PRE-Trib church to be raptured

[Pilgrim7]

hey what's up, its ezekiel

just wanted to say, i love you

if you read revelation closely, "if the Bible be true", with respect to all kinds of peoples out there.....

there will be 3 1/2 years of light suffering, than the rapture of the faithful, who have been striving too obey God

and than the woe woe woe will hit the earth, do you guys think we live in this time frame? Considering Black liives matters, covid-19, russia & ukraine, now Israel and palestine conflicts..... and of course, the many prisoners and people crying in Jail places....

just some thoughts, maybe it's a high time to repent of wickedness and render righteousness...

may God help us all.....




lastly, i had some thoughts about the end all be all of everything, theory of everything i guess... you would call it


it's just a thought, but, isn't God able to get more glory through saving everyone in all History, rather than just some


otherwise worship wouldn't be worship, it would be a tyrannical compeling of gratitude.... you feel what im saying? logically / philosophically speaking, but if everyone and everything is saved, and redeemed, i see genuine cause and grounds for authentic overflowing grateful worship

 

[Jermayn]

I'm not convince of any kind of rapture before the second coming of Jesus Christ. However, if it happens, I'm ready.

The Bible doesn't support any kind of doctrine that every man and woman will be saved. It's clear on eternal separation from God for those that reject his Son.

 

[Pilgrim7]

I'm not convince of any kind of rapture before the second coming of Jesus Christ. However, if it happens, I'm ready.

The Bible doesn't support any kind of doctrine that every man and woman will be saved. It's clear on eternal separation from God for those that reject his Son.

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Matthew 24:21-22
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

and by logic, i doubt your ready, for the blessed hope of God's return, would be burning in your heart, and you'd be aware of those promises at least.... lol, just being real yo

and concerning eternal seperation from God,
what about John 3:16? Namely the whosoever part

 

[Pilgrim7]

and yeah, christian to christian, we should be like, Ah, no doubt, no worries, john the baptist style, however it comes out ya know, iron to iron and rebukes and stuff

i myself.... am sadly well whatever the heck i am, lol

 

[Jermayn]

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Matthew 24:21-22
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

and by logic, i doubt your ready, for the blessed hope of God's return, would be burning in your heart, and you'd be aware of those promises at least.... lol, just being real yo

and concerning eternal seperation from God,
what about John 3:16? Namely the whosoever part

Show me anywhere in the Bible that God made someone vanish into thin are so they could avoid trial? I would say the nation of Israel would have vanished several times in the Old Testament if that's how this worked. That verse is most likely referring to God strengthening the faith of the believers so as not to accept false doctrine in the latter days or could even be God moving the believers to a geographic location free from the trials of the tribulation. The fact is, no one will know until it either happens, or the Tribulation starts and the Chruch is still here. Also, I hope you're not implying myself, or anyone else, are not followers of Jesus Christ simply because we don't hold the same view of the rapture as you. That's not how this works.

 

[Laodicean60]

Show me anywhere in the Bible that God made someone vanish into thin are so they could avoid trial?

Hmm seems to me that a trial and wrath are two different things. But why argue about it because no one knows for sure, it's just interpretations.

 

[Jermayn]

Hmm seems to me that a trial and wrath are two different things. But why argue about it because no one knows for sure, it's just interpretations.

The fact is, no one will know until it either happens, or the Tribulation starts and the Chruch is still here.

 

[Pekka]

Waiting for Jesus soooo much. Hope it is soon but not before we get all our close ones saved.

 

[Pilgrim7]

Show me anywhere in the Bible that God made someone vanish into thin are so they could avoid trial? I would say the nation of Israel would have vanished several times in the Old Testament if that's how this worked. That verse is most likely referring to God strengthening the faith of the believers so as not to accept false doctrine in the latter days or could even be God moving the believers to a geographic location free from the trials of the tribulation. The fact is, no one will know until it either happens, or the Tribulation starts and the Chruch is still here. Also, I hope you're not implying myself, or anyone else, are not followers of Jesus Christ simply because we don't hold the same view of the rapture as you. That's not how this works.

i respect you, no judgement here

 

[Pilgrim7]

i have a feeling that the Lord, for our joy, wants us to have real clues, of the rapture coming.....

just saying, it;s actually written in a few places, talking about a "special" people of obedience, that will be spared of a harsh earthly Time, one day

 

[com7fy8]

It seems we have had much worse trouble in the past. Genghis Khan came to Europe slaughtering numerous villages, according to my information. The bubonic plague killed hundreds of millions of people. And more than once Israel has been run out of the promised land and killed in much greater numbers than during the recent Hamas attack.

