The Rapture will happen in the middle of the Tribulation

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Please. People don't hide from "the Face" if they don't SEE the Face.

Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn/wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
That mourning and wailing and fleeing and hiding is due to seeing what they don't want to see.

Nonsense.

Revelation 7 says no such thing! You're adding your presumption to the Word

Rev 1:7 is a 2A verse, not a rapture verse.

There's no proof Jesus' face is shown in Rev 6:16. The person making the statement about His face is a degenerate unbeliever. His credibility is therefore zero.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

God's wrath provably begins in the 2nd seal with wars. I already proved to you that wars are a certified form of God's wrath. Therefore, you can't deny that 1 Th 1:10 is about the pre-Trib rapture.

We won't see Jesus until we pass through the clouds of 1 Th 4:17, to see Jesus in the air. That's what 1 Th 4:17 proves.

Furthermore, you are violating the sequence of the ascension that will have Jesus follow the reverse sequence (Acts 1:11). Jesus ascended in view of believers, only (His disciples). Jesus went into clouds, then into Heaven. His descension must follow the reverse sequence (Acts 1:11). 1 Th 4:16 says He descends. 1 Th 4:17 says we will see Jesus after we pass through clouds to see Him in the air. Jesus is therefore ALWAYS behind clouds during the rapture.

My statements are supported 100% by the verses cited. I am not adding to anything in the Bible.

Rev 1:7 is a 2A verse. It can't possibly be a rapture verse because it doesn't align with Acts 1:11, 1 Th 4:16-17, and John 14:3.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Please. People don't hide from "the Face" if they don't SEE the Face.

Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn/wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
That mourning and wailing and fleeing and hiding is due to seeing what they don't want to see.

Nonsense.

Revelation 7 says no such thing! You're adding your presumption to the Word

2 Th 2:1 is about the rapture because it's about Jesus coming and INSTANTLY rapturing us to Heaven. Here is 2 Th 2:1 (ESV): Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, ... ----- "Our being gathered together to him" in 2 Th 2:1 is the same rapture in John 14:3 and 1 Th 4:16-17.

Here is John 14:3 (ESV): ... I will come again and will take you to myself, ... ---- There, again, Jesus will come and instantly rapture us to Heaven.

1 Th 4:16-17 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend ... 17 we ... will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, ---- There again, Jesus will come and INSTANTLY rapture us to Heaven.

All three of those verses are about Jesus coming and INSTANTLY rapturing us to Heaven, because they are about the same pre-Trib rapture.

 

[WilliamLhk]

God's wrath provably begins in the 2nd seal with wars. I already proved to you that wars are a certified form of God's wrath. Therefore, you can't deny that 1 Th 1:10 is about the pre-Trib rapture.

Please don't tell me what I can't do.

1 Th 1:10 is about "Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come." Says absolutely nothing about a pre-tribulation rapture. The over-and-over again problem with the pre-trib theorists is that they add so many presumptions into what the Word actually says.

In this case, the presumption is that the trib and the wrath are the same thing. Whereas Scripture no where says that.

1 Th 4:17 says we will see Jesus after we pass through clouds to see Him in the air. Jesus is therefore ALWAYS behind clouds during the rapture.

Again, the verse says no such thing. We will be caught up "in clouds" -- your "we pass through clouds to see Him" is another one of your additions to the Word.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Please don't tell me what I can't do.

1 Th 1:10 is about "Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come." Says absolutely nothing about a pre-tribulation rapture. The over-and-over again problem with the pre-trib theorists is that they add so many presumptions into what the Word actually says.

In this case, the presumption is that the trib and the wrath are the same thing. Whereas Scripture no where says that.

Again, the verse says no such thing. We will be caught up "in clouds" -- your "we pass through clouds to see Him" is another one of your additions to the Word.

1 Th 1:10 says "Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come" ----- means we are rescued before the earliest wrath in the Trib (2nd seal), before it's about to happen.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. ----- Where is Jesus right now? The "I will come again and will take you to myself" means Jesus will come and INSTANTLY rapture us to Heaven.

