PRE-Trib church to be raptured

[oikonomia]

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).

We have to look more closely and with brighter light from the Lord.

First, are there "days" after the day the beheaded martyrs are resurrected to reign with Christ forone thousand years?

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and of those who had not worshipped the beast nor his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:4)

You see on the day these faithful ones are resurrected there are still a thousand years of days afterwards. So we should understand "the last day" in the right way and right sense with Revelation 20.

The Old Testament patriarchs will be resurrected to celebrate with Christ. And His twelve disciples will co-reign with HIm
in the millennium.
But I say to you that many will come from the east and the west and will recline at table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens, (Matt. 8:11)
And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the restoration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19:28)

If the disciples are resurrected to reign in the restoration (the thousand years) are there not days following "the last day" of thier
resurrection?

Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

Yes, there is the resurrection and rapture at this time towards the conclusion of the 3.5 years of the great tribulation.
But this is the resurrection and rapture of the Harvest which ripens at the end of that time.
Before the resurrection of the Harvest there is the rapture of the Firstfruits previous in time to the Harvest.

The rapture of the Firstfruits is in Revelation 14:1-5 before the specified major events of the great tribulation in verses 6 - 13.
And the resurrection and rapture of the Harvest is after those same major events in Revelation 14:14-16.

The very words Firstfruits and Harvest imply an interval of TIME between these two reapings.
Firstfruits in God's field ripen early as a minority and Harvest ripens latter as a majority.
In between are "days" of the 42 months of great tribulation.

Likewise the resurrection and rapture of the Man-child preceeds and even precipitates the following days
for the rest of her seed of the universally bright woman, to be persecuted by God's enemies.

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Following the resurrection of the remnant Man-child there are 1,260 days. During those days "the rest of her seed" who are saved
people are under persecution still being left on earth.

And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus. (Rev. 12:17)

And to the woman there were given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness into her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time from the face of the serpent. (Rev. 12:14)

Among these will be the majority which will be raptured at last trumpet as indicated by 1 Thess. 4:16.
Because the Lord Himself, with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will be always with the Lord. (1 Thess, 4:16,17)

Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).

The issue is are there "days" after "the last day" of resurrection / rapture.

In the analogy of God rescuing Lot and or Noah before the judgment of the places of their dwelling,
"days" existed after their being rescued in both cases.

When Lot went out of Sodom though it was the end of days for the people of Sodom there were still days.
When Noah entered the ark it was the end of days for those drowned in the flood. But there were still days.

Besides, in Matthrew 24:39-41 it is a rapture of those living and going about daily duties of life.
There is no loud trumpet sound of warning. It is a sudden unexpected catching away at an hour not expected.

So it is pre-great tribulation and not the tumultous public loud coming of 1 Thess. 4:16,17.

Because the Lord Himself, with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (1 Thess. 4:16)

Compare:

At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt. 24:40-42)

The Harvest is loudly heralded.
The Firstfruits are not.

The Harvest is at the last trumpet.
The Firstfruits like the Man-child are taken prior to the blasting of the last three of the seven trumpets.
We do not know when the pre-great tribulation rapture / resurrection and rapture will occur.
But it is not at the last trumpet.

However the majority, the Harvest which is God's crop ripening through the heat of the great tribulation
is resurrected / raptured "at the last trumpet". So some "days" had to enterevene between the two
raptures (Matt. 24:40-42; Rev. 14:1) and resurrection and rapture (Rev. 12:5,6)

This is enough for this post. The rest we can talk about in another post perhaps.
"The last day" of resurrection has to be examined carefully.

The judgment of the living sheep and goats is at the beginning of the time of 1,000 year restoration.
The great white throne judgment of all the dead is at the end of that 1,000 year period.

Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats at the end of time (Matthew 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the coming of the Lord is in the last day at the judgment of all mankind at the end of time:

the last day (end of time) = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

 

[ViaCrucis]

Thankyou. Allow me to discuss.
So like Noah we are being warned to be prepared and ready to brought by God into a realm of physical and spiritual safety.

It is vitally important that when we study the text here that we extract from the text what it's saying. Don't add or insert things about the flood story into the way Jesus is using the flood story in what He is saying here. Pay careful attention.