There is evil and it is going to its place of fire, and there are humans who are carrying the spirit of evil to where it is going. Evil people have this purpose, but may ones of them trust in Jesus.

Worship is not forced or caused by threats; God is not conceited but kind and appreciated by His children. I do not think of hell while I worship, but I am attentive to God and enjoy His love and peace and being with other children of God while I worship.

But Satan is the fake who gets worship in the form of fear and flattery.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I don't subscribe to the doctrine of Rapturism, or any aspect of Dispensationalist theology. This present age has always been one of wickedness, strife, tribulation, trouble. Because it's fundamentally broken--because we're broken. But God, in His compassionate forbearance has loved us in Christ since before the beginning, and in His great love wills that this world not fall to pieces but be repaired, healed, restored: Christ came, and in Him we are being repaired and restored, and God shall work to accomplish this--in the end all shall be made new (e.g. Acts 3:21, Isaiah 65:17, Revelation 21:1-5).

In fact Christ points to this indirectly in the Olivet Discourse, speaking of wars and rumors of wars, kingdom against kingdom, natural disasters, etc--but He says "this is not the end", instead calling them "birthpangs". Why does He call them birthpangs? The same reason St. Paul does in Romans 8:22. All creation groans, subject and held captive by sin and death, longing for redemption, the resurrection--when Christ returns and the dead are raised, it is the final strike against death and all its wretched tyranny, "Death is swallowed up in victory" says Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:54-55.

God, having not established us for wrath--for the wrath of God is already revealed through the Law on account of our sin (Romans 1:18, John 3:19-20, Romans 3:23); for by Adam sin and death came to all men; but by Christ has come resurrection from the dead and eternal life in Himself (Romans 5:12-21). So God out of His grace has brought us the abundance of life, His life, that we should have our life in Him by Christ. And so God has promised us hope, that we belonging to Christ should live forever, raised up on the last day (John 6:39-40, 1 Corinthians 15:20-24, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, Philippians 3:20-21).

We do not--and cannot--know when the Lord shall return, Christ our Lord said so, repeatedly, (e.g. Matthew 24:36-39), it is not for us, therefore, to k now times and seasons which the Father has in store (Acts 1:7), but to be the faithful servant (Matthew 25:14-30). And the Lord therefore tarries, not because God is slow in keeping His promise, but rather in His love wills that we should be saved (2 Peter 3:8-13).

In this world, the Lord said, we will have tribulation, but to be bold because Christ has already conquered it (John 16:33). In this we trust and have hope (1 Thessalonians 4:18). God is with us.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[oikonomia]

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Notice well that this could not apply to those of the church who have not kept the word of His perserverance. Since it is conditional
it is logical that some saved meet the condotion and some saved do not meet the condition.
"Because you have kept the word of My endurance . . . " is the reason for the reward of being kept from the hour of world wide trial.

None of us who live on the earth can avoid trials. None of us who are justified by faith and eternally redeemed can avoid trials.
Work, family, just living on earth involves trials. The wise Christian gains more Christ through every trial. The practice of availing himself
of the grace of trial builds up within him the perserverance. As the Christian goes through successive trials of life he learns to
"boast in triublation" even, knowing the love of God is poured out into his heart.

So this promise of pre-tribulation keeping is conditional. And the entire church either on earth living at that time or waiting
in paradise will not enjoy a pre-great tribulation rapture. But might IF we by practice learn to do what we OUGHT to do - keep
the word of His endurance daily, repeatedly, habitually, as a lifestyle.

The Lord will make a determination which he will rapture before the hour world wide trial and which He needs to
leave on the earth to learn to keep this word of His endurance.

 

[oikonomia]

Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth.

I come quickly; hold fast what you have that no one take your crown.

He who overcomes, him I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall by no means go out anymore, and I will write upon him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which descends out of heaven from My God, and My new name.
(Rev. 3:10-12 Recovery Version)

The condition here is not knowing the date of anything. But it is knowing how to keep the word of the Lord's endurance.
If course it helps to live expectantly that the Lord may come upon us at any moment.
But just knowing His return is immenent, though helpful, is not madatory. He knows.

We only know that at an hour we think not, He comes.

