The Need to Practice Rapture

[oikonomia]

The second appearing/coming of Jesus to earth is when the righteous persons who are still living on earth meet Jesus in the air.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who have died, so that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have died. 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are living, who are left remaining unto the coming of the Lord, shall by no means precede those who have fallen asleep; (1 Thess. 4:15 RcV)

Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will be always with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:17 RcV)

I believe the words "we who are alive, who are left remaining" indicates some were alive and taken already.
It would have be adaquate for Paul to say "we who are alive" period.
"We who are alive, who are left remaining" could be the Holy Spirit indicating that some were alive and taken already.
For example those who heeded the warning to watch before the blasting of the last trumpet - firstfruits and those indicated
who were not left but suddenly taken in Matthew 24:40-42.

If the man-child is taken before the GT then those taken at the last trumpet would be "we who are alive, who are left remaining."
And if the firstfruits are taken before the GT then those raptured at the last trumpet would be "we who are alive, who are left remaining".
And the Christians left for not watching, in the field or at the mill or even on the bed would be of "we who are alive, who are LEFT remaining."

Satan was bound in hell for this same “a thousand years” at the time of Jesus' death on the cross. This "a thousand years" is symbolic for the time period between Jesus' first appearing on earth and His second (final appearing) on earth.

Revelation 20:1-6 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him, so that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be let out for a little while.

I believe Satan is unbound now. He is deceiving the nations presently.

The power of Jesus' death on the cross bound (restricted) Satan's power and mobility for "a thousand years".

But the subjetive experience of this depends upon our not being ignorant and our reckoning our death with Christ.
That calls for realization, faith, and practice.

Or are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? (Rom. 6:3)

And by identification with Christ reckon yourselves to be dead to sin, but living to God in Christ Jesus. (v.11)

This matter of His death and resurrection being applied to our living is also a GROWING matter, a matter of ever deepening enjoyment.
For if we have grown together with Him in the likeness of His death, indeed we will also be in the likeness of His resurrection, (v.5 Rcv)

Utilizing the co-death and co-rising with Christ is stated as something we should not be ignorant of in Romans 6.
Knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be annulled, that we should no longer serve sin as slaves; (v.6)

But the practical way to carry out this reckoning is not explained until he gets to Romans 8.
It is by setting the mind on the regenerated spirit where Christ is indwelling us.
And this turning to the spirit furnishes us the practical way to put to death the practices of the body.

For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace. (v. 8:6) . . .
but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live. (8:13b)

Reckoning our death with Christ and rising with Christ cannot be merely doctrinal.
Nor is it merely psychological or a will power attitude of positiveness.
It is only by setting the mind on the Spirit of Christ who is living in our spirit.

[T]he last Adam became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45)
And if we practice to set out mind on Him He will give life to our mortal bodies.
And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you. (8:11)

This putting to death the practices of the sin nature filled body and putting the old man on the cross
can only be carried out by walking by the Spirit. And walking by the Spirit requires practice.

That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the [regenerated human] spirit. (Rom. 8:4)

But I say, Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh. (Gal. 5:16)

I must suspend here. Thanks for the passages for my reading and enjoyment.

 

[Jan001]

So you are saying the OT was not finished by Jesus on the Cross, but all were still held in the bondage of death given to Adam and Eve?

The work of the Cross will only be finished sometime in the future?

Jesus did not mean it is finished, but it will be finished later?

The OT was fulfilled by Jesus' death on the cross and His resurrection. His NC was ratified by His death on the cross and His resurrection.

Paul explained: 2 Thessalonians 2

"By our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand." They were either being told no other resurrection would happen other than the Cross, or that no resurrection could ever happen, because they were already in the day of Christ and that was as good as it gets.

We are still here on earth so this gathering together with Him has not happened yet.

You seem to deny that the OT redeemed were resurrected permanently. That they once again had to be subjected to death until the GWT Judgment. Why would you allow a resurrection at the Second Coming, but not one at the First Coming, since Jesus declared on the Cross, that even death was finished for those in Christ?

I do deny that the OT redeemed were resurrected permanently after Jesus died on the cross. However, their spirits were escorted by Jesus into heaven after His death on the cross even though their bodies were not. Their bodies must wait for Jesus' second coming because that is when we all will receive our immortal and incorruptible bodies.