For just as the days of Noah were, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day in which Noah entered into the ark,

Watch . . . to enter into the experience of being taken.
Rapture is:
1.) Conditional upon watching not automatic upon just regeneration.
2.) It corresponds to entering "into the ark".

No. The "they" here are the many who, at the time of the flood, were going about their lives as usual. They were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage. It was the ordinary things of life, people were going about their days doing what they always do, they were planning their future days, getting married, being given in marriage--to live out their lives having children, growing old, etc. That all was happening right until the very end, the day Noah entered the ark.

Rapture here is not a matter physical removal APART from the removal of the psychological and spiritual HEART from that
place to be judged. This is unquestionably established in the example of Lot's wife.

Remember Lot’s wife.
Whoever seeks to preserve his soul-life will lose it, and whoever loses it will preserve it alive. (Luke 17:32,33)

You see, Lot's wife was physically removed from the place before judgment.
But it did her no good because psychologically she still was there in her heart.
Therefore the backward look which exposed her heart.

Lot's wife's "rapture" (of you will) was unsuccessful because she became a monument of shame- a pillar of salt.
"Remember Lot's wife" is the warning to all Christians who assume that as long their body is taken out of danger,
they are taken out of danger.

Here is where pop Rapture expositions either Pre or Post tribulation often fail badly. Ie. Hal Lindsey's best seller,
Left Behind screenplays.

So a lifestyle of practice is needed that our heart be removed by denying the self in favor of enjoying the Lord Jesus.
Whoever seeks to preserve his soul-life will lose it, and whoever loses it will preserve it alive. (Luke 17:33)
This has to refer to more than just initial re-birth of regeneration the portion of all real Christians.

That is what it is to "watch" in the way of "setting the mind on the spirit" and walking by the Spirit.

At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt. 24;40-42)

Lot's wife was watching in the wrong direction. And we who await rapture need to remember her result.
Missing a pre-tribulation rapture is not losing eternal redemption or eternal life.
But it will be as a shameful testimony to the world.

Those who are wise will realize the great tribulation is upon them.
And there is no room any longer in their heart to love the world.
May the Lord then have mercy on us that whatever and whenever things unfold, we be found in Him watching [ living unto Him ].

Again, Jesus' point is people will be going about their lives completely oblivious of what is about to happen. Two will be in the field, two will be at the grind mill. People are working fields, grinding grain, making food, going to work, etc. They are going about their lives in a completely ordinary way. But, when Judgment comes--when Jesus comes--it will be like the flood. It will be sudden and unexpected, it's not going to happen when we can predict it to happen. That's why all of this is sandwiched between Jesus saying, "Of that day and hour, no one knows" and also "Your Lord comes on a day you do not know"

What Jesus' followers have, that the world doesn't have, is watchfulness. To know that He will come, that there will be a Day of Judgment, Christ will return in all glory from heaven as Judge of the quick and the dead. And His coming is, for us, not something to be frightful of, but hopeful--for when He comes to judge, we shall be raised up, glorified in our very bodies, and enter into the eternal rest of God in the future ages of ages--new heavens and new earth. But for the wicked, His coming is to tread the wine press of God's wrath.

Therefore, what kind of people ought we be? Jesus tells us of the faithful and unfaithful servant, He tells us the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, He tells us the parable of the talents. We are to be the faithful servant, the wise virgin, to invest what we have been given. We have been tasked with following Jesus, not sitting and doing nothing simply waiting until He returns.

He will return, but we do not know when.
He will return, therefore we are to be busy.
He will return, and so we hope in the fullness of what God shall do.

Our hope, when He comes, is that we shall not be overwhelmed by the flood of His judgment, as the people in Noah's day were; but rather we have entered into the ark of His salvation, and shall pass through judgment and into life everlasting and world without end.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[oikonomia]

It is vitally important that when we study the text here that we extract from the text what it's saying. Don't add or insert things about the flood story into the way Jesus is using the flood story in what He is saying here. Pay careful attention.

Thankyou. Thankyou very much. However . . . I add nothing. I subtract nothing.
In Matthew 24 there is a seamless flow between His words about Noah and the pairs of people come upon by the Lord.

For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day in which Noah entered into the ark, (v.38)
And they did not know that judgment was coming until the flood came and took all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. (v.39)
At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. (v.40)

That is a seamless continuation of subject matter. So I have not added or subtracted ANYTHING there.
The same is true with Luke 17.