1 Th 4:16-17:

2 Th 2:1 is about the rapture because it's about Jesus coming and INSTANTLY rapturing us to Heaven. Here is 2 Th 2:1 (ESV): Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, ... ----- "Our being gathered together to him" in 2 Th 2:1 is the same rapture in John 14:3 and 1 Th 4:16-17.

Here is John 14:3 (ESV): ... I will come again and will take you to myself, ... ---- There, again, Jesus will come and instantly rapture us to Heaven.

1 Th 4:16-17 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend ... 17 we ... will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, ---- There again, Jesus will come and INSTANTLY rapture us to Heaven.

All three of those verses are about Jesus coming and INSTANTLY rapturing us to Heaven, because they are about the same pre-Trib rapture.

William, I really think you're smart and can see that Rev 1:7 is about the 2A only, as it aligns fully with Matt 24:30, which is only about the 2A.

Rev 1:7 can't align with 1 Th 4:16-17. There is only one location cited in those two verses where we will be when we first see Jesus. That's in verse 17 (NIV): After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

We will be IN the clouds, not ON the clouds. Jesus is first seeable by us when we are "in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." That proves Jesus is not seeable by folks on Earth. After all, they won't be there to pass through those same clouds that we must pass through before we can see Jesus in the air. So, Rev 1:7 can't apply to the rapture. It only applies to the 2A.

 

[WilliamLhk]

William, I really think you're smart and can see that Rev 1:7 is about the 2A only, as it aligns fully with Matt 24:30, which is only about the 2A.

Wrong on both counts. Saying it is not proving it.

Rev 1:7 can't align with 1 Th 4:16-17. There is only one location cited in those two verses where we will be when we first see Jesus. That's in verse 17 (NIV): After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.23

We will be IN the clouds, not ON the clouds. Jesus is first seeable by us when we are "in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." That proves Jesus is not seeable by folks on Earth.

Presumptions upon presumptions. You just can't get past your own preconceptions to get an objective view. Nothing here says that Jesus will be unseeable on earth before we are caught up. You presume these clouds are physical clouds; text doesn't say that.

You completely ignore the fact that Matthew 24 (verses 3, 27, 36) say that prophecy is about the Parousia of the Lord. As is 1 Thes. 4:14. As is 2 Thes. 2:1, 8. As is 1 Corinthians 15:23, about the resurrection of the dead. ALL of these prophetic events (and more) ARE THE PAROUSIA OF THE LORD. There is only ONE Parousia.

To deny the complete unity of all these scriptures about the event of Christ's Parousia is to completely misunderstand the events of the End Time prophecies.

The Parousia of the Son of Man

Index and summaries of all articles is here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1403-index-and-summaries-of-articles/ The Parousia of the Son of Man The Greek term παρουσíα/parousia has become a stumbling block to many in the modern Church, particularly so among those who teach a p...

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[Jeffrey Bowden]

Wrong on both counts. Saying it is not proving it.

Presumptions upon presumptions. You just can't get past your own preconceptions to get an objective view. Nothing here says that Jesus will be unseeable on earth before we are caught up. You presume these clouds are physical clouds; text doesn't say that.

You completely ignore the fact that Matthew 24 (verses 3, 27, 36) say that prophecy is about the Parousia of the Lord. As is 1 Thes. 4:14. As is 2 Thes. 2:1, 8. As is 1 Corinthians 15:23, about the resurrection of the dead. ALL of these prophetic events (and more) ARE THE PAROUSIA OF THE LORD. There is only ONE Parousia.

To deny the complete unity of all these scriptures about the event of Christ's Parousia is to completely misunderstand the events of the End Time prophecies.

The Parousia of the Son of Man

Index and summaries of all articles is here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1403-index-and-summaries-of-articles/ The Parousia of the Son of Man The Greek term παρουσíα/parousia has become a stumbling block to many in the modern Church, particularly so among those who teach a p...

www.worthychristianforums.com

Wrong on both counts. Saying it is not proving it.

