Rapture and Fetuses

[Rik Brooks]

OK, I can buy into all children being caught up in the rapture, but what about fetuses? What about that fetus that will be born the next day? Will they have to suffer the tribulation because they were born a day late? Will Christ just take them and the mother, if not raptured herself will see her womb vacated? (boy, THAT would be a shock)

I'm really not trying to argue, this doesn't pertain to me, I'll be caught up in the clouds. It's just a curiosity.

Rik the Seeker

 

[ViaCrucis]

It's worth noting that "the Rapture" is a non-standard Christian belief. That is, it's simply not something the majority of Christians believe.

Though if translated to be talking about the resurrection of the dead it's a fair enough question. At the resurrection what will happen to the child in the womb? The answer to that question isn't available to us. The resurrection, of course, isn't about Christ taking anyone away, but the resurrection of the body and the transformation of both the resurrected dead and those who are alive from mortal to immortal. Scripture never addresses this idea, and I am not aware of anything in Christian teaching that really addresses this idea--so we must simply submit that this, like many things, is left unknown and we simply trust in God to do what He will do.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Optimax]

OK, I can buy into all children being caught up in the rapture, but what about fetuses? What about that fetus that will be born the next day? Will they have to suffer the tribulation because they were born a day late? Will Christ just take them and the mother, if not raptured herself will see her womb vacated? (boy, THAT would be a shock)

I'm really not trying to argue, this doesn't pertain to me, I'll be caught up in the clouds. It's just a curiosity.

Rik the Seeker

At the Rapture only born again (Rom 10:9) people are taken. A born again (Rom 10:9) pregnant lady being caught up so would the child she bore. Therefore their would be no babies born "a day late", a week late, a month late, etc.

A pregnant lady that is not born again (Rom 10:9) would continue with her pregnancy, give birth assuming that she did not die in an accident or some other way before giving birth.

I am amazed at the people who deny an event that is so clearly and emphatically given "by the word of The Lord".

although many do not believe other thing that the Lord said/says either.

 

[Rik Brooks]

So here we go again. I can't understand how the Rapture (or whatever you want to call the event described in I Thessalonians 4:13-17) can be 'interpreted'. It's pretty clear. First the dead in Christ then the living.

Now I see that others don't see it that way and reasonably so. Looks like I need to look into this as well.

However, CryptoLutheran, I guess I have to just accept what you say. There appears to be no Biblical answer so, since I'm not a fetus in the womb I guess I'll just accept it as one of those curiousities that I'll be interested in seeing how it plays out.

Thanks for your answer (and for another question for me.)

Rik the Seeker

It's worth noting that "the Rapture" is a non-standard Christian belief. That is, it's simply not something the majority of Christians believe.

Though if translated to be talking about the resurrection of the dead it's a fair enough question. At the resurrection what will happen to the child in the womb? The answer to that question isn't available to us. The resurrection, of course, isn't about Christ taking anyone away, but the resurrection of the body and the transformation of both the resurrected dead and those who are alive from mortal to immortal. Scripture never addresses this idea, and I am not aware of anything in Christian teaching that really addresses this idea--so we must simply submit that this, like many things, is left unknown and we simply trust in God to do what He will do.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[yeshuasavedme]

OK, I can buy into all children being caught up in the rapture, but what about fetuses? What about that fetus that will be born the next day? Will they have to suffer the tribulation because they were born a day late? Will Christ just take them and the mother, if not raptured herself will see her womb vacated? (boy, THAT would be a shock)

I'm really not trying to argue, this doesn't pertain to me, I'll be caught up in the clouds. It's just a curiosity.

Rik the Seeker

A fetus is a baby. If
A pregnant mother who is raptured is regenerated in body in the twinkling of an eye, and since she is a believer, her baby is also regenerated in body and ascends with her.
If a Believing woman is pregnant and dies before the rapture, baby in womb, she and her baby will both come with the LORD from heaven, and receive their regenerated bodies.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The babies of unbelievers will not be raptured. If only one parent is a believer, the baby will be raptured.