Remember Lot’s wife. (v.32)
Whoever seeks to preserve his soul-life will lose it, and whoever loses it will preserve it alive.(v.33)
I tell you, In that night there will be two on one bed; the one will be taken and the other will be left. (v.34)

The continuation of subject matter, readiness for rapture by watchfulness is seamless.
I have neither added or subtracted to the flow of subject matter.

No. The "they" here are the many who, at the time of the flood, were going about their lives as usual.

Excuse me. I said nothing to imply otherwise.
In fact I did say the pairs of men and women in the field and at the mill are going about daily legitimate
duties.

Yes, the "they" is to serve as a warning to the following pairs of Christians going about their daily lives.
I added nothing. I subtracted nothing.

The teaching's goal is that the disciples would not be as the THEY who were judged.
But they will all be in the same generation.

They were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage. It was the ordinary things of life, people were going about their days doing what they always do, they were planning their future days, getting married, being given in marriage--to live out their lives having children, growing old, etc. That all was happening right until the very end, the day Noah entered the ark.

Excuse me again. I said nothing contrary to this.
I expounded on the seamless flow of subject matter.

But concerning that day and hour, no one knows, not even the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but the Father only. (v.36)
For just as the days of Noah were, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. (v.37)
For as THEY were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day in which Noah entered into the ark,(v.38)
And THEY did not know that judgment was coming until the flood came and took all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. (v.39)
At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. (v.40)

Your cautionary note about adding or subtracting is appreciated but a false alarm.
The continuation of the characteristics of the "THEY" (v.38) of Noah's generation is related to the generation "AT THAT TIME"(v.40)

Again, Jesus' point is people will be going about their lives completely oblivious of what is about to happen.

This only goes to support the logical continuation about the two in the field and the two grinding at the mill.
The example of one being taken and one being left goes right into the moral lesson of the prophecy.

Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes.
But know this, that if the householder had known in which watch the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. (vs. 42,43)

I have neither added or subtracted any of my personal ideas.
You' ll have to give me a more valid objection if you object.

Two will be in the field, two will be at the grind mill. People are working fields, grinding grain, making food, going to work, etc. They are going about their lives in a completely ordinary way.

What have I written which says otherwise?
The point is that in their going about mundabe resposibilities one is watchful and one is not.

At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes.

As I read down your reply I am waiting for a valid examination. And I will skip down to locate a real problem.
On this pre-great tribulation time judgment is coming.
In spite of this people live as if tomorrow will have no problem.

Christians who are of the day and not of the night SHOULD be walking in Spirit [watching] in their
day to day legitimate responsibilities.
And in Luke 17 even as they rest on a bed at night that Lord wants to find them in a spiritual atmosphere within.

I tell you, In that night there will be two on one bed; the one will be taken and the other will be left. (v.34)

This is teaching for TODAY. I mean TODAY for all Christians.
We know not when all hell will break loose in judgment.
We must go on about our lives as the rest of the unbelieving world also does for the most part.

And all the exhortations of the New Testament about living moment by moment unto the Lord who has saved us
may be subsummed in the word to WATCH.

These verses about pairs of Christians either watching or neglecting to do so are about pre-great tribulation rapture
I did not say they are about the ONLY rapture. I say these passages about the unexpected sudden catching away
are about pre-GT rapture.

But, when Judgment comes--when Jesus comes--it will be like the flood. It will be sudden and unexpected, it's not going to happen when we can predict it to happen.

Where did I mention the date is predictable?
I did not. And that is the point of teaching in especially in Matthew 24.

Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (v.42)
For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming. (v.44)

That's why all of this is sandwiched between Jesus saying, "Of that day and hour, no one knows" and also "Your Lord comes on a day you do not know"

What Jesus' followers have, that the world doesn't have, is watchfulness.

Here you are speaking about what OUGHT to be rather than what the actual situation IS.
If Christians lived watchful lives AUTOMATICALLY there would be no need for Jesus to caution His diciples TO watch.

Who then is the faithful and prudent slave, whom the master has set over his household to give them food at the proper time? (v.45)
The Lord forewarns that there are servants of His who are "faithful and prudent."
And there will be servants of His who will be found at that time not so.

The ones who He deems "faithful and prudent" are the saved servants who live WATCHING.
The ones who suspend faithfulness or neglect prudence are the ones in danger of being caught off guard by their master.