Those rewarded with pre-great tribulation rapture here already HAVE the crown of life. It is there watchfulness that no one take
from them what they have which is their task. This is the same as Colossians 2:18a.
Let no one defraud you by judging you unworthy of your prize,

Also the name Philadelphia meaning brotherly love is important key. These who have the crown are brethren
who love one another in Christ. The Lord therefore promises them they will no longer go in and out of this
fellowship. Rather they will becomes immovable pillars in His temple. They are living pillars intrinsically supportive of
the church.

He who overcomes, him I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall by no means go out anymore,

Every part of their being is under the possession of the Lord and His city New Jerusalem.
His name being written upon such "pillars" and the name of His city being written upon them show total ownership.
And it shows idenditication - the are to become the expression of God in man for His dwelling place and Bride of Christ.

, and I will write upon him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which descends out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

What a tremendous promise to those who overcome the degradation of the defeating mixture in Christianity.
And it is not as if they are spiritual giants. But the Lord says they have "a little power".
He does not look for them to be superspiritual. He does look to them to have brotherly love amongst them.
He looks for them not to have exalted any other name besides His.

I know your works; behold, I have put before you an opened door which no one can shut, because you have a little power and have kept My word and have not denied My name.

 

[oikonomia]

I don't subscribe to the doctrine of Rapturism, or any aspect of Dispensationalist theology. This present age has always been one of wickedness, strife, tribulation, trouble. Because it's fundamentally broken--because we're broken. But God, in His compassionate forbearance has loved us in Christ since before the beginning, and in His great love wills that this world not fall to pieces but be repaired, healed, restored: Christ came, and in Him we are being repaired and restored, and God shall work to accomplish this--in the end all shall be made new (e.g. Acts 3:21, Isaiah 65:17, Revelation 21:1-5).

The verses are great. But I don't see how any of this makes it not so that God would cause some of His church to be
taken and some to be left (taken latter after learning some lessons).

Everyone, whether whatever your position on rapture enjoy reading again in Spirit these passages, regardless.

At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt. 24:40-42)

Why would this be made impossible because of anything you describe in your first paragraph?

How does Acts 3:21 prevent rapture of those watching and ready?
Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of the restoration of all things, of which God spoke through the mouth of His holy prophets from of old.

How does Isaiah 65:17 make rapture of those watching and ready unlikely?
For I am now creating new heavens / And a new earth, / And the former things will not be remembered, / Nor will they come up in the heart.

How does Revelation 21:1-5 make rapture of those watching and ready not true ?
What you allude to in Revelation 21 and in Isaiah 65:17 is at least a thousand years after the close of the church age.

I don't understand how any of these peomises of God necessarily nullify His promise
to rapture those of the church watching and ready for His sudden unexpected taking of them away.

In fact Christ points to this indirectly in the Olivet Discourse, speaking of wars and rumors of wars, kingdom against kingdom, natural disasters, etc--but He says "this is not the end", instead calling them "birthpangs". Why does He call them birthpangs? The same reason St. Paul does in Romans 8:22. All creation groans, subject and held captive by sin and death, longing for redemption, the resurrection--when Christ returns and the dead are raised, it is the final strike against death and all its wretched tyranny, "Death is swallowed up in victory" says Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:54-55.

Again, I don't see how any of this makes Matthew 24:40-42 unbelievable.
I don't see the dichotomy that they two teachings are mutually exclusive.

We do not--and cannot--know when the Lord shall return, Christ our Lord said so, repeatedly, (e.g. Matthew 24:36-39), it is not for us, therefore, to k now times and seasons which the Father has in store (Acts 1:7), but to be the faithful servant (Matthew 25:14-30). And the Lord therefore tarries, not because God is slow in keeping His promise, but rather in His love wills that we should be saved (2 Peter 3:8-13).

I can see all this and agree.
That is why we need to LIVE by habit, by practice, daily as those watching (not the sky but for Him living in us).
That is why we are to LIVE as ready - not knowing this Righteous Lord may come for us at any hour in which we do not expect Him.

Can't we have both truths without making one fight down the other?

In this world, the Lord said, we will have tribulation, but to be bold because Christ has already conquered it (John 16:33). In this we trust and have hope (1 Thessalonians 4:18). God is with us.

-CryptoLutheran

But notice the Lord did not say some will be rewarded and have NO tribulation.
What He said was "Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth." (Rev. 3:10)

The implications are:
1.) Some have already been through many trials and have learned His endurance through them.
2.) Because they have already learned, a particular hour of world-wide trial is not needed for them.
3.) Because of their having learned His endurance they will be rewarded with not having to further experience this hour.