 

[Wgw]

We should simply reject the idea of "the Rapture" as an innovation owing to themprovate revelations experienced by the Plymouth Brethren in the 19th century.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

We should simply reject the idea of "the Rapture" as an innovation owing to themprovate revelations experienced by the Plymouth Brethren in the 19th century.

We should study the Living Oracles given only to the namesake people of the New Man name to rehearse, until every jot and tittle is fulfilled, to be instructed in the Doctrine of Messiah's Person and work.
The rapture is taught in the Living Oracles.

 

[BobRyan]

OK, I can buy into all children being caught up in the rapture, but what about fetuses? What about that fetus that will be born the next day? Will they have to suffer the tribulation because they were born a day late? Will Christ just take them and the mother, if not raptured herself will see her womb vacated? (boy, THAT would be a shock)

I'm really not trying to argue, this doesn't pertain to me, I'll be caught up in the clouds. It's just a curiosity.

Rik the Seeker

Turns out - that is not a problem at all - because Matt 24 says the rapture happens "immediately after the great tribulation... he will gather His elect" -- all the saints taken at once - right at the Rev 19-20 2nd coming event where the "First resurrection" starts the countdown of the 1000 years millennium in Rev 20 - and also marks the point of the 2nd coming when the saints are taken to heaven according to Christ's John 14 promise. Those babies will be in heaven with their Christian parents.

 

[BobRyan]

So here we go again. I can't understand how the Rapture (or whatever you want to call the event described in I Thessalonians 4:13-17) can be 'interpreted'. It's pretty clear. First the dead in Christ then the living.

True - that is the rapture. But it happens at the 1Thess 4 second coming -- which the Bible always calls the "coming of the Lord" and also "his appearing". John 14 "I will come again"

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[BobRyan]

. There appears to be no Biblical answer so, since I'm not a fetus in the womb I guess I'll just accept it as one of those curiousities that I'll be interested in seeing how it plays out.

Thanks for your answer (and for another question for me.)

Rik the Seeker

Some questions get to details that are not spelled out in the Bible and apart from God showing you the event in vision - you will just have to wait to know.

OR maybe - He will show it to someone else.


================================================

free online book - the "Great Controversy" and a vivid description of the Second Coming. (All her books are free online)

(Note - almost all Christians are aware that as we near the second coming - instead of everyone on earth becoming more and more sinless and kind - what happens is that "the love of many shall grow cold" and the world sinks into chaos and sin. Yet the saints will continue to be the "salt of the earth" the light of the world always pointing rebellious mankind to the Gospel and the Love of God who will soon come to set things right).

Book: "The Great Controversy"

CHAPTER 40
God's People Delivered

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With shouts of triumph, jeering, and imprecation, throngs of evil men are about to rush upon their prey, when, lo, a

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dense blackness, deeper than the darkness of the night, falls upon the earth. Then a rainbow, shining with the glory from the throne of God, spans the heavens and seems to encircle each praying company. The angry multitudes are suddenly arrested. Their mocking cries die away. The objects of their murderous rage are forgotten. With fearful forebodings they gaze upon the symbol of God's covenant and long to be shielded from its overpowering brightness.

By the people of God a voice, clear and melodious, is heard, saying, "Look up," and lifting their eyes to the heavens, they behold the bow of promise. The black, angry clouds that covered the firmament are parted, and like Stephen they look up steadfastly into heaven and see the glory of God and the Son of man seated upon His throne. In His divine form they discern the marks of His humiliation; and from His lips they hear the request presented before His Father and the holy angels: "I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am." John 17:24. Again a voice, musical and triumphant, is heard, saying: "They come! they come! holy, harmless, and undefiled. They have kept the word of My patience; they shall walk among the angels;" and the pale, quivering lips of those who have held fast their faith utter a shout of victory.