This is indicated in the continuation of the Lord's warning.

Who then is the faithful and prudent slave, whom the master has set over his household to give them food at the proper time? (v.45)
Blessed is that slave whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. (v.46)
Truly I say to you that he will set him over all his possessions. (v.47)

But if that evil slave says in his heart, My master delays, (v.48)
And begins to beat his fellow slaves and eats and drinks with the drunken, (v.49)
The master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, (v.50)

The Lord is both the master of the servant who is found faithful and prudent AND of the one misbehaving rather than watching.
An unbeliever does not own the Lord Jesus as his master.
An unbeliever neither expects his master is delaying.

It is true that the pre-tribulation rapture and subsequent great tribulation will come when unexpected.
However there are the Lord's servants upon whom this events come.
And there are unbeliever who do not own Christ as master upon the events will come.

Now, taking just the class of the Lord's servants there are two subclasses.
There are servants who are faithful and prudent who are blessed slaves because they will be found so
And there are servants who fail or suspend this living who say "My master delays" as excuse to act worldily with the unbelievers.

Therefore the TWO in the field refers to TWO Christians and not to a Christian and an unbeliever.
Therefore TWO at the mill are TWO Christians and not a unbeliever and a Christian,
Therefore the TWO in a bed at night are TWO Christians and not a Christian and an unbeliever.

Therefore the TWO pairs in each case refer to a servant who is faithful and prudent and a servant of the Lord
who fails to be so.

Therefore, what kind of people ought we be? Jesus tells us of the faithful and unfaithful servant, He tells us the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, He tells us the parable of the talents. We are to be the faithful servant, the wise virgin, to invest what we have been given. We have been tasked with following Jesus, not sitting and doing nothing simply waiting until He returns.

This is a good word. But that is all I will respond to in this post.

 

[Michael Snow]

Hmm seems to me that a trial and wrath are two different things. But why argue about it because no one knows for sure, it's just interpretations.

Here is a key verse taken from context that is used in this argument. https://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2023/04/20/god-did-not-appoint-us-to-wrath/

 

[Michael Snow]

It is vitally important that when we study the text here that we extract from the text what it's saying. Don't add or insert things about the flood story into the way Jesus is using the flood story in what He is saying here. Pay careful attention.



No. The "they" here are the many who, at the time of the flood, were going about their lives as usual. They were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage. It was the ordinary things of life, people were going about their days doing what they always do, they were planning their future days, getting married, being given in marriage--to live out their lives having children, growing old, etc. That all was happening right until the very end, the day Noah entered the ark.



Again, Jesus' point is people will be going about their lives completely oblivious of what is about to happen. Two will be in the field, two will be at the grind mill. People are working fields, grinding grain, making food, going to work, etc. They are going about their lives in a completely ordinary way. But, when Judgment comes--when Jesus comes--it will be like the flood. It will be sudden and unexpected, it's not going to happen when we can predict it to happen. That's why all of this is sandwiched between Jesus saying, "Of that day and hour, no one knows" and also "Your Lord comes on a day you do not know"

What Jesus' followers have, that the world doesn't have, is watchfulness. To know that He will come, that there will be a Day of Judgment, Christ will return in all glory from heaven as Judge of the quick and the dead. And His coming is, for us, not something to be frightful of, but hopeful--for when He comes to judge, we shall be raised up, glorified in our very bodies, and enter into the eternal rest of God in the future ages of ages--new heavens and new earth. But for the wicked, His coming is to tread the wine press of God's wrath.

Therefore, what kind of people ought we be? Jesus tells us of the faithful and unfaithful servant, He tells us the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, He tells us the parable of the talents. We are to be the faithful servant, the wise virgin, to invest what we have been given. We have been tasked with following Jesus, not sitting and doing nothing simply waiting until He returns.

He will return, but we do not know when.
He will return, therefore we are to be busy.
He will return, and so we hope in the fullness of what God shall do.

Our hope, when He comes, is that we shall not be overwhelmed by the flood of His judgment, as the people in Noah's day were; but rather we have entered into the ark of His salvation, and shall pass through judgment and into life everlasting and world without end.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes.
Here is the text highlighted for context https://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2024/02/02/amen-i-want-to-be-left-behind/