I think you rightly protest of a notion that God will allow absolutely NO difficuties to be gone through by Christians.
That would be a foolish concept of Rapture.

What I think it should remind us of is Paul's word in the basic book of Christian tenets - Romans.
Read carefully, and consider, as I know you will.

Therefore having been justified out of faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Through whom also we have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand and boast because of the hope of the glory of God.

And not only so, but we also boast in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces endurance;

And endurance, approvedness; and approvedness, hope;

And hope does not put us to shame, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. (Rom. 5:1-5)

Think of this as you consider the words "Because you have kept the word of My endurance . . . "

 

[oikonomia]

i have a feeling that the Lord, for our joy, wants us to have real clues, of the rapture coming.....

just saying, it;s actually written in a few places, talking about a "special" people of obedience, that will be spared of a harsh earthly Time, one day

They are not to be thought as "special". They should be thought of as normal.

They who are promised to be kept out of the hour of world wide trial as said to have "a little power".
because you have a little power and have kept My word and have not denied My name. (Rev. 3:8)

The crowning reward they already have. It is that they should guard that no one take it.
I come quickly; hold fast what you have that no one take your crown. (Rev. 3:11)

They are not super spiritual. But they have love for one another - Philadelphia.

These are those who overcome by the supply of the grace of Christ distributed to all believers.
They are not ABOVE the standard. They are simply AT the standard.

Rather than think of them as "special" it is better to think of the majority as abnormal.
It is to be expected by the Lord that the grace He has made available to all in the church be applied and enjoyed.
His grace is special. Our enjoyment of His grace is only expected to be our normal response.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The verses are great. But I don't see how any of this makes it not so that God would cause some of His church to be
taken and some to be left (taken latter after learning some lessons).

Everyone, whether whatever your position on rapture enjoy reading again in Spirit these passages, regardless.

At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt. 24:40-42)

Why would this be made impossible because of anything you describe in your first paragraph?

How does Acts 3:21 prevent rapture of those watching and ready?
Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of the restoration of all things, of which God spoke through the mouth of His holy prophets from of old.

How does Isaiah 65:17 make rapture of those watching and ready unlikely?
For I am now creating new heavens / And a new earth, / And the former things will not be remembered, / Nor will they come up in the heart.

How does Revelation 21:1-5 make rapture of those watching and ready not true ?
What you allude to in Revelation 21 and in Isaiah 65:17 is at least a thousand years after the close of the church age.

I don't understand how any of these peomises of God necessarily nullify His promise
to rapture those of the church watching and ready for His sudden unexpected taking of them away.


Again, I don't see how any of this makes Matthew 24:40-42 unbelievable.
I don't see the dichotomy that they two teachings are mutually exclusive.

I can see all this and agree.
That is why we need to LIVE by habit, by practice, daily as those watching (not the sky but for Him living in us).
That is why we are to LIVE as ready - not knowing this Righteous Lord may come for us at any hour in which we do not expect Him.

Can't we have both truths without making one fight down the other?


But notice the Lord did not say some will be rewarded and have NO tribulation.
What He said was "Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth." (Rev. 3:10)

The implications are:
1.) Some have already been through many trials and have learned His endurance through them.
2.) Because they have already learned, a particular hour of world-wide trial is not needed for them.
3.) Because of their having learned His endurance they will be rewarded with not having to further experience this hour.

I think you rightly protest of a notion that God will allow absolutely NO difficuties to be gone through by Christians.
That would be a foolish concept of Rapture.

What I think it should remind us of is Paul's word in the basic book of Christian tenets - Romans.
Read carefully, and consider, as I know you will.

Therefore having been justified out of faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Through whom also we have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand and boast because of the hope of the glory of God.

And not only so, but we also boast in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces endurance;

And endurance, approvedness; and approvedness, hope;

And hope does not put us to shame, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. (Rom. 5:1-5)

Think of this as you consider the words "Because you have kept the word of My endurance . . . "

Matthew 24:40-42 is talking about Christ's return in Judgment. That is made obvious by context, that's also the whole point of invoking Noah and the flood here.

There's nothing in Scripture that says God is going to take Christians into heaven and be spared a period of tribulation.