It is at midnight that God manifests His power for the deliverance of His people. The sun appears, shining in its strength. Signs and wonders follow in quick succession. The wicked look with terror and amazement upon the scene, while the righteous behold with solemn joy the tokens of their deliverance. Everything in nature seems turned out of its course. The streams cease to flow. Dark, heavy clouds come up and clash against each other. In the midst of the angry heavens is one clear space of indescribable glory, whence comes the voice of God like the sound of many waters, saying: "It is done." Revelation 16:17.

That voice shakes the heavens and the earth. There is a

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mighty earthquake, "such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great." Verses 17, 18. The firmament appears to open and shut. The glory from the throne of God seems flashing through. The mountains shake like a reed in the wind, and ragged rocks are scattered on every side. There is a roar as of a coming tempest. The sea is lashed into fury. There is heard the shriek of a hurricane like the voice of demons upon a mission of destruction. The whole earth heaves and swells like the waves of the sea. Its surface is breaking up. Its very foundations seem to be giving way. Mountain chains are sinking. Inhabited islands disappear. The seaports that have become like Sodom for wickedness are swallowed up by the angry waters. Babylon the great has come in remembrance before God, "to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath." Great hailstones, every one "about the weight of a talent," are doing their work of destruction. Verses 19, 21. The proudest cities of the earth are laid low. The lordly palaces, upon which the world's great men have lavished their wealth in order to glorify themselves, are crumbling to ruin before their eyes. Prison walls are rent asunder, and God's people, who have been held in bondage for their faith, are set free.

...

Thick clouds still cover the sky; yet the sun now and then breaks through, appearing like the avenging eye of Jehovah.

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Fierce lightnings leap from the heavens, enveloping the earth in a sheet of flame. Above the terrific roar of thunder, voices, mysterious and awful, declare the doom of the wicked. The words spoken are not comprehended by all; but they are distinctly understood by the false teachers. ...

Through a rift in the clouds there beams a star whose brilliancy is increased fourfold in contrast with the darkness. It speaks hope and joy to the faithful, but severity and wrath to the transgressors of God's law. Those who have sacrificed all for Christ are now secure, hidden as in the secret of the Lord's pavilion. They have been tested, and before the world and the despisers of truth they have evinced their fidelity to Him

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who died for them. A marvelous change has come over those who have held fast their integrity in the very face of death. They have been suddenly delivered from the dark and terrible tyranny of men transformed to demons. Their faces, so lately pale, anxious, and haggard, are now aglow with wonder, faith, and love. Their voices rise in triumphant song: "God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea; though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof." Psalm 46:1-3.

...

 

[BobRyan]

Yes but what about the infants?

 

[BobRyan]

The living righteous are changed “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.” At the voice of God they were glorified; now they are made immortal and with the risen saints are caught up to meet their Lord in the air. Angels “gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Little children are borne by holy angels to their mothers’ arms. Friends long separated by death are united, nevermore to part, and with songs of gladness ascend together to the City of God. {GC 645.1}

On each side of the cloudy chariot are wings, and beneath it are living wheels; and as the chariot rolls upward, the wheels cry, “Holy,” and the wings, as they move, cry, “Holy,” and the retinue of angels cry, “Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty.” And the redeemed shout, “Alleluia!” as the chariot moves onward toward the New Jerusalem. {GC 645.2}

Before entering the City of God, the Saviour bestows upon His followers the emblems of victory and invests them with the insignia of their royal state. The glittering ranks are drawn up in the form of a hollow square about their King, whose form rises in majesty high above saint and angel, whose countenance beams upon them full of benignant love. Throughout the unnumbered host of the redeemed every glance is fixed upon Him, every eye beholds His glory whose “visage was so marred more than any man, and His form more than the sons of men.” Upon the heads of the overcomers, Jesus with His own right hand places the crown of glory. For each there is a crown, bearing his own “new name” (Revelation 2:17), and the inscription, “Holiness to the Lord.” In every hand are placed the victor’s palm and the shining harp. Then, as the commanding angels strike the note, every hand sweeps the harp strings with skillful touch, awaking sweet music in rich, melodious strains. Rapture unutterable thrills every heart, and each voice is raised in grateful praise: “Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father; to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.” Revelation 1:5, 6. {GC 645.3}