I do not think that the people whose tombs were opened and their bodies raised by the earthquakes at the time of Jesus' death became resurrected bodies. I think they became animated bodies. I think that these bodies were returned to their tombs to await the resurrection of the dead at Jesus' second coming. These bodies appeared to many in Jerusalem. It does not state that they talked to anyone. It does not state that these bodies were reunited with their spirits and it does not state that they ascended into heaven.

Matthew 27:51-53 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53 After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many.

Death is not finished for us who are on earth. Death will not be finished for the people on earth until Jesus returns at His second coming.

Some limit the promise made by Jesus as being future.

"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Why could this not describe going to the Cross, and returning after 3 days? From that point on, all in Christ would be with Jesus in heaven. Being received in Christ does not necessitate physical death to happen immediately. It does mean that physical death is the door to eternal life instead of tasting death and stuck in the grave with the rest of the dead for thousands of years.

The spirits of the dead are very much alive but their bodies are not. Their bodies await in their graves for the second coming/appearing of Jesus at the end of time. The trumpet will sound, and this is when the dead bodies will be raised and reunited with their spirits. This is when all the righteous will receive their immortal and incorruptible bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:51-55
Listen while I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the sound of the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must be clothed with the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

54 When this perishable body puts on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, then will the words that are written be fulfilled:
“Death has been swallowed up in victory.
55 Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

 

[Jan001]

This passage says that Christ individually is the firstfruits - Christ the firstfruits,

You are correct. I should have read more context.

I changed it to:

Firstfruits is Jesus Christ who received His immortal and incorruptible resurrected body at the time of His resurrection from the dead.

We must wait until Jesus returns at His second coming to receive our immortal and incorruptible bodies.

Harvest is in the future. This will occur at Jesus' second appearing/coming.

We have a different understanding of the Scriptures. Thank you for sharing yours.

 

[oikonomia]

He doesn't state we should practice "rapture" those are your words.

You don't think it practically amounts to the same thing?
I cannot see why not.

And of course a Christian should always try and do what's righteous. But part of being a Christian is to heed the warnings put out by Christ and watch for the signs he laid out. It's only right we should be doing that as well. Or are you suggesting the signs he lays out are pointless?

No, I do not want to give the impression that the outward signs have no point.

And the warning about deception is pointless?

No, neither the warnings of objective signs or those on subjective watchful living are pointless.

Paul also told us to watch so that day does not overtake one as a thief. Same teaching as Christ.

Amen.

 

[oikonomia]

We have a different understanding of the Scriptures. Thank you for sharing yours.

Thankyou for your fellowship.
And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 5:23)

If we divide the full salvation of man (to sanctify us wholly) into three stages they would be:

1.) Regeneration in the spirit
2.) Transformation in the soul
3.) Transfiguration in the body

Here is the tendency of many, to think all three are instantaneous.
But the middle one - transformation of the soul is a life long matter.

The enlivening of out spirit may take less than a second.
The changing of our bodies may be in the twinkling of an eye.

The transformation of our soul is in degrees from one degree of expression to the next. (2 Cor. 3:17,18)
Do many emphasize this need for the patient and endurance of beholding and reflecting Him for the soul's transformation?
I went years without realizing this need.

I am trying to enlarge the number of believers who see the seriousness of the need.
And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord,
are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit. (2 Cor. 3:17,18)

 

[oikonomia]

A few special people, for a special purpose. They are never said to have stayed in heaven to live.

You're not talking to me now. I have repeated many times that Christ descends with His bridal army.

I may not have yet mentioned Jude 14,15.

And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied also of these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with myriads of His saints
To execute judgment against all and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly works which they have done in ungodliness, and concerning all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him. (Jude 14,15)
Compare:
These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and they who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful, will also overcome them. (Rev. 17:14)
Compare:
And He is clothed with a garment dipped in blood; and His name is called the Word of God.
And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean. (Rev. 19:13,14)
Compare:
Hurry and come, / All you surrounding nations, / And be gathered. / There cause Your mighty ones to descend, O Jehovah! (Joel 3:11)

The Lord does not leave the overcomers in heaven.
Neither the myriads (Jude 14)
nor they who are with Him (Rev. 17:14)
nor the called and chosen and faithful (v.14)
nor the armies which are in heaven (Rev. 19:14)
nor the mighty ones (Joel 3:11)
remain in heaven as Christ descends.