When Jesus returns, that's it, roll end credits to this present age of sin and death.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[oikonomia]

Matthew 24:40-42 is talking about Christ's return in Judgment. That is made obvious by context, that's also the whole point of invoking Noah and the flood here.

Thankyou. Allow me to discuss.
So like Noah we are being warned to be prepared and ready to brought by God into a realm of physical and spiritual safety.

For just as the days of Noah were, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day in which Noah entered into the ark,

Watch . . . to enter into the experience of being taken.
Rapture is:
1.) Conditional upon watching not automatic upon just regeneration.
2.) It corresponds to entering "into the ark".

Rapture here is not a matter physical removal APART from the removal of the psychological and spiritual HEART from that
place to be judged. This is unquestionably established in the example of Lot's wife.

Remember Lot’s wife.
Whoever seeks to preserve his soul-life will lose it, and whoever loses it will preserve it alive. (Luke 17:32,33)

You see, Lot's wife was physically removed from the place before judgment.
But it did her no good because psychologically she still was there in her heart.
Therefore the backward look which exposed her heart.

Lot's wife's "rapture" (of you will) was unsuccessful because she became a monument of shame- a pillar of salt.
"Remember Lot's wife" is the warning to all Christians who assume that as long their body is taken out of danger,
they are taken out of danger.

Here is where pop Rapture expositions either Pre or Post tribulation often fail badly. Ie. Hal Lindsey's best seller,
Left Behind screenplays.

So a lifestyle of practice is needed that our heart be removed by denying the self in favor of enjoying the Lord Jesus.
Whoever seeks to preserve his soul-life will lose it, and whoever loses it will preserve it alive. (Luke 17:33)
This has to refer to more than just initial re-birth of regeneration the portion of all real Christians.

That is what it is to "watch" in the way of "setting the mind on the spirit" and walking by the Spirit.

At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt. 24;40-42)

Lot's wife was watching in the wrong direction. And we who await rapture need to remember her result.
Missing a pre-tribulation rapture is not losing eternal redemption or eternal life.
But it will be as a shameful testimony to the world.

Those who are wise will realize the great tribulation is upon them.
And there is no room any longer in their heart to love the world.
May the Lord then have mercy on us that whatever and whenever things unfold, we be found in Him watching [ living unto Him ].

 

[oikonomia]

There's nothing in Scripture that says God is going to take Christians into heaven and be spared a period of tribulation.

There is scripture saying a corporate group of overcomers are caught up to His throne previous to the 3.5 years of the great
tribulation. And His throne there is in the third heavens. But this has to be brief and thus will be opened to much criticism at this point.

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev. 12;5)

It is escape no doubt for Satan seeks to devour such a remnant minority from coming forth.
And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bring forth, so that when she brings forth he might devour her child. (12:4b)

It is not only escape but also strategic advantage in spiritual warfare.
And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels. (vs. 5-7)

It is not only escape but proclamation that overcoming victory is finally been achieved by at least a remnant
of the universal body of Christ, like Gideon's small army of 300 was a victory on behalf of the whole nation of Israel.
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death. (vs. 10,11)

To summarize:
1.) Pre-great tribulation rapture is conditional upon saints watching [living in Spirit].
It is not the rapture of those who will not HEED to watch along with those who HEED to watch.

2.) Pre-great tribulation rapture is not so supeficial to mean just one's body is removed.
The lesson of Lot's wife is that inwardly in heart one has to have been removed.

3.) Pre-great tribulation rapture is escape. But it is also stragetic advantage in spiritual warfare.

4.) Pre-great tribulation rapture is a vindication of at least a portion of to total church.
For them subjectively the kingdom of God has practically arrived.

I hope that you will digest these points well before you offer the standard objections
leveled at pop presentations like "Late Great Planet Earth" or "Left Behind" books and movies.

Please do not respond with the standard knee-jerk "no pre-trib rapture" arguments without understanding these biblical caveats.
What I presented is not from mainline religious entertainment. It is strictly from the word of God. If you understand me, then
examine by all means if these things are so.

When Jesus returns, that's it, roll end credits to this present age of sin and death.

-CryptoLutheran

Amen to this eventually in His own timing.

When Jesus returns most people on earth will think it is too soon rather than too late.
So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time to those who eagerly await Him, apart from sin, unto salvation. (Heb. 9:28)

 

[Riot42]

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats at the end of time (Matthew 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the coming of the Lord is in the last day at the judgment of all mankind at the end of time:

the last day (end of time) = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)