Before the ransomed throng is the Holy City. Jesus opens wide the pearly gates, and the nations that have kept the truth enter in. There they behold the Paradise of God, the home of Adam in his innocency. Then that voice, richer than any music that ever fell on mortal ear, is heard, saying: “Your conflict is ended.” “Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” {GC 646.1}


As the little infants come forth immortal from their dusty beds, they immediately wing their way to their mother’s arms. They meet again nevermore to part. But many of the little ones have no mother there. We listen in vain for the rapturous song of triumph from the mother. The angels receive the motherless infants and conduct them to the tree of life.—Selected Messages 2:260 (1858). {LDE 293.1}


Some questioned whether the little children of even believing parents should be saved, because they have had no test of character and all must be tested and their character determined by trial. The question is asked, “How can little children have this test and trial?” I answer that the faith of the believing parents covers the children, as when God sent His judgments upon the first-born of the Egyptians.... {LDE 293.2}


Whether all the children of unbelieving parents will be saved we cannot tell, because God has not made known His purpose in regard to this matter, and we had better leave it where God has left it and dwell upon subjects made plain in His Word.—Selected Messages 3:313-315 (1885). {LDE 293.3}

 

[yeshuasavedme]

1Co 7:14

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

One believing parent makes a child clean before the LORD, until that child comes to the understanding of doing right or wrong with will. At that point, they answer to God for themselves. Before that point, God has them covered by the once for all Atonement, because if even just one of their parents is in Covenant with the LORD , by that Atonement, they will be raptured as clean and holy seed, under the blood covenant, with their parent or parents.

All souls born in the Adam are written in the Book of Life, and because Jesus died to ransom every name written in that book, only those who have rejected the Light that lights every man that comes into the world, with will, is at risk of getting their names blotted out of the Book of Life.

If a son or daughter is left behind because they are living in rebellion to the Light that lights every man that comes into the world, with will, then they will miss the rapture but not get their names blotted out because they missed the rapture.
They still have time to repent and be saved in His name, only they will go through the tribulaiton and perhaps die for the name of Jesus, in it. Then they will be resurrected at the end of the tribulation in glorified bodies, and join their parents with Jesus in glory....
If they live through the tribulation without dying in their bodies, then they will enter the kingdom of God on earth and marry and have offspring as the "Blessed of YHWH", for the thousand year Sabbath of earth's Peace. At the end of that millennial Day, they will be transformed to glory, but their offspring will be tested for a little while before the earth is regenerated, and so on...


Enoch wrote His book for those living in the days of tribulation. He also gave the prophecy in the parables, that the rapture of the righteous and their change to glory will be seen by those on earth, before the tribulaiton, and some will see and repent and be saved in His [The Son of Man/Messiah's] ] name, but not get the glory....they go through tribulation.

The Book of the Watchers (Chapters 1-36)

http://www.summascriptura.com/html/Enoch_1_RHC.htm#99:2
Book of Enoch
Dedicated to the Last Generation
chapter 1
1 The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. 2And he took up his parable and said- Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is for to come.

Chapter 50: the pre-trib rapture and tribulation:
We Shall Be Changed

50 And in those days a change shall take place for the holy and elect,
And the light of days shall abide upon them,
And glory and honour shall turn to the holy,
2On the day of affliction on which evil shall have been treasured up against the sinners.

And the righteous shall be victorious in the name of the Lord of Spirits:
And He will cause the others to witness this
That they may repent
And forgo the works of their hands.

3They shall have no honour through the name of the Lord of Spirits,
Yet through His name shall they be saved,
And the Lord of Spirits will have compassion on them,
For His compassion is great.

4And He is righteous also in His judgement,
And in the presence of His glory unrighteousness also shall not maintain itself:
At His judgement the unrepentant shall perish before Him.
5And from henceforth I will have no mercy on them, saith the Lord of Spirits.