 

[oikonomia]

Wrong placement of the comma and you even Capitalize Today, Bad you.
How do you reconcile 1 Peter 3:19? Jesus didn't go immediately to heaven at all.

There are no commas in the original Greek. These punctuations were added.

Jesus on the day He died went to the heart of the earth where paradise is.

For just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. (Matt. 12:40)
Compare:
And He said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise. (Luke 23:43)
Compare:
(Now this, “He ascended,” what is it except that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth? (Eph. 4:9)

 

[keras]

I may not have yet mentioned Jude 14,15.

It was against them that Enoch......prophesied: I saw the Lord come with myriads of His angels....... Revised English Bible.
Rev 19:14 and Matthew 16:27 are proofs that Jesus will be accompanied by angels, not humans.

The Lord does not leave the overcomers in heaven.

First; show proof of how and when they get up to heaven.

There are no commas in the original Greek. These punctuations were added.

Jesus on the day He died went to the heart of the earth where paradise is.

For just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. (Matt. 12:40)
Compare:
And He said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise. (Luke 23:43)
Compare:
(Now this, “He ascended,” what is it except that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth? (Eph. 4:9)

Hopeless confusion!

 

[oikonomia]

It was against them that Enoch......prophesied: I saw the Lord come with myriads of His angels....... Revised English Bible.
Rev 19:14 and Matthew 16:27 are proofs that Jesus will be accompanied by angels, not humans.

[14]προεφήτευσε δὲ καὶ τούτοις ἕβδομος ἀπὸ ᾿Αδὰμ ᾿Ενὼχ λέγων· ἰδοὺ ἦλθε Κύριος ἐν ἁγίαις μυριάσιν αὐτοῦ,

Point out "angels" in this text.

If you weren't so unbelieving that saved humans could be "holy ones" you would not be so doubtful.

Ephesians 1:4

Christian Standard Bible
For he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in love before him.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love

American Standard Version
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

 

[keras]

Point out "angels" in this text

The Greek word 'hagios', can be either angels or Christian humans, We know they must be angels, from Rev 19:14 and Matthew 16:27
Plus; the non existence of any scripture saying humans go to heaven in the first place.

 

[oikonomia]

The Greek word 'hagios', can be either angels or Christian humans, We know they must be angels, from Rev 19:14 and Matthew 16:27
Plus; the non existence of any scripture saying humans go to heaven in the first place.

You assume it must be angels because you dumb down the New Testament robbing it of its impact.

 

[oikonomia]

The Greek word 'hagios', can be either angels or Christian humans, We know they must be angels, from Rev 19:14 and Matthew 16:27
Plus; the non existence of any scripture saying humans go to heaven in the first place.

Revelation 19:14 - And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

The "armies" clothed in battle array of fine linen, white and clean are the same as His wife . . . clothed in fine linen, bright and clean;
In both cases the clothing symbolizes - the righteousness-ES of the saints.

What qualifies this remnant group of overcomers for the marriage of the Lamb is also what qualifies her to accompany
Christ the King of kings down from heaven to Armageddon.

Revelation 19:7-9 - Let us rejoice and exult, and let us give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready. And it was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints.

And he said to me, Write, Blessed are they who are called to the marriage dinner of the Lamb. And he said to me, These are the true words of God.

The word "righteousnesses" means righteous deeds, righteous living, righteous behaviors, righteous acts.
"Righteousness-ES" here is not the righteousness of justification by faith alone. It is Christ lived out and expressed in
deeds, living, acts. Therefore it is not as large as the Wife of the entire New Jerusalem in the new heaven and new earth.
Here she is a remnant who overcame. [Eventually ALL who have ever been regenerated overcome by the end of the 1,000 years.]

They are a multitude of humans not a multitude of holy angels.

Revelation 19:1 - After these things I heard as it were a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God.
Revelation 19:6 - And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty thunders, saying, Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.