Presumptions upon presumptions. You just can't get past your own preconceptions to get an objective view. Nothing here says that Jesus will be unseeable on earth before we are caught up. You presume these clouds are physical clouds; text doesn't say that.

You completely ignore the fact that Matthew 24 (verses 3, 27, 36) say that prophecy is about the Parousia of the Lord. As is 1 Thes. 4:14. As is 2 Thes. 2:1, 8. As is 1 Corinthians 15:23, about the resurrection of the dead. ALL of these prophetic events (and more) ARE THE PAROUSIA OF THE LORD. There is only ONE Parousia.

To deny the complete unity of all these scriptures about the event of Christ's Parousia is to completely misunderstand the events of the End Time prophecies.

The Parousia of the Son of Man

Index and summaries of all articles is here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1403-index-and-summaries-of-articles/ The Parousia of the Son of Man The Greek term παρουσíα/parousia has become a stumbling block to many in the modern Church, particularly so among those who teach a p...

www.worthychristianforums.com

The idiocy of The Parousia of the Son of Man is it says both the 2A and the rapture are the parousia. That is idiocy. Good bye,

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Wrong on both counts. Saying it is not proving it.

Presumptions upon presumptions. You just can't get past your own preconceptions to get an objective view. Nothing here says that Jesus will be unseeable on earth before we are caught up. You presume these clouds are physical clouds; text doesn't say that.

You completely ignore the fact that Matthew 24 (verses 3, 27, 36) say that prophecy is about the Parousia of the Lord. As is 1 Thes. 4:14. As is 2 Thes. 2:1, 8. As is 1 Corinthians 15:23, about the resurrection of the dead. ALL of these prophetic events (and more) ARE THE PAROUSIA OF THE LORD. There is only ONE Parousia.

To deny the complete unity of all these scriptures about the event of Christ's Parousia is to completely misunderstand the events of the End Time prophecies.

The Parousia of the Son of Man

Index and summaries of all articles is here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1403-index-and-summaries-of-articles/ The Parousia of the Son of Man The Greek term παρουσíα/parousia has become a stumbling block to many in the modern Church, particularly so among those who teach a p...

www.worthychristianforums.com

Are these presumptions?

These verses all say the same thing: I will come again ... and our being gathered / will take you / will be caught up / was lifted up / Come up here!

2 Th 2:1 (ESV): ... the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him,

John 14:3 (ESV): ... I will come again and will take you to myself, ...

1 Th 4:16-17 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven ... 17 Then we ... will be caught up ... in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air,

Jesus was raptured into Heaven in Acts 1:9-11 (ESV): And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Apostle John was raptured into Heaven BEFORE he was shown the events of the 7-year Trib. Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

 

[WilliamLhk]

The idiocy of The Parousia of the Son of Man is it says both the 2A and the rapture are the parousia. That is idiocy. Good bye,

Viewed once again from the point of view of the presumptions of the pre-trib dogma, which presumptions you cling to as scriptural. But they are only doctrines of men.

 

[WilliamLhk]

Are these presumptions?

These verses all say the same thing: I will come again ... and our being gathered / will take you / will be caught up / was lifted up / Come up here!

2 Th 2:1 (ESV): ... the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him,

John 14:3 (ESV): ... I will come again and will take you to myself, ...

1 Th 4:16-17 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven ... 17 Then we ... will be caught up ... in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air,

Jesus was raptured into Heaven in Acts 1:9-11 (ESV): And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

These are scriptures. Upon which presumptions are imposed by the pre-trib doctrine. Note that Jesus will return down to and stand upon the Mount of Olives, fulfilling Zech. 14. So this is not a rapture prophecy for the Church, but a deliverance prophecy for Israel.

Apostle John was raptured into Heaven BEFORE he was shown the events of the 7-year Trib. Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Nothing in Rev. 4 even hints about a seven year period. Your presumption.

