a member of that group, with the additional implication that the individual originates from that group. See for example, Peter's denial of Christ in the list of verses above. People accuse him of being one of the disciples, without using the word "one." Namely, he is "of" the disciples. He is one of them, but also originates from them. Other times in Revelation "one of" is used to describe someone from a group, but it is not so here. In any case, the 8th king is one of the seven because he originates from that group and there are only 7 heads.

This has led some futurist commentators to say that the Antichrist more or less has two phases to his rule.

• Robert Thomas says that this refers to the reign of the Antichrist, before and after his resurrection
• Mark Hitchock says the 7th king is the reunited Roman Empire in the form of the ten kings, while the 8th king is the Antichrist's empire
• J. Paul Tanner says something similar to Hitchcock as well
• George Eldon Ladd says that the Antichrist experiences two stages of existence

This is a valid conclusion. However, they don't go far enough. In fact, the language from verse 10-11 suggest that the two phases may be separated by a period of time. Here's why:

• There's no sense in calling the 7th king the 8th king if he merely gains more power, but stays the 7th king. It must refer to some additional or different office.
• The language in verse 8 does not refer to the Antichrist's death and resurrection. Therefore, we can't use that as the separation point between the 7th and 8th king stages. It must be something else (like a break from politics?)
• The 7th king is not said to go to destruction. He reigns a brief time, and apparently stops. It is the 8th that goes to destruction.

Overall, it makes most sense to say that 7th king reigns twice, separated by a period of time. This makes him the 7th king, but also the 8th king. This is supported by language in the remainder of the chapter. The ten kings seem to consolidate power to the Antichrist in two stages, not just one:

12 The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour. 13 These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.​

​

14 These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”​

​

15 And he *said to me, “The waters which you saw where the prostitute sits are peoples and multitudes, and nations and languages. 16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the prostitute and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire. 17 For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled. 18 The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.” (Revelation 17:12-18)​

Revelation 17:12-18 seems to repeat that the ten kings give their kingdom to the Antichrist. But does it though? Gaps are common in prophecy (see Zechariah 9:9-10). This repetition may indicate power is transferred in two phases.

In the first instance, only power and authority is given to the beast. In the second instance, "kingdom" (NASB) or "royal power" (ESV) is given to the beast. Furthermore, the first instance does not mention hatred of Babylon as a motivating factor, whereas the second one does.

That's all for now. Let me know your thoughts.

The antichrist will reign first over the 10 horns which are the 10 tribes of Israel that will form during the false messianic age

They have one mind which is to destroy mystery Babylon which has reign over them during the false messianic age

Then they will seek to unite judah kingdom with the help of the false prophet of Judah and the 10 tribes of Israel thus form the beast with 2 horns

They will wage war against the lamb but the lamb will defeat them

Note it seems to me that the 10 horns are just territorial until the antichrist comes and forms 10 kingdoms out of that existing territory

 

[ewq1938]

The antichrist will reign first over the 10 horns which are the 10 tribes of Israel that will form during the false messianic age

They have one mind which is to destroy mystery Babylon which has reign over them during the false messianic age

Then they will seek to unite judah kingdom with the help of the false prophet of Judah and the 10 tribes of Israel thus form the beast with 2 horns

They will wage war against the lamb but the lamb will defeat them

Note it seems to me that the 10 horns are just territorial until the antichrist comes and forms 10 kingdoms out of that existing territory

The horns don't even exist until the beast rises so they are entirely future kings/kingdoms.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

 

[dfw69]

The horns don't even exist until the beast rises so they are entirely future kings/kingdoms.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Yes I agree

 

[keras]

The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour. 13 These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.

Those ten 'horns', will be the ten Presidents of the ten world regions of the One World Government. Which will be established soon after the forthcoming Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
These regions have already been decided and the10 Leaders will be appointed quickly, in order to re-establish law and order.

But another powerful and charismatic man will rise and become the overall Leader. Daniel 7:23-24, Revelation 17:12-13
He will rule the world for the final 42 months of this age. Excepting for the far away place of safety, where God's faithful people will be. Rev 12:14

 

[ewq1938]

Those ten 'horns', will be the ten Presidents of the ten world regions of the One World Government. Which will be established soon after the forthcoming Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
These regions have already been decided and the10 Leaders will be appointed quickly, in order to re-establish law and order.

But another powerful and charismatic man will rise and become the overall Leader. Daniel 7:23-24, Revelation 17:12-13
He will rule the world for the final 32 months of this age. Excepting for the far away place of safety, where God's faithful people will be. Rev 12:14

All events of Rev 12 happen before the GT starts. The last verse of the chp is about satan starting the GT. There is no place of safety for anyone during the GT.

 

[keras]

All events of Rev 12 happen before the GT starts. The last verse of the chp is about satan starting the GT. There is no place of safety for anyone during the GT.

Revelation 12:6 and 14 specifically says there will be a place of safety for the Lord's faithful people. On earth. For the 42 months.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 12:6 and 14 specifically says there will be a place of safety for the Lord's faithful people. On earth. For the 42 months.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The faithful are the targets of the GT. They are not protected in a safe place but rather targeted and killed. Some survive but many are killed as the 5th seal and Rev 13 and 19 mention. What happened in Rev 12 is before the GT begins. Satan's failure to harm the woman is why he starts the GT war against the church.

 

[Timtofly]

All events of Rev 12 happen before the GT starts. The last verse of the chp is about satan starting the GT. There is no place of safety for anyone during the GT.

How is the GT the same as the AoD? The AoD is set up in Revelation 13.

Jacob's trouble is the first 6 Trumpets. That is the GT.

 

[ewq1938]

How is the GT the same as the AoD? The AoD is set up in Revelation 13.

Jacob's trouble is the first 6 Trumpets. That is the GT.

The AoD is the AC and the GT starts when the 6th trump sounds.