What is key here is that this group "HAS MADE HERSELF READY".
Through the expected vigilance, watching, abiding consistently, and allowing Christ's life to be dispensed uninterruptedly she has
wisely "made herself ready."

Other reliable English renderings of verse 7 -

New King James Version
And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Contemporary English Version
She will be given a wedding dress made of pure and shining linen. This linen stands for the good things God's people have done."

New American Standard Bible
It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Amplified Bible
She has been permitted to dress in fine linen, dazzling white and clean—for the fine linen signifies the righteous acts of the saints [the ethical conduct, personal integrity, moral courage, and godly character of believers].

International Standard Version
She has been given the privilege of wearing fine linen, dazzling and pure." (The fine linen represents the righteous deeds of the saints.)

 

[oikonomia]

The church is the encrease and enlargment of Christ. As God was manifested in the flesh in the individual Jesus Christ
the church is to be the continuation of God manifest in the flesh.

The wife who has made herself ready in Revelation 19 rejoices that the degraded harlot of
the facade of Christiandom has been judged. For this confusion has hindered the corporate manifestation
of God in the church - the pillar and base of the truth - God manifest in the flesh.

After these things I heard as it were a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God.

For true and righteous are His judgments; for He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication, and He avenged the blood of His slaves at her hand.

And a second time they said, Hallelujah! And her smoke goes up forever and ever. (Rev. 19:1-3)

Not only so but she with Christ was "taken up in glory" in resurrection and rapture prior to this
time of Babylon's judgment. She must witness it from heaven.

But if I delay, I write that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth.

And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was manifested in the flesh, / Justified in the Spirit, / Seen by angels, / Preached among the nations, / Believed on in the world, / Taken up in glory. (1 Tim. 3:15,16)

 

[oikonomia]

Any Bible student who cannot see the degradation of Christianity will not well understand the book of Revelation.
For the Revelation of Jesus Christ also includes the laying bare and naked the tactics of His enemy to oppose
with mixture, confusion, leavening, corruption the church - the continuation of the testimony of Jesus on earth.

That is to hinder the dispesning of the Triune God into man for the expression of God minifest in the flesh starting with
the first God-man Christ and continuing with the church the house of the living God.

 

[oikonomia]

Christ was taken up in glory in His ascension.
At the end of this age a subgroup of overcomers will be taken up in glory at the end of the Great Commission.

But if I delay, I write that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth.
And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the nations,
Believed on in the world,
Taken up in glory. (1 Tim. 3:15,16)

Here the mystery of godliness is first in Christ - the manifestation of God in the flesh. And it has its continuation'
in the normal prevailing church life on earth as the manifestation of God in the flesh expanded and enlarged.

Here "preached among the nations" and "believed on in the world" goes before "taken up in glory."
This shows that the church as normal and overcoming follows Jesus Christ who was taken up in glory BEFORE He
He was preached among the nations and believed on in the world.

The man-child is an example of some taken up in glory at the end of the preaching of the gospel in the world.

And she [the larger majority of saints] brought forth a son [a strong remnant], a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev. 12:5) Ie. "taken up in glory" like Christ. (1 Tim. 3:16)

Here again the wife who has made herself ready is seen having been taken up in glory.

And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty thunders, saying, Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.
Let us rejoice and exult, and let us give the glory to Him,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready. (Rev. 19:7,8)

 

[oikonomia]

Why do some dear Christians so resist the revelation of the overcoming church?
It could be that they have been so befuddled and drugged by the typical scene of Christianity's degradation.

The Bible is dumbed down to accomodate for the defeat of the majority.
So the church seen coming with Christ from heaven in the final battle with God's enemies must be angels.

But the Bible says those who are WITH Christ are the called and chosen and most of all FAITHFUL.
Do you think it is talking about angels or saints who have overcome in faithfulness from the church?

These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and they who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful, will also overcome them. (Rev. 17:14 Recovery Version)

To God's calling and God's choosing they have added something - their FAITHFULNESS.
and they who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful

These are not an elite as super spiritually above the standard.
They are the normal ones who are more than conquerors only through Christ's available and sufficient grace.

They have only done what was expected of them.