And the translation is inaccurate; it literally begins saying "After these things," and ends with "after these things." "These things" being the Church Age. We maybe agree on that.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

These are scriptures. Upon which presumptions are imposed by the pre-trib doctrine. Note that Jesus will return down to and stand upon the Mount of Olives, fulfilling Zech. 14. So this is not a rapture prophecy for the Church, but a deliverance prophecy for Israel.

Nothing in Rev. 4 even hints about a seven year period. Your presumption.

And the translation is inaccurate; it literally begins saying "After these things," and ends with "after these things." "These things" being the Church Age. We maybe agree on that.

Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

John was raptured to Heaven to prove the Trib starts after we are raptured.

Rev 4 flows through chapter 5 and into chapter 6 when the Trib starts by the opening of the 1st seal (Rev 6:1-2).

 

[WilliamLhk]

John was raptured to Heaven to prove the Trib starts after we are raptured.

In your beliefs. But the actual scripture doesn't say anything about the Trib, nor about the Church being caught up, only John. If it meant the Church, then the verbs in 4:1 would be in the plural, but they aren't, they're only in the singular.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

In your beliefs. But the actual scripture doesn't say anything about the Trib, nor about the Church being caught up, only John. If it meant the Church, then the verbs in 4:1 would be in the plural, but they aren't, they're only in the singular.

Rev 4:1 (ESV) ends with: ... “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

"You" is to whomever Jesus says those glorious words.

Rev 11:12 (ESV) uses identical wording: Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

That works for any number of believers, even a couple billion at once.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

In your beliefs. But the actual scripture doesn't say anything about the Trib, nor about the Church being caught up, only John. If it meant the Church, then the verbs in 4:1 would be in the plural, but they aren't, they're only in the singular.

Paul was speaking in 2 Th 2:1 (Geneva Bible): Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

2 Th 2:2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

"That day" in verse 3 refers back to "the day of the Lord" in verse 2. Therefore, it is unmistakable that these three verses are about the pre-Trib timing of the rapture.

Liddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon gives two definitions for "apostasia" [which is in the Greek verse 3]: (1) defection; revolt; and (2) departure; disappearance. Which definition fits verse 3, when we know for sure the context is the rapture?

 

[WilliamLhk]

Rev 4:1 (ESV) ends with: ... “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

"You" is to whomever Jesus says those glorious words.

Rev 11:12 (ESV) uses identical wording: Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

No, it does not. The verb in 4:1 is in the singular, whereas the verb in Rev. 11:12 is in the plural.

One of the few advantages of reading the KJV is that it shows this difference between singular and plural verbs; whereas newer versions such as the ESV do not. Leaving one needing to consult the Greek text to find out. (You is plural, never singular, in classical English. Thou is singular.)

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

No, it does not. The verb in 4:1 is in the singular, whereas the verb in Rev. 11:12 is in the plural.

One of the few advantages of reading the KJV is that it shows this difference between singular and plural verbs; whereas newer versions such as the ESV do not. Leaving one needing to consult the Greek text to find out. (You is plural, never singular, in classical English. Thou is singular.)

The identical wording is "Come up here." Both are raptures to Heaven. Rev 4 and beyond are entirely prophecy about the future end times. That means Rev 4:1 is still going to happen, except when it happens, it will be us going up to Heaven. Jesus was demonstrating the pre-Trib rapture. We then watch the Trib unfold, for real, just as was shown to John and recorded in the rest of Revelation.

 

[WilliamLhk]

The identical wording is "Come up here." Both are raptures to Heaven. Rev 4 and beyond are entirely prophecy about the future end times. That means Rev 4:1 is still going to happen, except when it happens, it will be us going up to Heaven. Jesus was demonstrating the pre-Trib rapture. We then watch the Trib unfold, for real, just as was shown to John and recorded in the rest of Revelation.

More unsubstantiated claims. Moving on, thanks for the discussion.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

More unsubstantiated claims. Moving on, thanks for the discussion.

If you would read Rev 4-6, you will see they are 100% in the future. John was shown what we will witness, for real.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

More unsubstantiated claims. Moving on, thanks for the discussion.

So, where do the 2W go in Rev 11:12, if not to Heaven?