 

[BobRyan]

Enoch wrote His book for those living in the days of tribulation. He also gave the prophecy in the parables, that the rapture of the righteous and their change to glory will be seen by those on earth, before the tribulaiton, and some will see and repent and be saved in His [The Son of Man/Messiah's] ] name, but not get the glory....they go through tribulation.

The Book of the Watchers (Chapters 1-36)

http://www.summascriptura.com/html/Enoch_1_RHC.htm#99:2
Book of Enoch
Dedicated to the Last Generation
chapter 1
1 The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. 2And he took up his parable and said- Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is for to come.

Chapter 50: the pre-trib rapture and tribulation:
We Shall Be Changed

50 And in those days a change shall take place for the holy and elect,
And the light of days shall abide upon them,
And glory and honour shall turn to the holy,
2On the day of affliction on which evil shall have been treasured up against the sinners.

And the righteous shall be victorious in the name of the Lord of Spirits:
And He will cause the others to witness this
That they may repent
And forgo the works of their hands.

3They shall have no honour through the name of the Lord of Spirits,
Yet through His name shall they be saved,
And the Lord of Spirits will have compassion on them,
For His compassion is great.

4And He is righteous also in His judgement,
And in the presence of His glory unrighteousness also shall not maintain itself:
At His judgement the unrepentant shall perish before Him.
5And from henceforth I will have no mercy on them, saith the Lord of Spirits.

I believe it would be great to read something written by Enoch - I am sure his doctrine would have been pristine. How close is the actual manuscript in that example -- to the time when Enoch would have written or said it? If the document is "old" as in -- "around at the time Moses was writing" -- why didn't the Hebrews include it in the Temple along with the rest of the Hebrew Bible.

Clearly I would like to get a copy of anything Enoch wrote - but I am wondering if this is it.

Is it what Jude was quoting? If so -- where?

 

[BobRyan]

Enoch wrote His book for those living in the days of tribulation. He also gave the prophecy in the parables, that the rapture of the righteous and their change to glory will be seen by those on earth, before the tribulaiton, and some will see and repent and be saved in His [The Son of Man/Messiah's] ] name, but not get the glory....they go through tribulation.

That contradiction with Matt 24 would be a problem. Not sure Enoch would be the actual author of it.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

That contradiction with Matt 24 would be a problem. Not sure Enoch would be the actual author of it.

Yes, I also questioned the authenticity of the Book of Enoch... we tried reading it as a group but didn't make it far before we started noticing 'anomalies' that didn't jive with the Bible. Like the recently discovered Book of Judas, I'm pretty sure it's an attempt by Satan to try and deceive and divert attention away from God's clear Word.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Hi Bob,
The book of Enoch passages are in the Ethiopian Orthodox Canon from before the Jews in Ethiopia converted to the Gospel of Christ in first century. The Jews in Ethiopia had Enoch, just as the Jews of first century did. Those of the Jews who received the Gospel had it and used it. That is fact proven by history and the many statements in the New Testament that have their foundation in the Book of Enoch.
The only reason the Christ rejecting Jews of first Century banned it was because of their rejection of the Messiah, which Enoch testified of.
Robert Burns, who posts here at times, has a web site with much info on the history of it. www.summascriptura.com
There is no contradiction to Matthew 24, rather it affirms Enoch's revelations about the end times.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Bob,
The book of Enoch passages are in the Ethiopian Orthodox Canon from before the Jews in Ethiopia converted to the Gospel of Christ in first century.

And that Jewish apocrypha - rejected by the Jews when it came to the Hebrew Bible - the canon.

 

[ewq1938]

It's worth noting that "the Rapture" is a non-standard Christian belief. That is, it's simply not something the majority of Christians believe.

That's wrong. Most Christians believe in the rapture. The disagreement is when it occurs. I've never met any Christian that outright denied there is a rapture especially given that Paul wrote about the Rapture using the Greek word harpazo which over time became the English word rapture.