Luke 17:10 -

New King James Version
So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’ ”

New American Standard Bible
So you too, when you do all the things which were commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’”

So also you, when you do all the things which are ordered you, say,
We are unprofitable slaves; we have done what we ought to have done. (Recovery Version)

 

[keras]

the Bible says those who are WITH Christ are the called and chosen and most of all FAITHFUL.
Do you think it is talking about angels or saints who have overcome in faithfulness from the church?

These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and they who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful, will also overcome them. (Rev. 17:14 Recovery Version)

No one has any problem with these truths. We see in Revelation 2 & 3, that not all Church members are Overcomers.
But it is when people think they are called and chosen to go to live in heaven, then they are wrong. An extra-biblical doctrine, a false teaching.

You flood the threads with mini sermons, without actually proving your rapture belief. Of course, because there is no proof of that fanciful idea.
The fact of both angels and faithful human Christians having white robes, in no way proves the incredible idea of Returning with Jesus.

 

[oikonomia]

No one has any problem with these truths. We see in Revelation 2 & 3, that not all Church members are Overcomers.
But it is when people think they are called and chosen to go to live in heaven, then they are wrong. An extra-biblical doctrine, a false teaching.

It is not enough for you to state and re-state that with aplumb.
You have to show it in Scripture.

The multitude heard in heaven GOT THERE some way. By rapture has to be how they got there.
After these things I heard as it were a loud voice of a great multitude IN HEAVEN, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God. (Rev. 19:1)

You can cry "extra-biblical! extra-biblical!" until the cows come home.
Change your belief in humility.

The multitude heard singing in heaven GOT THERE some way.
And I heard a voice out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harp-singers playing on their harps.
And they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the hundred and forty-four thousand, WHO HAVE BEEN PURCHASED FROM THE EARTH. (Rev. 14:2,3)

You can growl "extra biblical!" and "false teaching!" all you want and maybe it will impress somebody.
It doesn't impress us who believe at face value Revelation 14:1-4 and 19:1-9.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time. (Rev. 12:12)

It is intra-biblical that some overcomers "who dwell in heaven" GOT THERE. And we are told how.
And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev. 12:5)

They are "in heaven" just as surely as others are on earth in contrast.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time.

You flood the threads with mini sermons, without actually proving your rapture belief. Of course, because there is no proof of that fanciful idea.
The fact of both angels and faithful human Christians having white robes, in no way proves the incredible idea of Returning with Jesus.

Pom-poms and cheerleader dances don't refute it.
I'm sorry you wrote so many lessons and had it wrong.
Change your belief in humility. Or at least take it to the Lord in prayer.

No, the verses do not mean the opposite of what they say.
No, they are not talking about angels rejoicing at salvation or invited to be the Lamb's wife.
No, just flooding the threads with repeated assertions of "extra biblical, false teaching" doesn't strengthen your case.

 

[keras]

The multitude heard singing in heaven GOT THERE some way.
And I heard a voice out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harp-singers playing on their harps.
Rv 14:3And they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the hundred and forty-four thousand, WHO HAVE BEEN PURCHASED FROM THE EARTH. (Rev. 14:2,3)

You confuse the dead martyrs with the living 144,000.

The multitude in heaven are the Christian martyrs, all those killed for their faith, Stephen was the first and they are still being added to.
Their souls are kept under the Altar in heaven and God allows them to cry out at times. Rev 6:9-11

The living people referred to in Revelation 14:1-3 and in Revelation 7:1-9, are in Jerusalem, as Jesus is revealed to them; standing on Mt Zion. They have been ransomed as the first fruits of mankind., selected out of the peoples of the earth. Rev 14:3

You can growl "extra biblical!" and "false teaching!" all you want and maybe it will impress somebody.
It doesn't impress us who believe at face value Revelation 14:1-4 and 19:1-9.

I view those scriptures at face value, You add to them with a false theory of people living in heaven.

 

[Timtofly]

The OT was fulfilled by Jesus' death on the cross and His resurrection. His NC was ratified by His death on the cross and His resurrection.


We are still here on earth so this gathering together with Him has not happened yet.





I do deny that the OT redeemed were resurrected permanently after Jesus died on the cross. However, their spirits were escorted by Jesus into heaven after His death on the cross even though their bodies were not. Their bodies must wait for Jesus' second coming because that is when we all will receive our immortal and incorruptible bodies.

I do not think that the people whose tombs were opened and their bodies raised by the earthquakes at the time of Jesus' death became resurrected bodies. I think they became animated bodies. I think that these bodies were returned to their tombs to await the resurrection of the dead at Jesus' second coming. These bodies appeared to many in Jerusalem. It does not state that they talked to anyone. It does not state that these bodies were reunited with their spirits and it does not state that they ascended into heaven.

Matthew 27:51-53 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53 After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many.

Death is not finished for us who are on earth. Death will not be finished for the people on earth until Jesus returns at His second coming.

The spirits of the dead are very much alive but their bodies are not. Their bodies await in their graves for the second coming/appearing of Jesus at the end of time. The trumpet will sound, and this is when the dead bodies will be raised and reunited with their spirits. This is when all the righteous will receive their immortal and incorruptible bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:51-55
Listen while I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the sound of the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must be clothed with the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

54 When this perishable body puts on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, then will the words that are written be fulfilled:
“Death has been swallowed up in victory.
55 Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

This physical body of death returns to the dust. It will never be resurrected nor changed. No one seems to understand Paul's point. Paul never said this body would be changed. Paul said the soul would change bodies, and souls without bodies were naked. You are confusing a soul with air. You have no access to your spirit, as it was never a part of who you are in death. Spirits did not wait in sheol, souls waited in sheol. The redeemed souls waited in Abraham's bosom.

Paradise is a physical place in Heaven, where physical bodies do exist. The first resurrection is physical, and those verses in Matthew 27 do indeed point to the soul putting on God's permanent incorruptible physical body. All those OT redeemed in physical bodies ascended to Paradise Sunday morning when Jesus presented them to God as the firstfruits made alive. All have entered Paradise via the first resurrection like the thief on the Cross who are and were the NT redeemed.

Only Enoch and Moses ascended into Paradise prior to the thief on the Cross. That is why the rest were naked souls waiting in Abraham's bosom. Of course David never ascended, but waited in Abraham's bosom until the Cross.

You are applying the wrong interpretation on all those verses you quoted.

Those in Christ who died today, received a permanent incorruptible physical body like 2 Corinthians 5:1 declares. That is the first resurrection. The rest of the dead still waiting in sheol will wait another 1,000 years at the least until they are judged and they decide to continue to reject God, or accept the first resurrection and escape the Second Death. The dead in Christ will always rise first. Nothing can stop them from obtaining the first resurrection upon physical death.

Jesus will bring all those who have left this world with Him at the Second Coming. Those alive will change out of their dead body into a permanent incorruptible physical body, and meet those coming with Christ in the air. Then all will put on the spirit, as John symbolizes as the white robe, and the church will continue to wait in Paradise until Day of the Lord is completed. After the robe of white is put on, the church is told to wait until the rest of the redeemed are gathered from the earth.

Now John states a little while at the 6th Seal for those to shed their body of death on the earth. This is the final harvest of Matthew 13, and the separation of the sheep and goats after the Second Coming. The angels gather the final harvest, not the church. But the church still waits while those in new permanent incorruptible physical bodies on the earth rule with Jesus as King until the earth is subdued. That rule and reign is the Day of the Lord, as John states a thousand years. This is when Daniel 9:24 is truly declared on the earth, and the bondage of sin is removed from creation.

The work was accomplished on the Cross. But the fulness of the Gentiles has to be complete like the house of Israel was given 1400 years. It would have been 2,000 years but the first 600 years were given to Ishmael, as Abraham got impatient and did not wait for the promised seed. Israel had to wait in Egypt for most of that time.

We are not in the Day of the Lord as you propose. The Sabbath day was not the 5th and 6th days of creation. Why would the Day of the Lord be the 5th and 6th days of Adam's punishment? The 4th Commandment explains God's plan of redemption. Mankind would be under the bondage of sin for a minimum of 6,000 years. The Day of the Lord is Holy and set apart unto God. That is why Satan cannot exist like he has in the current 6,000 years of human history. You may have Satan bound, but not the same as God promised about the Day of the Lord.